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View Poll Results: Was Dale Kerstetter abducted or a co-conspirator?
Abducted 158 77.83%
In on it 45 22.17%
Voters: 203. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 02-17-2010, 10:08 PM   #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sharonite
http://www.epa.gov/reg3wcmd/ca/pa/pdf/pad046762258.pdf

This file offers some information about the plant where the incident took place. Just after the robbery/disappearance in 1987, Kerstetter's employer (Corning) sold the plant to another company, which folded its operations on the site in 2002.

Here's an aerial view of the plant:

http://www.bing.com/maps/#JnE9eXAuNT...Y1NjE5MTQwNg==

I feel with 99% certainty that Mr. Kerstetter was NOT involved in the robbery in any way. To me, the evidence clearly indicates that he was merely in the wrong place at the wrong time and was likely killed and his body disposed of immediately thereafter. If anything, his glance at the security camera was a silent plea for help.

There are other things that strike me as fishy. The fact that the plant was sold shortly after the robbery (likely, the sale process had already begun, as sales as big as this one tend to take several months to close), combined with the fact that the stolen platinum apparently never surfaced, makes me wonder if someone further up at Corning plotted the robbery for insurance purposes--perhaps an attempt to squeeze a little more cash out of a plant that was soon to be disposed of. If Dale's daughter is correct (and I have no reason to doubt her), the lapse in Dale's check-ins being igorned for several hours also seems to indicate that someone further up the food chain knew something was going on.

Overall, this was a great segment, though tragic. I ache for Dale's family and the closure that they have been denied for so many years.
THANK YOU!! for your insight!! I often thought I was the only one that analyzed the situation in this manner.
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Old 02-17-2010, 10:13 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by Mastermind
I should point out that this case is far easier to solve if you follow it from the angle that Dale Kerstetter is alive and was implicit in the robbery.

I do wonder if the family is choosing the most difficult investigative path simply because it puts their father in the best light. I'm not trying to be cruel or cold here but I think at some point the emotion needs to be separated from the investigative logic here.
The years have made us all accept his likely demise; at this point, it really wouldn't matter if there was evidence to suggest he was 100% involved or not, we just want to know what happened. He was the kind of person most people wish for in their lives, his guilt or innocent is irrelevant now, a simple closure to a complicated scenario would suit us all just fine.
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Old 02-17-2010, 11:09 PM   #93
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I am reminded of another case. It was not on UM but has been profiled before on other shows. The case is the murder of Gladys Ricart. She was the bride shot dead on her wedding day in 1999 by her ex boyfriend. Why is this similar? Well the night before Gladys' wedding she was seen with her ex-boyfriend walking into a department store. On the surface it looks innocent. They seem to be hugging. But if you look at it from a different angle she looks to be held against her will by a crazy ex-bf possibly telling her if she gets married he'll whack her. On closer inspection Gladys looked uncomfortable so it likely is the latter.

Enter Dale Kerstetter. It looks like he is complying on the security camera. He looks to be co-operative. But you can't hear any noise/conversation and we don't know if the burglar had a gun or if there was someone else in the background. Dale then looks into the camera, a camera that he knows the EXACT location. To me that was a sign right there of innocence. Look closer on the re-enactment. To me if that re-enactment is accurate he looks very uncomfortable.

Secondly, if you were going to assist a robbery why set up shop where the cameras can see you? He's a security guard, if he is planning this heist I have a hard time thinking he isn't smart enough to check the locations. Plus he was 5'4" 130lbs or so right? Not a big man, and by looking at the pictures it wouldn't be hard to overpower a 50 year old with that frame. That would eliminate any type of struggle.

Lastly there was no resentment on his part. All we know is that he was divorced 10 years earlier and got a paycut at his job. Is that enough to ruin your legac with all your children and grandchildren? All for $250,000 that will be divided up who knows how many ways? I doubt it. Dale would be 73 years old today. He was a smoker. Something tells me he wasn't in tiptop shape in 1987 and if he were in on the whole thing he wouldn't be doing to well today.

