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Old 10-13-2005, 01:20 PM   #31
loren
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there is always the talk about generation and speed, for grades on discs

im not from the era of vhs

i havent a clue what people are talking about

and yet i seem to get the grade thing done on a pretty fair basis


i agree there should be something that is standard


but to put that in place would be near impossible


i see people have the same set as that i do, and from the exact same source, and they rate my 7.5 as a 9

there are three sellers on ioffer that i see , that have my alice creation, and rate that as a 9 of 10, i say its 6-7, and im the one who dug it up and put it in circulation

i see examples of it every day

yes i would like to see a standard, but i have little hope for it
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Old 10-13-2005, 03:14 PM   #32
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Default experience vs liars, ha ha

Well sometimes it is a question of experience

when i first started i graded too high, as i was new and not real sure about stuff

i have since adjusted my grading scales
and now i try to be cautious when rating and if someone asks i try to give as much detail info as possible

BUT there are those who have traded for years (MANY OF THEM ARE RAMPANT ON IOFFER) who rate everything an 8 of 9, and they KNOW BETTER

they are flat out liars
i have traded with some before and they are just scammers
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Last edited by Lamont; 10-13-2005 at 03:14 PM. Reason: spelling
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Old 10-13-2005, 09:00 PM   #33
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Default PS quality issues

PS i think that it should be the norm that if a newbie sends u a set that is either 1. Grossly lesser quality than they claimed, or 2. incomplete when claimed to be complete---
that you should NOT have to honor the deal, until they make it right

NOW I DO NOT MEAN when established traders have a disagreement on quality---b/cs one mans 8 is another mans 7--- I am talking about,like the example loren said, when some one sells or trades the ALICE Set which is about a 7 on my scale, a bit less on lorens, and claims it is a 9 of 10----- THEY KNOW IT IS NOT EVEN CLOSE and that is messed up

AND I DO NOT MEAN if it is a big set and an episode is missing, WE ALL MAKE MISTAKES< and NOW i try to check each set to be sure when i get it in (BUT I HAVE MISSED eps on sets in the past, and it bit me in the butt, so now i try to check them to be sure.... go to www.epguides.com, takes 5 minutes)

I have had people drag out a trade for 3 months, send me crap and get mad when i didnt think i should honor the original deal


AAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
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Old 10-13-2005, 09:46 PM   #34
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I agree 100% that is my point.
Simply SENDING isn't going tobe the issue as you said. But peopel grade thigns different.

So I am trying to think of a way to facilitate such a system...

With so many opinions its a hard one.
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Old 10-13-2005, 09:50 PM   #35
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Default KNOW WHO U R DEALING WITH

I really do not think that any set of rules or standard will really help
b/c scammers always seem to find new tricks

#1 rule is KNOW WHO U R DEALING WITH

check em out, ask for LEGIT references

make them send first and tell them up front that if they send crap, u will not trade for it
or if at all possible, trade with people u know

and then u are at least 75% safe

ha ha
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Old 10-13-2005, 11:07 PM   #36
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Default Idea

Okay...what about this.


What if I put together a list of 20 pictures. in my opinion of perfect to degrading quality.
And send it to those interested in judging a poll?

Lets say the first 100 being the top traders, the vetran traders and down the line.
IN other words, epople you guys all trust. (hopefully I am on that list)
Agent13, Loren Weeks, TDubell to name a few.



I put these pictures up- and you can all GRADE the pictures. And let the majority rule.

Will it be a perfect system? No.
But it would give at least a majority perspective guideline- and this can be realyl really helpful with new traders.

Since we have dvd to dvd, digital tv to dvd, vhs to dvd, vhs to vhs- ther are all sorts of grades out there.

I am not saying you shoudn't trust your judgement first, or even take a new traders face value.
BUT if you entered a trade with a vetran trader or one whom you did trust- this guide MIGHT be an idea of what you will be getting.

I am willing to put the work and effort, or have ehlp with this project.

I would post lets say around 20 images, and you can grade them, one by one. Ten being hte highest, 0ne being why bother.

And take lets say ten-5 as a trading guideline-
Save it as a sticky on a "quality guidelines post"
and in the future at least have a refrence point.

As I said this would be compiled of the highest traders, longest running, vetran traders- and so on- those whom have time and experience, but most of all trust on their opinion and the passing along of their quality.

Any ideas/ Complaints? Bad idea, feedback?


