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Old 05-29-2012, 03:15 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkDante
I always thought there was a great deal of validity to occult activity in both the "Son Of Sam" and Kurt McFall cases. Now whether or not the SOS murders were organized as an act of Satanism, I doubt we'll ever know that but I'm positive that David Berkowitz and his associates dabbled in Satanism.

As for McFall, while I'm not convinced that the Pagan group profiled on UM were responsible for Kurt's demise, I do believe that Kurt through his curiosity may have gotten involved with certain people who were later responsible for his death.
I never had a definitive opinion on Son of Sam.

On one hand, it's easy to watch the UM segment and come away believing in a conspiracy once the inconsistencies of the lone gunman theory are exposed. Most of these inconsistencies revolve around the Moskowitz shooting - the last known Son of Sam attack. Though it's probably worth noting that inconsistencies exist in some of the other shootings as well, especially one instance where the assailant was described as a female. Also noteworthy are Berkowitz's own claims of conspiracy and the involvement of a cult - a group he described as an extremist sect of the Process Church of Final Judgment. Interestingly enough, Berkowitz does not proclaim innocence, and has admitted that he was the triggerman in two of the attacks.

All that being said, some criminologists who have interviewed Berkowitz have have advanced the opinion that it is unlikely that someone with the introverted and antisocial tendencies he possessed would be involved with others in orchestrating the murders. They also feel that he may have fabricated the cult details so he could deny being directly involved in some of the shootings. I also find the actions of the police somewhat troubling, assuming a conspiracy existed. Was it ever suspected that they were looking for more than one shooter? If so, why did this line of investigation cease once Berkowitz was apprehended? I suppose one could argue the authorities and public wanted to believe the reign of terror was over. However, of all the people who who were involved in the investigation in an official capacity, not one person has stepped forward and claimed they suspected Berkowitz didn't act alone? For what it's worth, the case is still officially "open", but I don't think anything is being done currently.

Kurt McFall's death, I believe, was an accident. Of the two groups we know he was involved with, neither worshiped the devil and both seemed pretty benign. In fact, both organizations still exist today and there is a plethora of information available about them online. As to the possibility of Kurt being involved with a third group, while not impossible, I have never seen any evidence to support that contention.
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Old 05-29-2012, 04:35 PM   #17
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Kurt McFall's death, I believe, was an accident. Of the two groups we know he was involved with, neither worshiped the devil and both seemed pretty benign. In fact, both organizations still exist today and there is a plethora of information available about them online. As to the possibility of Kurt being involved with a third group, while not impossible, I have never seen any evidence to support that contention.
My feeling is that Kurt didn't necessarily have had to join another group to get involved with people that may have facilitated his death on that evening. I personally believe that Carrillo had no idea what happened to Kurt except making the natural assumption that he may have fallen off the cliff.

However that isn't to say that Kurt didn't interact with people from Carrillo's group who may have been involved in things beyond Pagan religion. Again there is no way of proving this but the two things that always stick out at me about Kurt when I'm watching the segment are the words: curious and obsessive. Taken together those attitudes can be a lethal cocktail which can lead someone especially of Kurt's age down a path of no return. His insatiable curiosity about things that most people just plain avoid combined with his obsessive nature of getting deeper and deeper into these things may have been a really bad mix.

While I believe it's possibly Kurt's death may have been an accident I can't rule out the possibility that curiosity may have killed the cat in this case with apologies for the crudeness of that statement.
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Old 06-12-2012, 01:49 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by DarkDante
I wanted to bump this because I just watched the original broadcast of this from 1988 and one of the police officers interviewed (the heavy set officer with the mustache) mentioned that he personally didn't believe that Charlie Sigmin was murdered.

He mentioned there was evidence that he saw at the scene of the crime that indicated that Goff and Anne Sigmin killed Charlie Sigmin in self defense. He mentioned there was significant damage done to the house indicating a struggle, the angle of the bullet wounds to Charlie's body as well as evidence that Goff had bruises all over his body. He said the biggest mistake Goff and Anne Sigmin made was leaving town because it made them look guilty. He did however also made a statement that showed some degree of bias in that he mentioned that in his opinion Goff was "not capable of first degree murder" which leads me to wonder if this officer was a friend of Goff's from his days as a police officer?