Innocent in my book. And sadly I think he is dead
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Old 02-17-2010, 11:09 PM   #94
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I am reminded of another case. It was not on UM but has been profiled before on other shows. The case is the murder of Gladys Ricart. She was the bride shot dead on her wedding day in 1999 by her ex boyfriend. Why is this similar? Well the night before Gladys' wedding she was seen with her ex-boyfriend walking into a department store. On the surface it looks innocent. They seem to be hugging. But if you look at it from a different angle she looks to be held against her will by a crazy ex-bf possibly telling her if she gets married he'll whack her. On closer inspection Gladys looked uncomfortable so it likely is the latter.

Enter Dale Kerstetter. It looks like he is complying on the security camera. He looks to be co-operative. But you can't hear any noise/conversation and we don't know if the burglar had a gun or if there was someone else in the background. Dale then looks into the camera, a camera that he knows the EXACT location. To me that was a sign right there of innocence. Look closer on the re-enactment. To me if that re-enactment is accurate he looks very uncomfortable.

Secondly, if you were going to assist a robbery why set up shop where the cameras can see you? He's a security guard, if he is planning this heist I have a hard time thinking he isn't smart enough to check the locations. Plus he was 5'4" 130lbs or so right? Not a big man, and by looking at the pictures it wouldn't be hard to overpower a 50 year old with that frame. That would eliminate any type of struggle.

Lastly there was no resentment on his part. All we know is that he was divorced 10 years earlier and got a paycut at his job. Is that enough to ruin your legac with all your children and grandchildren? All for $250,000 that will be divided up who knows how many ways? I doubt it. Dale would be 73 years old today. He was a smoker. Something tells me he wasn't in tiptop shape in 1987 and if he were in on the whole thing he wouldn't be doing to well today.

Innocent in my book. And sadly I think he is dead shortly after the heist
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Old 04-24-2010, 04:35 PM   #95
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from mphs95
the statue of limitations ended over 15 years ago. He could have come back to his family free and clear, but hasn't, so I think he's dead.
1. Your assuming Dale cares to come back to his family. He may be enjoying his new life too much. Perhaps he has a new family.

2. While the statute of limitations are up...there could be other crimes that Dale has that do not have limitations. During his time on the lam, Dale may have had to do other crimes. He may even have had to kill someone.

3. Course Dale may have died while on the lam.

4. If Dale was a "patsy", the other members of the criminal conspiracy may still have something to lose. They may not like it if Dale comes back home to live back after committing a robbery.

5. Dale going back home would be like OJ Simpson showing up at the Goldman's home. Some people may not take well to Dale getting away with grand larceny. There is danger and a degree of shame that could beset the family. I don;t really think it is that easy as people say.

6. There may be an IRS tax issue here. I'm by no means a CPA..but the money and assets garnered from the robbery couldn;t have been taxed. When Dale comes out of hiding..all those assets will probably come out of hiding. I'm sure the IRS is going to have an issue here.

7. As crazy and ironic as it sounds...Dale may actually already be in jail! If Dale was under a different name and was arrested for some felony...he could be an innmate somewhere and we just don;t know it. Especially if Dale went to another country. He could be rotting in a Mexican under the name "Juan Moreno" as we speak.

In short, I think people are overestimating how easy it would be for Dale to come back after the statute of limitations. There are a still a ton of obstacles that Dale has to deal with that may be too great for Dale to risk coming back.
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Old 04-24-2010, 04:51 PM   #96
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Lastly there was no resentment on his part. All we know is that he was divorced 10 years earlier and got a paycut at his job. Is that enough to ruin your legac with all your children and grandchildren? All for $250,000 that will be divided up who knows how many ways? I doubt it. Dale would be 73 years old today. He was a smoker. Something tells me he wasn't in tiptop shape in 1987 and if he were in on the whole thing he wouldn't be doing to well today.
The take may be a lot more than 250,000. Especially if it was sold overseass...say to an embargoed country.

Dale may have asked for a flat fee than a percentage.A fee like say $500,000. That exorbant fee may have been why he was killed by his co-conspirators. Or it might have been the other way around. Dale may have killed one of his co-conspirators to get a bigger take or even ran off with the entire haul. Maybe that;s why Dale is missing. Maybe it's not fear of the police..but fear of his own people coming after him.
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Old 04-29-2010, 02:34 PM   #97
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Wow, I'm surprised at how many people think he was in on it.