~Savage
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Old 10-14-2005, 03:25 AM   #37
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my usual twisted view

i can play discs on my computer, and they can look far different than if they were played on a normal tv set

the computer has an xtra bright 19 inch sony lcd monitor, even trashy items are much better than on a regular tv

so my point is, take a small screen shot, view it on the nice high quality monitor, and this can be quite a difference from viewing on an average tv hookup, that the avearge person is going to be viewing them on

in my opinion, a single frame, dosnt do much for me

i get a lot better idea from dropping a disc on to my 60 inch philips monitor, if it holds up to that experiment, then i can get a very good idea of the content

i think thats why i grade tougher than most, im positive that if i only looked at things on my sony computer monitor, i would grade them at least one full level higher
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Old 10-14-2005, 03:48 AM   #38
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I think this is a great idea savage. As far as grading the quality of the
episodes themselves It might give some clarification of what is the difference
between a 6 out of 10 and a 9 out of 10.

Grading for some people is different than other people. Right now for the most part I do quick and dirty menu systems. Opening screen, points to the episodes, put two to four episodes on disc (depending on size) and then
wallah, You have a set.

Some would say that the menus also have an an effect on the quality of
a product. to use an example. The Joker Batman set had awesome
graphics, menu system etc. I've seen others that were excellent. But
I don't think that they should be a huge factor in the judging of a quality
set. They might raise the quality up a half point or point. But overall
I'd rather have a premium copy of the movie itself with quick and dirty
menu system than a fantasic menu system and bad quality video etc.

The other thing that I would wonder would apply is the actual dated
of the material. There are some materials that are ultra rare. Aren't
seen very often and when they are, they end up being of so so quality.
(One of my sets I'm working on is a set of the show monsters. I got it
in a good trade. But some of the episodes are vhs captures that are
not very good. It's still overall a great set. But those episodes drop
it a few pieces.)

Overall I think that if we sit down and set a measure of an idea of what
is going to be a quality set and what is going to be an average set and get
lots of feedback. It might make things a lot easier on new traders to know
what they are getting.
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Old 10-14-2005, 06:13 AM   #39
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Default maybe....

Im with loren on this one, it is tough to grade an image on the computer b/c the resolution on most monitors is not set up like a tv and therefore the image is not the same

also brightness and colors are often not the same

and often a screen shot is harder to judge by than the whole disc

hmmmmmmmmm
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Old 10-14-2005, 08:04 AM   #40
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Image isn't the only indicator of quality, IMHO. I've gotten into arguments on another board because I feel that if the source for the set is cut episodes, the quality rating should be downgraded. I was told, "Well, if we did that, then no one would be able to say they had 10 out of 10." Which would be my point, actually - if the source episodes are cut, then the set isn't a 10 out of 10. It's not perfect.

I don't care about menus, except that they be easy to use. I care about image quality, sound quality, completeness of the material. I know people who collect material because of guest stars, and if the material is cut and that low level guest star's scene is among the cut, the show is of no value to them. So edits can matter. I've seen 30 second cuts that completely changed the tone of the episode, so I don't buy "stations know what they're doing when they do their edits." I get an OCD twinge over missing end credits, but I live with that because sometimes I can't help it thanks to my local affiliates. But I want to know if material from the show is missing, and a rating claiming a 10 out of 10 for episodes captured off TVLand last week doesn't leave room for that.

I agree that the old VHS collectors' codes could be cumbersome, but they tended to touch on multiple points of quality guaging - generation, source, commercials intact or no, quality of image, quality of sound, even quality of transmission (i.e., weather alerts, etc.). Even so, in 27 years of trading, I've never found a grading scale that could be applied universally. I find a single number or letter to be too opaque a grade for it to be really meaningful for me as a trader, and I have no interest in using them. I've yet to create a set or see a set that I agreed was 10 out of 10 (or A+ or 5 out of 5 if that's your scale). It's not that I consider myself a hard grader, I just haven't seen all the elements present that would convince me that a set is perfect throughout in every way.

I think the group's suggestions to come up with a universal grading scale is good in that it will give the participants a common language as it were, but the fact is everyone participating in this conversation already act honorably in their trades. You still have the problem of the people who don't grade accurately or fairly.
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Old 10-14-2005, 08:22 AM   #41
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Default EXACTLY!!!!

That is the biggest point---
I mean if i get a set that JOKER authored himself, i know it is going to be GREAT!!!

