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Old 10-08-2020, 02:41 PM   #76
Latka Gravas
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I saw the UM Alcatraz special this past summer - for the first time. This is definitely the most comprehensive special/doc. I've seen on the escape. Extremely interesting segment, especially when they had the professional athlete/swimmer start off from Alcatraz & successfully swim to shore - all while being monitored, of course. Granted, he was in great physical shape and had trained for long distance swims; the swim was during the day with great visibility; and, he had people watching the whole time to make sure he was OK.

Conversely, the three convicts who "escaped" from Alcatraz were doing so at night when visibility was much less; there were three of them on a flimsy, makeshift raft that could easily have come apart at any time due to their combined weight & the sub-par raft; none of the three were professional swimmers; and, all had been in prison for a while - so were at less than peak physical condition.

So, I'm torn as to whether or not they survived & made it to shore that night. In the special, it was mentioned that the day?! after the escape, a sailor/crew member on a ship saw what looked like the body of one of them in the water (from a distance). Also, some of their papers/documents/belongings were found in the water. However, it's unclear if the person really saw a body. And, the belongings could have fallen in the water on the way - and they could still have made it to shore.

Side-note: I also enjoyed the 200X Mythbusters special that re-created the Escape - very interesting as well.

Also worth noting is the great 1979 film Escape from Alcatraz - starring Clint Eastwood. This implied that they did survive the escape, but of course was only a fictitious movie (though partially based on fact).
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Old 10-09-2020, 02:25 AM   #77
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One thing that needs to be mentioned is that there was ONE luxury for prisoners on Alcatraz: HOT SHOWERS! Yep, they deliberately made sure the showers were nice and hot so that the prisoners wouldn't attempt to build resistance to cold via steeling themselves with cold showers on a constant basis before attempting any escape via water. So any attempt to replicate the feat would need to have the participants take nothing BUT hot showers for months before seeing if they could last in that rather chilly Bay water long enough to make it to shore!
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Old 10-09-2020, 11:21 AM   #78
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Here's the flaw in any 'they escaped' argument.

Now, I won't disagree that there are some.. Questionable things that certainly make you raise an eyebrow and consider the possibility.. Things like the Anglin's mother getting birthday(?) cards and flowers every year.. The 'sightings' of them at a funeral.. Those things.

But, here's the killer of the 'made it alive' theory for me.

They were never found. These guys were all career criminals. Not good guys at all. And we're to believe that they escaped from Alcatraz and then kept their noses clean for 20,30 or more years? All three went straight?

Yeah.. Nope. That blows it all up for me.
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Old 10-11-2020, 12:07 AM   #79
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But, here's the killer of the 'made it alive' theory for me.

They were never found. These guys were all career criminals. Not good guys at all. And we're to believe that they escaped from Alcatraz and then kept their noses clean for 20,30 or more years? All three went straight?

Yeah.. Nope. That blows it all up for me.
This is what does it for me as well. I think they planned it as best as they could, so everything about the plan points to them surviving being possible.

But they were in Alcatraz for a reason. It wasn't because of unpaid parking tickets, or a DUI. They were career criminals, and I don't believe all 3 could have lived crime free lives after that. All 3 drowned.

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Old 10-11-2020, 12:39 AM   #80
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I think that the 3 men would have eventually flaunted their notoriety and fame had they been successful. I don't buy that they quietly disappeared into a ho-hum lifestyle.

I have read several books about life on the rock and a common theme is about one group getting one up on the other group. Whether it was cons attacking mean or vile guards or the bulls working over a mouthy convict.

I think there would have been more letters and postcards flaunting their escape. Anything to prove that they indeed beat the rock.
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Old 10-12-2020, 01:29 PM   #81
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I think that the 3 men would have eventually flaunted their notoriety and fame had they been successful. I don't buy that they quietly disappeared into a ho-hum lifestyle.

I have read several books about life on the rock and a common theme is about one group getting one up on the other group. Whether it was cons attacking mean or vile guards or the bulls working over a mouthy convict.

I think there would have been more letters and postcards flaunting their escape. Anything to prove that they indeed beat the rock.



I have to disagree! these men spent 6 long months digging their way out with spoons, night after night! they went to extreme lengths of making dummy heads using toothpaste, hair from the barbers shop, they planned every single thing to last detail, 6 months digging with spoons! thats someone who shows an insane amount of patience, but not only that but discipline. people like that aren't going to let's say "show off" what they've done. and get themselves caught 2 days later.

And thats another thing, i think we'd be a little naive to assume that they didn't have some plan for when they reached the water, like i say they planned their escape to the very last detail, it was perfect, why would we assume that they'd just throw themselves to the waves? maybe they had someone waiting, but when you see the level of planning and detail they went into, that takes a real smart, dedicated, patient and disciplined person, somebody who'd have a plan to get across the bay and wouldn't be stupid enough to get himself caught later.
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Old 10-13-2020, 05:48 PM   #82
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I have to disagree! these men spent 6 long months digging their way out with spoons, night after night! they went to extreme lengths of making dummy heads using toothpaste, hair from the barbers shop, they planned every single thing to last detail, 6 months digging with spoons! thats someone who shows an insane amount of patience, but not only that but discipline. people like that aren't going to let's say "show off" what they've done. and get themselves caught 2 days later.

