Danny Williams - murder or suicide? - Sitcoms Online Message Boards

justins5256 · 10-05-2008, 02:36 PM

I was thinking about this case today and decided to do a search on the boards. I was surprised to see that there hasn't been a whole lot of discussion about it. There were a few threads where some folks had said they thought Williams was murdered and the investigation botched but unfortunately, the discussions didn't elaborate much beyond that.

So, I would like to open this as a possible topic for discussion.

A quick recap (Feel free to correct any mistakes. I'm going from memory here) - Danny Williams was found shot to death in his home in Illinois(?) in 1991. Danny was in his early twenties, I believe, and while the segment didn't elaborate much on his personal life it didn't seem as though Danny had any enemies or obvious problems. His body was discovered by his father, who went to check on him after not hearing from Danny for a couple days. Danny was found in a sitting position on the couch with the gun in his lap and a bullet wound to the head. The police ruled his death a suicide. However, the family believed otherwise and hired a PI and a ballistics expert to examine Danny's death more closely.

- The PI found neighbors who claimed they had seen an unidentified woman and an unidentified man on Danny's property at two different times before the discovery of Danny's body. The police claim they interviewed the neighbors and came to believe they were mistaken about the days they saw these people on the property. The unidentified woman might have even been Danny's mother.

- The ballistics expert took detailed measurements of the living room and tried to establish the trajectory of the fatal bullet. He was unable to do so in a manner that would have resulted in Danny's body being found the way it was - in an upright sitting position with the gun in his lap. The police maintained they also checked the trajectory and found it matched the suicide theory.

- Most compelling of all, the ballistics expert found traces of blood at the scene. The police found this blood as well and identified it as Danny's. However, the expert hired by Danny's family said there were two distinct blood types present at two different locations in the house. I believe the blood types were A and O. Danny had type A blood. The type O sample could not be linked to anyone known to be in the house. However, the police claim their crime lab analysis did NOT find any type O blood in the house.

- Danny's father claims he found a shell casing in the couch on which Danny's body was found. The shell from the bullet that killed Danny had been recovered, so where did this additional shell come from?

- In the weeks prior to Danny's death he had had an argument with his girlfriend and made a comment about shooting himself in the head. He had a gun and actually fired it, though not at himself - I don't think the segment elaborated on where this incident happened, so it may or may not be related to the additional shell casing found in the couch.

The biggest problem with the case seems to be that there is no obvious motive for someone to kill Danny - a fact that even the family acknowledges.

So, what do you guys think?

Cori aka ChrisSCrush · 10-06-2008, 03:27 AM

Did the expert save the Type O blood sample and can it be DNA tested?

justins5256 · 03-12-2009, 03:41 PM

bump

MegtheEgg86 · 03-12-2009, 04:32 PM

I think Danny Williams committed suicide.

There certainly have been plenty of homicides staged to look like suicides by posing the victim in a seated position, with the weapon either in the victim's lap, the seat, or the floor nearby. Geberth's Practical Homicide Investigation (essentially the bible for many, many law enforcement agencies on the subject) specifically addresses this and provides examples of faked and actual suicides involving a seated victim and handgun. As a matter of fact (and this is purely anecdotal, of course), I have seen more than one police entry examination presenting a seated-victim-handgun-suicide illustration, showing such detail as bullet holes in the wall and the position of the fallen weapon; examinees must choose the most probable cause of the victim's death according to his or her interpretation of the scene. Often, they're clearly faked suicides.

My point is that unless those police officials are grossly, grossly incompetent, it would be very difficult for them to botch that investigation. If law enforcement agencies receive constant training on the matter, and if some of them feel comfortable presenting that particular scenario to applicants who often have never had any sort of investigative training whatsoever in their lives, I have a very difficult time believing they could unwittingly bungle the entire thing. That particular scene is very, very easy (in relation to others) to determine a homicide or suicide.

Of course, the agency could be corrupt. But why purposely mishandle Williams' investigation? There's no motive.

Just because no one in the house had type O blood does not mean whoever was in the house with type O blood (assuming there was) committed Williams' murder. I would be curious as to the nature of the samples: how large were they? Where, exactly, were they discovered? Are both as fresh as the crime scene? Why did the police not find any type O blood? There's a lot to be learned there.

In some suicide-by-firearm cases, the victim will "test fire" the weapon before turning it on him- or herself. That would explain the second casing found in the couch.

It's circumstantial, but Williams did threaten suicide in the weeks before his death, and was apparently comfortable enough with firearms to utilize one.