Not saying he was innocent, but the way he looked at the camera, looked pretty terrified to me.
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Old 04-29-2010, 03:01 PM   #98
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Wow, I'm surprised at how many people think he was in on it.

Not saying he was innocent, but the way he looked at the camera, looked pretty terrified to me.
I don;t see how you could tell anyone;s facial expressions from that grainy video.

Plus, wasn;t that video, UMs renactment video?

Regarding the video
I'm still trying to figure out

1. If Dale is innocentr, where was the hooded guys accomplice?
2. Where his hooded guys gun was, and why he felt no need to brandish it at this point.
3. What all the conversation between Dale and the hooded man was about? Especially considering that the conversation may have lasted before the video feed.
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Old 05-05-2010, 11:22 AM   #99
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Originally Posted by moneypenny10
The years have made us all accept his likely demise; at this point, it really wouldn't matter if there was evidence to suggest he was 100% involved or not, we just want to know what happened. He was the kind of person most people wish for in their lives, his guilt or innocent is irrelevant now, a simple closure to a complicated scenario would suit us all just fine.

Im a first time poster, and i know im a lil late posting, considering this thread has been around for a few years.

First, Id like to pass on my condolences to you MoneyPenny, and your family for your loss. Guilty or not guilty of this crime, all of you lost a beloved familiy member. Id also like to commend you for posting on here and giving information to all of us who watched the show, even though you lost so much. You have a lot of strength and courage, and should be so proud of that. Thank you, and I hope that someday you and your family get the answers that you deserve.

A few thoughts on the case.

1. I just dont buy into the fact that a family man with six children would all of the sudden run off and never contact them again. I guess its a possibility, but I doubt it. You said that the company stated that they lost 500 grand worth of platinum but possibly less than that. If your father was involved, theres ATLEAST two people involved in this crime, and possibly more. Trading in a family for 250 grand or less? I guess its possible, but again, unlikely. Yes, its a lot of money, but not the kind of money you can live off of for the rest of your life. Also this. I did read how he was 30 k in debt on a mortgage or something to that effect, but it was also noted in UM that he had Corning stock and other financial withholdings, so if he did infact partake in this crime and disapear for some new life, that would make his share of the 250 k, (or less) that much smaller because he would have to give those things up for this new life of his.

2. If Dale was involved with this crime, I dont think he necessarily HAD to disapear. Wouldnt it be just as easy to play a victim of a robbery, quietly take his share of the robbery at a later time AND keep his normal life and family?

3. A guy works for a place for 27 years and THEN decides to pull off a robbery? To me that makes no sense.

4. Its a smaller world out there than you think. Theres a better chance than not that had he infact been part of the robbery and disapeared that he would have been seen by somebody in the past 20-30 years, whether he went to Canada or elsewhere.

5. The look into the camera. Obviously we cant see the exact expression on his face as you did seeing the true surveillance video, but if infact he was a part of this crime, I just dont buy the theory the one guy said on the show about it possibly being a "stick it up your butt" kind of look. Again, if he was involved, why do anything that makes you look like youre in on it? It would only make authorities look that much harder for you when you leave town, because they would KNOW definitively that youre guilty, alive, and able to be found. Seems to me its much smarter to look like youre being forced to do these things, even if youre in on it. Also this. A look into the camera saying "F you", wouldnt just be an "F you" to the company, it would also be an "F you" to his family who he would have abandoned had he been in on it. I just dont buy it.

6. Had he been in on it, why didnt he come home after the statute of limitations were up?



Moneypenny, I dont know if youre still coming on here, although I saw you responded as recently as February, I think, and while Im sure youre tired of answering questions, I do have a few id love to ask you if and when you have the time.

Patrick Foley, the former personnel manager at the plant, stated on UM that the robber shows up on the surveillance footage, and shortly after that your father "met" up with him. I find the term "met" to be very interesting, as it implies guilt on your fathers part. Certainly you dont "meet" up with someone if someones pointing a gun at you, ordering you around. When you watched the footage, did the robber seem to have a gun? Also, did your father seem to "meet" the man, like Foley stated, as if he was of free will and not under control? Or were your fathers movements more of kind that a typical hostage would do had he been threatened with a gun or some other weapon? Was the robber brandishing a gun on the surveillance footage? UM makes no mention of it. Id love to know these things.