Stack also mentioned that a warrant has never been formally issued for Anne Sigmin and Gary Goff's arrest and mentioned that both might be compleately unaware that they are wanted. He also reached out to both of them personally in case they were watching UM encouraging them to turn themselves in.

Given the eventual update to the case aired on "Lifetime" a lot of this information is irrelevant but I found it interesting that the guilt Anne Sigmin and Gary Goff wasn't as nearly as cut and dry at the time as the rebroadcasts of the segment make us think it was.

They said in the segment that Anne incriminated herself (without giving details) and she asked her friend to wait a while before going to police because she needed time to leave town. That sounds like someone who is guilty to me.
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Old 11-21-2013, 04:22 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tresa
She was not represented properly in the unsolved mystery episode. She did not worship the devil and they left out the fact that Charlie beat the hell out of her often. That's what he was attempting to do the day Garey shot him.

We have only heard from aunt Ann once since she left and it was within a short time after leaving. Garey did all the calling after that and her voice was never heard. We feel he killed her so she couldn't testify against him. We have also been told that was the second man he has killed and he used to be some type of lawman himself.

They need to start checking for a match with all of these Jane Does.
Hmmm...interesting post here...
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Old 11-21-2013, 05:17 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tresa
She was not represented properly in the unsolved mystery episode. She did not worship the devil and they left out the fact that Charlie beat the hell out of her often. That's what he was attempting to do the day Garey shot him.
If you had read the article for this case on UM's website, you would know that's not true. Her alleged satan worshipping/withcraft was not even the focal point of the investigation, it was merely the reason why Charlie asked Ann to move out.

And where exactly is the link which says Charlie beat her often? I can't imagine a detail like that would be excluded, unless it was untrue or could not be verified. I understand shows like UM are in the business of getting more viewers in order to get leads on cases, but I'd like to think they wouldn't throw in misleading information just because they felt like it, or exclude anything which is important.

Except from UM's website for this case:

Unfortunately, no blood sample was taken from Charlie's body to find out if he had been drinking. But even if Ann's story was true, there still might be grounds for a charge of premeditated murder if Ann and Garey had both fired at Charlie. Police conducted a powder residue test to see if Ann had also fired a gun, but it was inconclusive. Ann Sigmin and Garey Goff were then released. The investigation, however, continued. Apparently, Ann had told a friend that she had reasons for wanting Charlie dead. Chief Deputy Jack Davis of the Pemiscot County Sheriff's department convinced the friend to wear a wire, hoping that Ann would say something that would be an admission of guilt:

"We had to do something different than what we were doing. She had, in talking with Miss Sigmin, told her she was fixing to go to the police. Miss Sigmin ultimately told her not to go to the police... and give her... and Mr. Goff time to leave town. She incriminated herself on the tape."
-----------

I find it hard to believe that someone acting in self-defence would kill a person, then go on the run. If you want to say she probably panicked, fine. But consider this, if it were premeditated then it would take a calm and collective mind to carry out such a crime. Ann called Garey and asked him to come over, and voila, he ends up dead. No coincidence there.
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Old 05-31-2014, 07:38 AM   #21
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Someone claiming to be Goff posted in the topix thread last year:

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Ann is doing fine living near here. just leave her alone. she cut herself a very good deal. no one has ever spent much time looking for her. I spent 15 years in 12 in prison I paid for Charles. As I held Charlie head in my hand the last words he spoke was GAREY Im not mad at you. If there had been a trial it would have been a 3 ring circus. If Ann had came back we both would have walk. If Ann came back now Premscott would be Americans newest comic strip. I've made three tapes in the last year the show coming on A&E . Ann never loved anyone all the time. She did the best she could do. Be careful what u wish for u might get it.
Who knows it it's even Goff posting, but the poster did properly spell Goff's first name. Premscott may mean Pemiscot County, MO, where Caruthersville is located and where he apparently lived after his release from prison. A post on another topix thread mentions where's he lived since being released from prison. A Gary Goff had his house burglarized in 2011: http://www.dddnews.com/story/1797544.html