And, of course, no known individual had any known motive to kill him.

Suicide.

TracyLynnS · 03-12-2009, 05:56 PM

If I ever decide to kill myself, and you never know but it could happen, I've had lyme disease for 23 years now, and a heart condition that has seriously gotten worse over the last 2 years, (not to mention that I live in michigan, lost my job, DH lost his job, we lost our house and the hundred grand we put down on it, lost our savings, lost our retirement, and even lost three old cars that were paid off), but anyway, if I were to decide that it's time to for me to go, I'd leave a note.

But maybe that's just because I'm a wordy person. Like you guys couldn't already tell that from all the ridiculously long posts I'm always writing on here...

So... I would want to write a note, and let my family and friends know why I was leaving, and what I would want done with my body, funeral, and other things. (I'm 41, I haven't gotten my will and final arrangements together yet, so I'd have to do that in my exit letter.)

I guess some people just get really emotional or have a huge moment of passion where they just kill themselves without thinking it through and then it just cruelly leaves their loved ones behind wondering what happened.

There's no explanation or clear idea of what the circumstances were. That's a horrible thing to make your family endure on top of dealing with your death. If I may be so rude as to say this, it's just very selfish.

Mastermind · 03-13-2009, 01:17 PM

The problem I have with the suicide theory is the manner in which the gun was found.

It was found so neatly in his lap and not laying on the floor or on the coach.

Quote:

So... I would want to write a note, and let my family and friends know why I was leaving, and what I would want done with my body, funeral, and other things. (I'm 41, I haven't gotten my will and final arrangements together yet, so I'd have to do that in my exit letter.)

You would think so, but a lot of people committ suicide without notes and suddenly. Usually for the reason that they don't want to lose the nerve. if you start writing a suicide note, you might start thinking about your family and decide not to go ahead with the act.

It's important to keep in mind that this case is classified as unexplained death, not suicide or murder.

A big question in this case, is if that old busybody neighbor was just confused or if there was actually a woman that picked up Danny that day.

A point that got overlooked in this case, is that Danny's family was pretty wealthy and had a prosperous business. i wonder if there were any enemies they may have cultivated during that time.

TracyLynnS · 03-13-2009, 02:43 PM

I've heard a lot of people say that if you commit suicide with a gun, your hand will grip the gun and hold on to it in a natural nerve reaction. I find that hard to believe. I've seen people knocked unconcious (no gun involved) and they go completely limp, immediately. Seems like a gunshot to the head would have a similar effect.

Danny's gun was a 9mm. I've never shot one of those. Aren't they similar to a .45 in size and action?

A .45, if not held firmly will kick right back and show you who's boss. I imagine that if someone used that kind of a weapon to shoot themselves in the head, the gun would recoil violently and fly out of their hand, landing a good distance away. Not far away, but definitely not neatly in their lap or still in their hand with their hand resting in their lap.

Now, maybe a little .22 semi auto would be wimpy enough to land close to the body after a suicide shot to the head, but even my .22 revolver has enough recoil to land a foot or more away if I were to relax my body (as if suiciding) after shooting it. (Revolvers tend to have a bit more recoil than semi-autos because of the way semi autos are designed.)

I always thought those neat little "gun in the hand, shot to the head" suicides looked staged by a murderer.

My favorite was the stupid husband who half shoved a glove on his wife's hand, shot her to death, laid the gun on the floor, turned up the heat in the room where the body was, and covered her up with lots of blankets to try to fool the medical examiner on the time of death, while he ran around doing his errands in town. Who the heck lays on the couch and halfway puts on a gardening glove before shooting themselves to death? That husband was a bumbling criminal for sure.

Apostapler · 03-14-2009, 05:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TracyLynnS

My favorite was the stupid husband who half shoved a glove on his wife's hand, shot her to death, laid the gun on the floor, turned up the heat in the room where the body was, and covered her up with lots of blankets to try to fool the medical examiner on the time of death, while he ran around doing his errands in town. Who the heck lays on the couch and halfway puts on a gardening glove before shooting themselves to death? That husband was a bumbling criminal for sure.

I'm not familiar with that one. Do you have more info or a link?

TracyLynnS · 03-14-2009, 09:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Apostapler

I'm not familiar with that one. Do you have more info or a link?

I don't think that was ever on UM. Let me go search around and see what I can find. I don't remember the names, state, or anything, so it will take a while.

I'm pretty sure they had kids together, but I can't remember if they were school age, seems like they were.

And I've even forgotten what the motive was, but it might have been insurance money.