Or if i get a set from LOREN listed as an 8
I KNOW IT IS GOING TO BE AN 8

most of the traders who have been here for a long time, know what they are talking about

THE PROBLEM IS GETTING the newbies and the scammers to hop on board, and I really, really doubt that will happen

The bottom line is, EVERY time u trade with someone that you do not know, you always take a gamble----

The Smart thing to do, is to gamble small and dont take much of a chance
until you know them
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Old 10-14-2005, 08:58 AM   #42
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Default Newbies send first and brief thoughts

I shouldn't be one of the judges because I'm a lousy critic on quality... honestly.

A critic on honesty is more up my alley. LOL

The topic I brought up was more of an honesty issue than a quality issue. Like when someone sends stuff that they haven't checked to see if the set is complete and/or...

Or... set up a quality standard (Jason Cole's for example), as everyone seems to want to do, and hold people to it. I have been thinking that that is NOT what I meant, but maybe that will be the best option, especially for newbies. Like, warning newbies of the consequences of not checking out the quality guide before sending, etc. Do I make sense?

Also, after seeing so much garbage in trading circles lately, I'm seriously thinking that "newbie send first" ought to be a standard, too. That's the way I was treated when I started, and it didn't hurt me. At all costs, get the newbies to trade at first with those with a good reputation, and things will snowball for them... if they're legitimate traders and not rip-off artists with a new ID.
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Old 10-14-2005, 09:33 AM   #43
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Quote:
I find a single number or letter to be too opaque a grade for it to be really meaningful for me as a trader, and I have no interest in using them.
I echo that sentiment. The problem with a numerical-based grading system is that it leaves too many variables unaccounted for. If I see on a list that a show is graded 7/10, that means nothing to me, even if it's an accurate grade. I want to know WHY is it a 7/10? Is it because the source material was an EP copy of an EP speed master VHS tape? Or is it a direct off-broadcast recording to disc but the broadcast signal was poor? Or is it from a high quality source but recorded to disc at EP mode? Or is it from a 16mm film print that has degraded over time? Any of those things, and others not mentioned, could result in a show being graded 7/10, but the differences between them are huge.

I may be very interested in a 7/10 show if itís from a 16mm print that has lots of red-tone in it, but would have no interest in it if itís because the disc was made in EP mode. So the numbers themselves mean nothing, itís the reason(s) for the numbers that matter.

The bottom line is that number-based grading systems do not give any pertinent, factual, information that a person can use to make a decision, they are simply someone elseís opinion. Itís hard to imagine a worse grading system than one based on opinion, since opinions not only differ by nature, but also by motive (i.e. dealers tend to grade more leniently than traders).

Facts are the only thing that matter and that is how I grade, e.g. ďuncut, from off-digital satellite HG-VHS SP to DVD SPĒ. More long-winded, yes, but also precise and accurate: everybody knows, or has a good idea, what such a disc will look like. And if you get such a disc and it looks awful, you can take solace in knowing that you were flat-out lied to by an unscrupulous person instead of being frustrated over yet another ďdifference of opinionĒ. Obviously, no system or standard will help if a person is just going to lie.

So far as screen captures go, the limitation to them is that they donít display motion and that is where a lot of the quality problems come in. I saw an ad, with screen shots that looked great, for that 77 disc Hawaii Five-0 set thatís floating around. When I got the first disc, I was appalled at how bad it looked whenever there was fast movement Ė huge pixelation blocks all over the place. In short, the pictures were not accurate reflections of the quality of the video when you sat down and watched it. They can have value if the issue is one of generational quality, but otherwise, they do not tell the story.
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Old 10-14-2005, 07:15 PM   #44
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Default what to do when?

When u have someone say they will send first, and then like 3 months later, u get nothing, and no replies to emails, so then u make a deal to get it someplace else.......

and then lo and behold, the other person FINALLY sends it, but u dont need it now?

i had that happen 2 times with 2 sets, the person said theyd send out in a week, ok well a month later, i figure they are behind, b/c it is easy to get behind... so i email, and they say this week for sure,

weeks later, no reply, no dvds

so i just forget it and move on and get it elsewhere

then 2 months later i get a set i dont need or want anymore, and then
IM the total jerk b/c i wont trade for a set that is 3 months late and no emails in ages??????

WHAT DO U DO????
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Old 10-14-2005, 09:11 PM   #45
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This is my point! You don't owe them if it's been that long AND they didn't communicate.
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