Id also ask you this, and forgive me if youve answered any of these questions before as Ive not read a every post. What was your opinion of the face that your father made when he looked at the camera? I know that UM probably tried to make the reenactment as real as possible, but what was the exact facial expression from the real footage that you saw? Was it a grin? Why does Foley seem to feel that it was a big "f you" to the company? Was it that obvious of a look that Foley felt he was guilty on UM? Im curious to know what you think, and what you thought the face and look at the camera implied.

One last question. Al, your brother, stated on UM that he felt your father was still alive, and would come back after the statute of limitations was over. Did he feel your father was in on it at the time the show was filmed, and what are his opinions of what happened today? Did they change at all since your dad didnt come home?



Sorry for the long post, I just had a bunch of things I wanted to get into, and thanks for your time. God bless you and your family.

Last edited by Chocolatetown; 05-05-2010 at 12:33 PM.
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Old 05-05-2010, 12:17 PM   #100
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1. I just dont buy into the fact that a family man with children would all of the sudden run off and never contact them again
He;s on the lam. If he contacts someone he runs the risk of his location being revealed and arrested. I'm pretty sure police were waiting for Dale to contact his family. Dale Kerstetter would not be the only criminal on the lam to not contact his loved ones.

Your making the assumption that Dale cared about his family.


Quote:
2. If Dale was involved with this crime, I dont think he neccesarily HAD to disapear. Wouldnt it be just as easy to play a victim of a robbery, quietly take his share of the robbery at a later time AND keep his normal life and family?
1.Because his face was shown on the camera with the masked man. Dale would be the first person questioned about the robbery. A good investigator might be able to find the holes in his story.

2. Your making the assumption that Dale cared about his family, again. Money has a weird way of changing peoples priorities.

3. Dale may very well be the patsy in this case. The man that was going to take the blame to protect the others.

Quote:
3. A guy works for a place for 27 years and THEN decides to pull off a robbery? To me that makes no sense.
1.If you ask that one guy in the segment, Dale's relationship with the company was not all rosy. There were conflicts.

2. Your assuming that everyone LOVES the places they work. Dale Kerstetter may have hated every day he worked at that place and jumped at the chance to steal from them and end his job there. I think If you polled a hundred people most of them would blow up their own office building and kill their own bosses if giving the opportunity.

Quote:
4. Its a smaller world out there than you think. Theres a better chance than not that had he infact been part of the robbery and dissapeared that he would have been seen by somebody in the past 20-30 years, whether he went to Canada or elsewhere.
1.There are hundreds of fellons that have disappeared over longer periods of time and have not been seen in years by people. It is possible to lam it and stay undetected for years.

2. Dale Kertstetter may have died of natural causes while on the lam.

3. Your overestimating the significance of this case in the mind of the general public.

Quote:
5. The look into the camera. Obviously we cant see the exact expression on his face as you did seeing the true surveillance video, but if infact he was a part of this crime, I just dont buy the theory the one guy said on the show about it possibly being a "stick it up your butt" kind of look. Again, if he was involved, why do anything that makes you look like youre in on it? It would only make authorities look that much harder for you if you leave town, and KNOW definitively that youre guilty, alive, and able to be found. Seems to me its much smarter to look like youre being forced to do these things, even if youre in on it. Also this. A look into the camera saying "F you", wouldnt just be an "F you" to the company, it would also be an "F you" to his family who he would have abandoned had he been in on it. I just dont buy it.
1. If Dale Kerstetter was going to lam it, the camera really doesn;t hurt him in anyway. His mere departure is going to make him a suspect anyway.

2. Considering the other guy has a mask on. The camera is not going to affect him.

3. It's quite possible that Dale noticed the camera and looked at it a second and simply walked away. People do that all the time when they notice security cameras.

Quote:
6. Had he been in on it, why didnt he come home after the statute of limitations were up?
Moneypenny, I dont know if youre still coming on here, although I saw you responded as recently as February, I think, and while Im sure youre tired of answering questions, I do have a few id love to ask you if and when you have the time.
There are numerous reasons why Dale has not returned.