MegtheEgg86 · 03-14-2009, 02:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TracyLynnS

Danny's gun was a 9mm. I've never shot one of those. Aren't they similar to a .45 in size and action?

A 9mm is nowhere close to a .45 as far as recoil is concerned. I learned how to shoot handguns with a 9, and boy oh boy, should I have started out with something bigger than a .38. A 9mm starts to feel a lot like a .22 after you're used to .40's and .45's.

TracyLynnS · 03-14-2009, 08:07 PM

Okay, so in theory then, with the recoil of a 9mm, the gun would have fallen close to the body, maybe similar to what would happen with a .22, but it wouldn't have fallen in his lap, and imo, definitely not held in his hand in his lap.

Yep, I'm suspicious...

MissFit29 · 03-29-2009, 12:09 PM

I think the suspect in this case would be his girlfriend. No one else heard him make any threats of suicide except her. Also, is there proof that he actually discharged a weapon, as she claims? I'm inclined to think that she's involved somehow. The nosy neighbor saw him get into a car with a woman.

Danny was worth money from his family's clothing business. Maybe she wanted to be married into the family to have a claim to it. He doesn't want to marry her. She kills him in a fit of rage. Maybe that's stretching it, but I really don't think it's suicide. If Danny shot himself in the head, there would be a lot of visible blood in the room. Danny's dad didn't see any blood when he found Danny.

The whole scene just seemed to be a setup. I don't believe it was a suicide.

Mastermind · 03-29-2009, 12:44 PM

It's been a while since watching it but the bullet wound was in the front of his head, no?

Don't people commit suiced with the gun to the side of their head , or in the mouth?

Apostapler · 03-29-2009, 04:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mastermind

It's been a while since watching it but the bullet wound was in the front of his head, no?

Don't people commit suiced with the gun to the side of their head , or in the mouth?

Normally yes. Turning a gun on yourself and shooting yourself in the forehead is not a comfortable or natural position in which to discharge the gun.

TracyLynnS · 03-29-2009, 05:42 PM

I watched a real detectives eppy (or similar show) the other day about Ray Beagle, the guy in FL who, back in 1993, killed two hunters for their pocket money. He suicided with a hand gun in the police station bathroom while he had been to see the cops for questioning.

He had barricaded himself in the bathroom during a break in the questioning, proceeded to have a shootout with the cops, then after writing on the walls and singing out loud, he killed himself.

What I thought was interesting was that in the re-enactment, the real police chief was interviewed and they showed what was said to be the real bathroom where it all happened. It was very small. Just a small private room with one toilet and a sink. It wasn't a big bathroom with seperate stalls. It was small and cramped.

When they re-enacted the scene of Ray's suicide, the cop said that Ray had been crouched on the floor by the toilet after exchanging gunfire. After he shot himself, the camera showed the pistol falling into the toilet.

I don't know if it really happened that way or if they were using artistic license, but I thought it was interesting that the suicide victim was in such close proximity to the toilet (crouched next to it on the floor) and immediately after the fatal shot, the gun isn't clutched in his grip, but his hand relaxes in death and he drops it.

10-05-2008, 02:36 PM	#1
justins5256 Member Forum 3000 Club Member Join Date: Aug 08, 2002 Posts: 3,866	Danny Williams - murder or suicide? I was thinking about this case today and decided to do a search on the boards. I was surprised to see that there hasn't been a whole lot of discussion about it. There were a few threads where some folks had said they thought Williams was murdered and the investigation botched but unfortunately, the discussions didn't elaborate much beyond that. So, I would like to open this as a possible topic for discussion. A quick recap (Feel free to correct any mistakes. I'm going from memory here) - Danny Williams was found shot to death in his home in Illinois(?) in 1991. Danny was in his early twenties, I believe, and while the segment didn't elaborate much on his personal life it didn't seem as though Danny had any enemies or obvious problems. His body was discovered by his father, who went to check on him after not hearing from Danny for a couple days. Danny was found in a sitting position on the couch with the gun in his lap and a bullet wound to the head. The police ruled his death a suicide. However, the family believed otherwise and hired a PI and a ballistics expert to examine Danny's death more closely. - The PI found neighbors who claimed they had seen an unidentified woman and an unidentified man on Danny's property at two different times before the discovery of Danny's body. The police claim they interviewed the neighbors and came to believe they were mistaken about the days they saw these people on the property. The unidentified woman might have even been Danny's mother. - The ballistics expert took detailed measurements of the living room and tried to establish the trajectory of the fatal bullet. He was unable to do so in a manner that would have resulted in Danny's body being found the way it was - in an upright sitting position with the gun in his lap. The police maintained they also checked the trajectory and found it matched the suicide theory. - Most compelling of all, the ballistics expert found traces of blood at the scene. The police found this blood as well and identified it as Danny's. However, the expert hired by Danny's family said there were two distinct blood types present at two different locations in the house. I believe the blood types were A and O. Danny had type A blood. The type O sample could not be linked to anyone known to be in the house. However, the police claim their crime lab analysis did NOT find any type O blood in the house. - Danny's father claims he found a shell casing in the couch on which Danny's body was found. The shell from the bullet that killed Danny had been recovered, so where did this additional shell come from? - In the weeks prior to Danny's death he had had an argument with his girlfriend and made a comment about shooting himself in the head. He had a gun and actually fired it, though not at himself - I don't think the segment elaborated on where this incident happened, so it may or may not be related to the additional shell casing found in the couch. The biggest problem with the case seems to be that there is no obvious motive for someone to kill Danny - a fact that even the family acknowledges. So, what do you guys think?