I'm doubtful that Goff doesn't have more knowledge about her disappearance than he's claimed, but with the passing of years it wouldn't be too difficult for Sigmin to keep a low profile, especially since her composite sketch was one of the worst ones featured on UM.
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Old 07-30-2014, 11:30 AM   #22
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So I watched this segment again recently and got to thinking about the likelihood that this was, in fact, a self-defense shooting given some of the information presented in the segment. Bear in mind, I'm not saying this is necessarily what I think happened, but I wanted to share my thoughts with some of y'all here.

Aspects I think could be supportive of a self-defense theory:

1. Charlie Sigmin was depressed and distraught over the separation, maintained relatively regular contact with Ann, and had a clear motive to attack Ann and/or Garey Goff given both Ann's moving in with Goff as well as the alleged phone calls he had been receiving from Goff. Additionally, I'm not sure how accurate the reenactment is, but there were scenes of Charlie drinking in a bar shortly after Ann moved out of the house. If he began to drink afterwards, that may have been an exacerbating factor.

2. LE universally (as far as we know) described the scene as appearing as though there had been a huge struggle, and both Goff and Sigmin told police that this was exactly what happened. On the surface that appears to be consistent.

3. Sigmin and Goff also both admitted to handling the two weapons at the scene. As the first weapon was a revolver, it is possible that Goff fired until all the loaded rounds were expended. As none of these shots were fatal, he then took the pistol from Ann (who may have retrieved it knowing that Goff had six or less rounds in the revolver available) and was able to fire the fatal shot from that weapon.

Goff would have had one free arm to aim and fire that weapon as the other was broken at the time. Perhaps this is why there was such a wide dispersion of wounds on Charlie Sigmin. Goff would not have been able to steady and aim the firearm appropriately, especially if he had to use his non-firing hand.

Additionally, Ann also submitted to a gun shot residue test--which she didn't have to do at that point in the investigation.

4. According to the testimony given by Charlie's friend, Charlie was sober when he left the house to go to Ann's. This doesn't necessarily mean that he was. He may not have been "falling down drunk" as it were, but he may have been technically under the influence of alcohol when he showed up at Goff's house. Again, I'm not at all saying this is the case, but it is a possibility.

5. Ann seemed to "incriminate herself on the tape" by telling her wired friend that she wanted time to get out of time before her friend went to the police. I'm not sure if that's entirely an indication of guilt, per se. If either Goff or Sigmin had a prior record, perhaps one or both of them felt as though they would definitely be collared for murder with little chance of recourse.



Although Ann's "satanist" behavior was disturbing and strange, I tend to think that particular aspect of the case may have been overemphasized regarding her potential for committing the crime. I don't think one can necessarily disregard it altogether, but given some of the pieces of information listed above, I don't know if I can throw all my chips in on the premeditated murder theory right now. Even the investigating officer felt the two were telling the truth about what happened that night when he brought the case to the prosecutor.

Again, I'm not trying to be an Ann Sigmin apologist, but I'm not currently getting a definite warm fuzzy on the murder theory.

Thoughts?
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Old 07-30-2014, 01:11 PM   #23
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Looking back through this thread, I found this interesting post from three years ago by "Tresa", one of those one-hit wonder posters who never showed up in the forum again...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tresa
She was not represented properly in the unsolved mystery episode. She did not worship the devil and they left out the fact that Charlie beat the hell out of her often. That's what he was attempting to do the day Garey shot him.

We have only heard from aunt Ann once since she left and it was within a short time after leaving. Garey did all the calling after that and her voice was never heard. We feel he killed her so she couldn't testify against him. We have also been told that was the second man he has killed and he used to be some type of lawman himself.