1. He may have died while on the lam. Or he may be incapacitated.
2. There may be other crimes that Dale committed that do not have expired limitations. Like perhaps the murder of his accomplice.
3. I don;t know about you, but if I'm living in Acupulco, Mexico by the beach living it up. It would be pretty hard for me to go back home.
4. Dale may not care about his family as much as we think. He may enjoy the piece and quiet of not having to deal with family problems.
5. Dale may have another wife and family. Not easy to abandon them to rejoin his family.
6. Just because you aren't convicted of a crime, doesn;t mean that people won;t look at you like a criminal. Can you imagine Dale going back to that town with people knowing he got away with robbery? Forget about getting work in that town, I would think Dale would have to sleep with one eye open!!
7. The other conspirators on the robbery may not like it if Dale comes back after all these years. Those conspirators may still be active criminals and may fear that Dale will snitch or write a book. Those people may decide to kill Dale or his family.
8. There could be a tax issue here regarding the proceeds of the robbery. Even if statute of limitations is up...Dale has to explain where that money came from and why he hasn;t been paying taxes.
9. This is going to sound funny....but Dale may be too lazy to come back. he may be so comfortable in his new life that going back to his family is too much for the old guy.

Quote:
When you watched the footage, did the robber seem to have a gun? A
No. And more improtantly if he did have one, he saw no need to brandish it at Dale. Which is strange since he;s wearing a mask and has already met Dale. It;s not like covering up the gun is going to make him look inconspicuous.

Considering he just ran into Dale, it seems curious that this guy doesn;t feel the need to keep the gun on Dale.
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Old 05-05-2010, 12:19 PM   #101
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Would Dale have know the help sign?

http://www.airsoftgent.be/dbase/hands.htm

Why didn;t he use it? I know police are trained to use it and military.

Not sure on security guards.

Why did Dale not use ANY type of hand signal to alert the camera. A hurried wave to the camera, for example. A baseball sign. Anything

A nod or shake of the head would be a perfect signal.

Heck even a mouthing of the word help, would suffice.

All Dale appears to do is stare at the camera.
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Old 05-05-2010, 02:01 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by Mastermind
He;s on the lam. If he contacts someone he runs the risk of his location being revealed and arrested. I'm pretty sure police were waiting for Dale to contact his family. Dale Kerstetter would not be the only criminal on the lam to not contact his loved ones.

Your making the assumption that Dale cared about his family.




1.Because his face was shown on the camera with the masked man. Dale would be the first person questioned about the robbery. A good investigator might be able to find the holes in his story.

2. Your making the assumption that Dale cared about his family, again. Money has a weird way of changing peoples priorities.

3. Dale may very well be the patsy in this case. The man that was going to take the blame to protect the others.



1.If you ask that one guy in the segment, Dale's relationship with the company was not all rosy. There were conflicts.

2. Your assuming that everyone LOVES the places they work. Dale Kerstetter may have hated every day he worked at that place and jumped at the chance to steal from them and end his job there. I think If you polled a hundred people most of them would blow up their own office building and kill their own bosses if giving the opportunity.



1.There are hundreds of fellons that have disappeared over longer periods of time and have not been seen in years by people. It is possible to lam it and stay undetected for years.

2. Dale Kertstetter may have died of natural causes while on the lam.

3. Your overestimating the significance of this case in the mind of the general public.



1. If Dale Kerstetter was going to lam it, the camera really doesn;t hurt him in anyway. His mere departure is going to make him a suspect anyway.

2. Considering the other guy has a mask on. The camera is not going to affect him.

3. It's quite possible that Dale noticed the camera and looked at it a second and simply walked away. People do that all the time when they notice security cameras.



There are numerous reasons why Dale has not returned.