03-12-2009, 04:32 PM	#4
MegtheEgg86 Member Forum Veteran Join Date: Jun 19, 2008 Location: The Volunteer State Posts: 5,156	I think Danny Williams committed suicide. There certainly have been plenty of homicides staged to look like suicides by posing the victim in a seated position, with the weapon either in the victim's lap, the seat, or the floor nearby. Geberth's Practical Homicide Investigation (essentially the bible for many, many law enforcement agencies on the subject) specifically addresses this and provides examples of faked and actual suicides involving a seated victim and handgun. As a matter of fact (and this is purely anecdotal, of course), I have seen more than one police entry examination presenting a seated-victim-handgun-suicide illustration, showing such detail as bullet holes in the wall and the position of the fallen weapon; examinees must choose the most probable cause of the victim's death according to his or her interpretation of the scene. Often, they're clearly faked suicides. My point is that unless those police officials are grossly, grossly incompetent, it would be very difficult for them to botch that investigation. If law enforcement agencies receive constant training on the matter, and if some of them feel comfortable presenting that particular scenario to applicants who often have never had any sort of investigative training whatsoever in their lives, I have a very difficult time believing they could unwittingly bungle the entire thing. That particular scene is very, very easy (in relation to others) to determine a homicide or suicide. Of course, the agency could be corrupt. But why purposely mishandle Williams' investigation? There's no motive. Just because no one in the house had type O blood does not mean whoever was in the house with type O blood (assuming there was) committed Williams' murder. I would be curious as to the nature of the samples: how large were they? Where, exactly, were they discovered? Are both as fresh as the crime scene? Why did the police not find any type O blood? There's a lot to be learned there. In some suicide-by-firearm cases, the victim will "test fire" the weapon before turning it on him- or herself. That would explain the second casing found in the couch. It's circumstantial, but Williams did threaten suicide in the weeks before his death, and was apparently comfortable enough with firearms to utilize one. And, of course, no known individual had any known motive to kill him. Suicide.
	__________________ "Why is she lying?, it makes me wonder. What is she hiding?, it makes me wonder." Go Vols!

10-06-2008, 03:27 AM	#2
Cori aka ChrisSCrush Member Senior Member Join Date: Dec 30, 2001 Location: USA and still trying to be proud of it! Posts: 2,068	Did the expert save the Type O blood sample and can it be DNA tested?

03-12-2009, 03:41 PM	#3
justins5256 Member Forum 3000 Club Member Join Date: Aug 08, 2002 Posts: 3,866	bump

03-12-2009, 05:56 PM	#5
TracyLynnS Don't Look Up Forum 3000 Club Member Join Date: Jan 07, 2009 Posts: 3,107	If I ever decide to kill myself, and you never know but it could happen, I've had lyme disease for 23 years now, and a heart condition that has seriously gotten worse over the last 2 years, (not to mention that I live in michigan, lost my job, DH lost his job, we lost our house and the hundred grand we put down on it, lost our savings, lost our retirement, and even lost three old cars that were paid off), but anyway, if I were to decide that it's time to for me to go, I'd leave a note. But maybe that's just because I'm a wordy person. Like you guys couldn't already tell that from all the ridiculously long posts I'm always writing on here... So... I would want to write a note, and let my family and friends know why I was leaving, and what I would want done with my body, funeral, and other things. (I'm 41, I haven't gotten my will and final arrangements together yet, so I'd have to do that in my exit letter.) I guess some people just get really emotional or have a huge moment of passion where they just kill themselves without thinking it through and then it just cruelly leaves their loved ones behind wondering what happened. There's no explanation or clear idea of what the circumstances were. That's a horrible thing to make your family endure on top of dealing with your death. If I may be so rude as to say this, it's just very selfish.