They need to start checking for a match with all of these Jane Does.
Of course, you have to take this information with a grain of salt, yet the segment did mention that Charlie was drinking too much at the time of the separation. I don't know, every time I watch it, I always get a weird vibe that UM downplayed this a little bit and that there might have been a darker, more violent side to Charlie when he was drunk. Sure, they tried to portray him as a nice man, but it wasn't unheard-of for UM to sometimes leave out less-than-flattering information about a murder victim (e.g. Angelo Desidari being a drug dealer) so that they didn't seem too unsympathetic. Let's put it this way, all these allegations about Charlie beating Ann may be B.S., but I wouldn't be overly shocked if they were true.

However, I wouldn't discount the notion of Charlie being abusive AND his death still being premeditated murder. Ann could have lured Charlie to her house to kill him under the assumption that people would believe the self-defense story if Charlie had a known history of being violent. Like you said, the investigating officer seemed to believe their claims of self-defense at first.

I still lean towards murder because Ann did eventually go on the run, but have always had the suspicion this case wasn't as black-and-white as it appeared.
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Old 07-30-2014, 03:42 PM   #24
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Of course, you have to take this information with a grain of salt, yet the segment did mention that Charlie was drinking too much at the time of the separation. I don't know, every time I watch it, I always get a weird vibe that UM downplayed this a little bit and that there might have been a darker, more violent side to Charlie when he was drunk. Sure, they tried to portray him as a nice man, but it wasn't unheard-of for UM to sometimes leave out less-than-flattering information about a murder victim (e.g. Angelo Desidari being a drug dealer) so that they didn't seem too unsympathetic. Let's put it this way, all these allegations about Charlie beating Ann may be B.S., but I wouldn't be overly shocked if they were true.
Yeah, those are close to my sentiments as well. I'm sure he probably was an extremely nice man most of the time. But many people who are wonderful otherwise often become very different people when they drink, or are experiencing great stress in their lives.

Perhaps the truth about the allegations lies somewhere in between: maybe Charlie was loud, domineering, and say, grabbed Ann's arm once when they were fighting, but never actually struck her. (Not that this is any better than striking a person, but there is something of a marked difference). It's difficult to say just given what we know.

Quote:
However, I wouldn't discount the notion of Charlie being abusive AND his death still being premeditated murder. Ann could have lured Charlie to her house to kill him under the assumption that people would believe the self-defense story if Charlie had a known history of being violent. Like you said, the investigating officer seemed to believe their claims of self-defense at first.
That's a fair point and I think maybe it could go back to the whole "the truth is somewhere in between" principle. Also, as much as it was reiterated that Charlie had a strong relationship with Ann's sons and was deeply concerned for their welfare at that point, perhaps this could have been the trigger for an otherwise placid man to absolutely freak out on the two people he felt was endangering the boys. Maybe Ann and Garey could have even incorporated this into their planning knowing it would evoke a very strong response from Charlie, thereby increasing the likelihood that a scene would be left behind supporting Goff and Ann's version of events.

Quote:
I still lean towards murder because Ann did eventually go on the run, but have always had the suspicion this case wasn't as black-and-white as it appeared.
Yeah, I tend to agree. I have always been a little curious about Charlie's previous two marriages and why they dissolved. Could be ultimately meaningless, but that's impossible to ascertain from the segment alone.
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Old 07-30-2014, 11:12 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by MegtheEgg86
That's a fair point and I think maybe it could go back to the whole "the truth is somewhere in between" principle. Also, as much as it was reiterated that Charlie had a strong relationship with Ann's sons and was deeply concerned for their welfare at that point, perhaps this could have been the trigger for an otherwise placid man to absolutely freak out on the two people he felt was endangering the boys. Maybe Ann and Garey could have even incorporated this into their planning knowing it would evoke a very strong response from Charlie, thereby increasing the likelihood that a scene would be left behind supporting Goff and Ann's version of events.
Yeah, I sometimes forget that Charlie wasn't actually the father of those two boys, but seemed to love them as if they were his very own. The segment says Charlie was the one who put an end to the relationship and it was mostly due to his uneasiness with Ann's Satanism and witchcraft. However, there really wasn't anything else to indicate that Ann was an unfit mother until she called Charlie on the night of the murder threatening suicide, which does lend credence to your theory that she was pushing his buttons to lure him to their house in an angry rage. Even if the whole shooting was self-defense, it's hard to feel much sympathy for Ann since she decided to skip town and abandon her two boys. Hopefully, they turned out okay after having their mother run off and a loving stepfather get killed.