And thats another thing, i think we'd be a little naive to assume that they didn't have some plan for when they reached the water, like i say they planned their escape to the very last detail, it was perfect, why would we assume that they'd just throw themselves to the waves? maybe they had someone waiting, but when you see the level of planning and detail they went into, that takes a real smart, dedicated, patient and disciplined person, somebody who'd have a plan to get across the bay and wouldn't be stupid enough to get himself caught later.
If they were that smart they wouldn't have been in Alcatraz in the first place.

And let's not forget that one of the people they brought in on their plan wasn't smart enough to dig his hole big enough to fit through.

So.. Yeah.. I don't necessarily think that this was the height of engineering that they pulled off or that the plan was necessarily brilliant. Credit where it's due. They got further than all but a handful of people.
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Old 10-14-2020, 10:57 AM   #83
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I think that the 3 men would have eventually flaunted their notoriety and fame had they been successful. I don't buy that they quietly disappeared into a ho-hum lifestyle.

I have read several books about life on the rock and a common theme is about one group getting one up on the other group. Whether it was cons attacking mean or vile guards or the bulls working over a mouthy convict.

I think there would have been more letters and postcards flaunting their escape. Anything to prove that they indeed beat the rock.
They wouldn't have flaunted if they truly wanted to retain their freedom.

I believe they made it. Some criminals are really good at not being caught. The fact they could have all made it and started new lives and kept a pact of silence is not far fetched.

How many wanted UM fugitives still have not been captured? Wallace Thrasher comes to mind.
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Old 10-16-2020, 03:51 PM   #84
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They wouldn't have flaunted if they truly wanted to retain their freedom.

I believe they made it. Some criminals are really good at not being caught. The fact they could have all made it and started new lives and kept a pact of silence is not far fetched.

How many wanted UM fugitives still have not been captured? Wallace Thrasher comes to mind.
Wallace Thrasher you can't hold up as an example, because there's no proof whether he's alive or not. The generally accepted theory now is that he did, indeed, die in the plane crash.. Even though the evidence that he did has flaws.

A better example for your theory would be.. I can't remember the name but the woman who killed someone in a DUI.. Let me find that. Gloria Schulze. That's a better example. We know that she's been alive within the past 15 years at least. That whore there.. that one is a case that ticks me off beyond belief.

Eric Rudolph is a good example as well, but.. He was caught.

How about the guy who lived in his ex-wife's basement for 20+ years or something that came out recently? Found his body buried in her backyard. There's one way you can do it, and that's what I've always assumed that Schulze has been doing.

Anyway.. I'm not trying to knock your belief that they made it. More power to you, there is enough out there that even makes me, someone who doesn't believe they made it, say that there's at least a chance.

But.. Let's not give too much credit to these folks. If they were so good at not getting caught.. They wouldn't have been caught the first time(Or the second, or the third in the case of Morris). And.. You're also getting THREE people to go straight and disappear without a trace, pending on whether you believe that the Anglins were showing up at funerals and sending birthday cards to their mother.

One person has a difficult time keeping a secret along with the most chance of success. But THREE?
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Old 10-17-2020, 05:51 PM   #85
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One person has a difficult time keeping a secret along with the most chance of success. But THREE?


You talk about these guys as if they were high school girls trying to keep a secret about a prom dress! when your freedom depends on keeping your mouth shut, then you usually shut up. like i said before, these guys shown a huge amount of not only patience digging with spoons, they shown a huge amount of discipline, 6 months digging why didn't they brag about their plan around alcatraz? and in doing so get themselves caught? why only blab on the outside?


you're missing the obvious what show are we talking about? unsolved mysteries, 85% of the cases were someone has murdered someone, kidnapped someone, robbed a bank, done some fraud and then gone on the run. that was 85% of the show, if it was normal practice for wanted felons to brag about their freedom, then we wouldn't need this show. it's not common for people to do what you're saying!

I find it more believable that a shark ate them in the bay, than they would have bragged about escaping alcatraz.

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Old 10-18-2020, 01:14 AM   #86
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I agree with you, Bigted. So let's just assume that they DID in fact make it out of the bay; I have seen no evidence that they actually did keep their noses clean all those years after. If they were not in America (strong rumor has it that they were in S. America, cannot remember if it was Chile or someplace else), they could have continued participating in crime and either it wasn't reported or we haven't heard about it. Just because we haven't heard about crimes committed by these guys after the fact, doesn't mean they didn't make it. We can speculate all day long about how they should have or might have behaved in hiding; we are not them so we cannot say 100% what they would have done, one way or the other. We just don't know.
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Old 10-18-2020, 09:36 AM   #87
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You talk about these guys as if they were high school girls trying to keep a secret about a prom dress! when your freedom depends on keeping your mouth shut, then you usually shut up. like i said before, these guys shown a huge amount of not only patience digging with spoons, they shown a huge amount of discipline, 6 months digging why didn't they brag about their plan around alcatraz? and in doing so get themselves caught? why only blab on the outside?


you're missing the obvious what show are we talking about? unsolved mysteries, 85% of the cases were someone has murdered someone, kidnapped someone, robbed a bank, done some fraud and then gone on the run. that was 85% of the show, if it was normal practice for wanted felons to brag about their freedom, then we wouldn't need this show. it's not common for people to do what you're saying!