03-13-2009, 02:43 PM	#7
TracyLynnS Don't Look Up Forum 3000 Club Member Join Date: Jan 07, 2009 Posts: 3,107	I've heard a lot of people say that if you commit suicide with a gun, your hand will grip the gun and hold on to it in a natural nerve reaction. I find that hard to believe. I've seen people knocked unconcious (no gun involved) and they go completely limp, immediately. Seems like a gunshot to the head would have a similar effect. Danny's gun was a 9mm. I've never shot one of those. Aren't they similar to a .45 in size and action? A .45, if not held firmly will kick right back and show you who's boss. I imagine that if someone used that kind of a weapon to shoot themselves in the head, the gun would recoil violently and fly out of their hand, landing a good distance away. Not far away, but definitely not neatly in their lap or still in their hand with their hand resting in their lap. Now, maybe a little .22 semi auto would be wimpy enough to land close to the body after a suicide shot to the head, but even my .22 revolver has enough recoil to land a foot or more away if I were to relax my body (as if suiciding) after shooting it. (Revolvers tend to have a bit more recoil than semi-autos because of the way semi autos are designed.) I always thought those neat little "gun in the hand, shot to the head" suicides looked staged by a murderer. My favorite was the stupid husband who half shoved a glove on his wife's hand, shot her to death, laid the gun on the floor, turned up the heat in the room where the body was, and covered her up with lots of blankets to try to fool the medical examiner on the time of death, while he ran around doing his errands in town. Who the heck lays on the couch and halfway puts on a gardening glove before shooting themselves to death? That husband was a bumbling criminal for sure.

03-14-2009, 08:07 PM	#11
TracyLynnS Don't Look Up Forum 3000 Club Member Join Date: Jan 07, 2009 Posts: 3,107	Okay, so in theory then, with the recoil of a 9mm, the gun would have fallen close to the body, maybe similar to what would happen with a .22, but it wouldn't have fallen in his lap, and imo, definitely not held in his hand in his lap. Yep, I'm suspicious...

03-29-2009, 12:09 PM	#12
MissFit29 Member Forum Regular Join Date: Mar 09, 2009 Location: Minnesota Posts: 526	I think the suspect in this case would be his girlfriend. No one else heard him make any threats of suicide except her. Also, is there proof that he actually discharged a weapon, as she claims? I'm inclined to think that she's involved somehow. The nosy neighbor saw him get into a car with a woman. Danny was worth money from his family's clothing business. Maybe she wanted to be married into the family to have a claim to it. He doesn't want to marry her. She kills him in a fit of rage. Maybe that's stretching it, but I really don't think it's suicide. If Danny shot himself in the head, there would be a lot of visible blood in the room. Danny's dad didn't see any blood when he found Danny. The whole scene just seemed to be a setup. I don't believe it was a suicide.

03-29-2009, 12:44 PM	#13
Mastermind Member Senior Member Join Date: Jul 16, 2008 Posts: 1,843	It's been a while since watching it but the bullet wound was in the front of his head, no? Don't people commit suiced with the gun to the side of their head , or in the mouth?

03-29-2009, 05:42 PM	#15
TracyLynnS Don't Look Up Forum 3000 Club Member Join Date: Jan 07, 2009 Posts: 3,107	I watched a real detectives eppy (or similar show) the other day about Ray Beagle, the guy in FL who, back in 1993, killed two hunters for their pocket money. He suicided with a hand gun in the police station bathroom while he had been to see the cops for questioning. He had barricaded himself in the bathroom during a break in the questioning, proceeded to have a shootout with the cops, then after writing on the walls and singing out loud, he killed himself. What I thought was interesting was that in the re-enactment, the real police chief was interviewed and they showed what was said to be the real bathroom where it all happened. It was very small. Just a small private room with one toilet and a sink. It wasn't a big bathroom with seperate stalls. It was small and cramped. When they re-enacted the scene of Ray's suicide, the cop said that Ray had been crouched on the floor by the toilet after exchanging gunfire. After he shot himself, the camera showed the pistol falling into the toilet. I don't know if it really happened that way or if they were using artistic license, but I thought it was interesting that the suicide victim was in such close proximity to the toilet (crouched next to it on the floor) and immediately after the fatal shot, the gun isn't clutched in his grip, but his hand relaxes in death and he drops it.