On a personal note, I'm pretty sure this is the very first UM segment I ever saw as I remember tuning into this episode when it originally aired in 1988. As silly as the Satanism stuff seems now, that scene was pretty damn creepy at the time.
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Old 07-31-2014, 09:39 AM   #26
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Even if the whole shooting was self-defense, it's hard to feel much sympathy for Ann since she decided to skip town and abandon her two boys. Hopefully, they turned out okay after having their mother run off and a loving stepfather get killed.
Agreed in full. I hope they had someplace to go--UM never really told us much about the boys, really.

Quote:
On a personal note, I'm pretty sure this is the very first UM segment I ever saw as I remember tuning into this episode when it originally aired in 1988. As silly as the Satanism stuff seems now, that scene was pretty damn creepy at the time.
That scene looks like something that would have given me nightmares as a child. Probably for the best that I never caught that one!
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Old 08-19-2014, 11:01 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RobinW
Looking back through this thread, I found this interesting post from three years ago by "Tresa", one of those one-hit wonder posters who never showed up in the forum again...



Of course, you have to take this information with a grain of salt, yet the segment did mention that Charlie was drinking too much at the time of the separation. I don't know, every time I watch it, I always get a weird vibe that UM downplayed this a little bit and that there might have been a darker, more violent side to Charlie when he was drunk. Sure, they tried to portray him as a nice man, but it wasn't unheard-of for UM to sometimes leave out less-than-flattering information about a murder victim (e.g. Angelo Desidari being a drug dealer) so that they didn't seem too unsympathetic. Let's put it this way, all these allegations about Charlie beating Ann may be B.S., but I wouldn't be overly shocked if they were true.

However, I wouldn't discount the notion of Charlie being abusive AND his death still being premeditated murder. Ann could have lured Charlie to her house to kill him under the assumption that people would believe the self-defense story if Charlie had a known history of being violent. Like you said, the investigating officer seemed to believe their claims of self-defense at first.

I still lean towards murder because Ann did eventually go on the run, but have always had the suspicion this case wasn't as black-and-white as it appeared.
Whoever posted that might have been a family member of Ann's.

However, even if that's the case, if even her husband Charles didn't knew she was doing devil worship, how likely is it that her other family will know about it?

Also, I find it rather implausible Goff murdered Ann; for him to have killed her fearing that she would expose him to the authorities, and yet surrender voluntarily to the police after that, just doesn't seem to make a lot of sense.

Last but not least, if she aint guilty, like so many pple have said, she wouldn't have begged the friend not to report her and give her time to skip town.

And skipping town for so long, abandoning 2 sons for good, is something an innocent party would ever do.
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Old 05-08-2015, 02:44 PM   #28
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I apologize for bumping this old thread but curiosity got the better of me. Did Garey Goff serve any prison time for killing Charlie?
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Old 05-08-2015, 03:09 PM   #29
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I apologize for bumping this old thread but curiosity got the better of me. Did Garey Goff serve any prison time for killing Charlie?
I read that he served 13 years of his 20 year sentence.
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Old 05-08-2015, 03:10 PM   #30
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I apologize for bumping this old thread but curiosity got the better of me. Did Garey Goff serve any prison time for killing Charlie?
Yes, he plead guilty to second-degree murder, was sentenced to 20 years and was released after serving 13. I guess he figured he would get a lighter sentence if he turned himself in willingly and it worked out in the long run for him since he's a free man now. I'm sure Ann Sigmin's sentence would probably get a much larger sentence if she is ever apprehended.
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