I find it more believable that a shark ate them in the bay, than they would have bragged about escaping alcatraz.
I completely agree!

These men went through a hell of a lot to get freedom so if it came to fruition I am sure they were not about to risk it all for bragging rights.

Its very likely they were able to easily start new lives. This was during a time where computers were not monitoring a persons every move. They could have created new identities with drivers licenses and passports and stayed under the radar.

I kept up with the FBI info that was released years ago. I like how the remaining survivor allegedly sent a letter to let the law know they all made it out LOL.

This entire thing would make a hell of a movie..like a good 3 hours film.
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Old 10-18-2020, 09:49 AM   #88
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they could have continued participating in crime and either it wasn't reported or we haven't heard about it. Just because we haven't heard about crimes committed by these guys after the fact, doesn't mean they didn't make it. We can speculate all day long about how they should have or might have behaved in hiding; we are not them so we cannot say 100% what they would have done, one way or the other. We just don't know.

Alcatraz must have been a hell hole, so many people say they would have gone back to crime, maybe, but even working on some farm in argentina surely would have been better than spending day after day in some tiny cell waiting to die. or doing 25 years there.

i think they way they managed to get out of alcatraz, the planning that went into it, 6 months digging with spoons, hair from the barber shop, taking the concerete dust from the holes they dug to make the masks! that shows that they were dedicated, patiente, smart and most of all disciplined.

I think that would have meant they had a plan for when they got to the water, maybe someone was waiting for them with a boat, i dunno, i'm not 100% sure they made it, but the planning that took place on the inside makes you think they had just a good plan for the outside.
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Old 10-18-2020, 10:50 PM   #89
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There was one prisoner who I believe made it to shore at the base of the Golden Gate Bridge in an escape attempt years before the Morris and Anglin escape, and he was frozen to near death. He survived only because someone found him on the rocks and he was immediately hospitalized. If they made to shore they likely would have been in a similar condition. Without immediately emergency care they wouldn’t have survived.

The professional swimmer who swam from Alvarez to the shore on the segment swam a quicker route to the shore and did so during the day. Plus Morris and the Anglins weren’t Olympic swimmers who trained for this. It was their intent to use a raft that obviously fell apart fairly quickly. They were not at all prepared to swim to shore. Even more important is there was a strong tide that would have easily overpowered them. The professional swimmer on the show had none of that to deal with.

The evidence is overwhelming that they were in a dire situation once in the water. There was never a siting of them in the public whatsoever. There is really so basis to believe they made it to shore.
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Old 10-19-2020, 10:04 AM   #90
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There was one prisoner who I believe made it to shore at the base of the Golden Gate Bridge in an escape attempt years before the Morris and Anglin escape, and he was frozen to near death. He survived only because someone found him on the rocks and he was immediately hospitalized. If they made to shore they likely would have been in a similar condition. Without immediately emergency care they wouldn’t have survived.

The professional swimmer who swam from Alvarez to the shore on the segment swam a quicker route to the shore and did so during the day. Plus Morris and the Anglins weren’t Olympic swimmers who trained for this. It was their intent to use a raft that obviously fell apart fairly quickly. They were not at all prepared to swim to shore. Even more important is there was a strong tide that would have easily overpowered them. The professional swimmer on the show had none of that to deal with.

The evidence is overwhelming that they were in a dire situation once in the water. There was never a siting of them in the public whatsoever. There is really so basis to believe they made it to shore.




There is a basis to believe that they made it, Most people believe they actually went to angel island that night, there was a window every night about 11pm which would have made their crossing easy due to the tide, FBI files show that their raft was found there and there were "footprints leading away from it" an oar was found placed against a tree.

The sanfran bridge is and was a hotspot for suicide jumpers, the whole area, the chief of police said at the time "it's never heard of that the body doesn't wash up somewhere" we're talking about 3 bodies.

A car was stolen at 6am that morning, a 56 chevy, not long after a man reported being run off the road by 3 men in the same car.


Since then the families have recieved letters, christmas and birthday cards, an FBI agent said a picture of 2 men on a farm in argentina was "more than likely them" the handwriting is theirs, they just can't verify when they were sent. the head of the rangers who took over the case in the late 60s said "they probably made it"

I think it's safe to say that on many levels the government wanted a close and shut case because an unescapble prison was escaped from, i'm not 100% sure they made it, but to say theres no basis for it? naaaa there is!
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