1. He may have died while on the lam. Or he may be incapacitated.
2. There may be other crimes that Dale committed that do not have expired limitations. Like perhaps the murder of his accomplice.
3. I don;t know about you, but if I'm living in Acupulco, Mexico by the beach living it up. It would be pretty hard for me to go back home.
4. Dale may not care about his family as much as we think. He may enjoy the piece and quiet of not having to deal with family problems.
5. Dale may have another wife and family. Not easy to abandon them to rejoin his family.
6. Just because you aren't convicted of a crime, doesn;t mean that people won;t look at you like a criminal. Can you imagine Dale going back to that town with people knowing he got away with robbery? Forget about getting work in that town, I would think Dale would have to sleep with one eye open!!
7. The other conspirators on the robbery may not like it if Dale comes back after all these years. Those conspirators may still be active criminals and may fear that Dale will snitch or write a book. Those people may decide to kill Dale or his family.
8. There could be a tax issue here regarding the proceeds of the robbery. Even if statute of limitations is up...Dale has to explain where that money came from and why he hasn;t been paying taxes.
9. This is going to sound funny....but Dale may be too lazy to come back. he may be so comfortable in his new life that going back to his family is too much for the old guy.



No. And more improtantly if he did have one, he saw no need to brandish it at Dale. Which is strange since he;s wearing a mask and has already met Dale. It;s not like covering up the gun is going to make him look inconspicuous.

Considering he just ran into Dale, it seems curious that this guy doesn;t feel the need to keep the gun on Dale.
You make some fair points at times during this.

But.

Man I wish I knew how to quote like you did. It would make this much easier.

Ill just go down the line.

First one, and I find it funny you use the word "assume", when clearly youre doing the same thing by saying he didnt care about his family. Almost everything we have seen on UM or from his daughter on here, is that Dale genuinely cared for his family. His mother, daughter, and son all stated that he was a good and honest person, who DID care about his family. Hardly an assumption on my part, and at worse MUCH MUCH less of an assumption than you saying he didnt. The facts are we have very little to no proof that he DIDNT. Youre making the assumption, not I. Look, he could have been involved, all im saying is that this lack of caring about his family feeling you have about the guy, doesnt match up to the way the guy lived for x amount of years around them.

The camera. A good investigator MIGHT have been able to poke holes in his story, IFFFFFFF he was infact guilty and stayed in town, but he might not have. We have 3 measly cameras in this plant, with what looks like very little amount of footage of the actual crime being committed. The footage that is there only shows the masked man committing crimes. Now yes, it is troubling that what we see doesnt seem to show a gun, but there are so many ways to just concoct a story and not be caught considering the small amount of actual evidence that is there. He could have went out to smoke a cig and the guy pulls a gun on him. Inside jobs happen everyday that people dont get caught for. He didnt have to necessarily leave town if he was involved.

The 27 year thing. Where exactly do you get that I said everyone loves their job? Thats quite a stretch considering what I typed. Almost EVERYONE has conflicts and issues with their jobs at one point or another. If robberies happened because of people having issues with their jobs, there wouldnt be enough prisons in the country to house the amount of people. Its just a huge leap to say that because the guy had conflicts with his work, that he partook in a robbery of it. Fact of the matter is, its a rarity to have a guy work for that long of a period of time to then rob it. Could it be? Sure, but again, its not something you typically see. Thats the point I made.

As far as the national recognition of this case, and him not being seen for almost 30 years. Ill agree with you that this case isnt exactly OJ Simpsonesque in terms of its notoriety, but it was on a very popular TV show that did have a lot of crimes and other things solved by it that also werent mainstream stories. Plus, its not like UM has really ever gone off the air, they have replayed them over and over and repackaged them even as of today. A lot of people have seen this case, as you can see from this forum. If hes in another country, I will give you that it might be easier for the guy to not be spotted, but still, a lot of people have seen this story. Millions for sure.

The look. Youre playing both sides of the fence here. The camera absolutely affects him if hes going to go on the lam if he makes an "F you" type face, or any other that cements his role in this crime. His departure doesnt necessarily mean hes a suspect. You see from the responses on here that a huge chunk of people think the guy forced to do these things and was killed afterwards. I feel as though whether he was involved or not, he was murdered. If he was involved though, again, the logical thing to do is to just play it smooth and play it like you werent a willing party here. Things die off a lot easier when people think youre a dead man and not walking around living life with stolen money basically.

You and I differ about the leaving the family thing. Again, I think your opinion that he left willingly to start a new life is wrong, and we will have to agree to disagree. To me, theres two logical reasons as to why he didnt come back. A, he wasnt involved and was murdered, or B, he was involved and was murdered. Sure, theres a possibility that the guy took out his co conspirator, but I doubt that based on the fact that this is an old man who if involved was probably only involved because someone else brought him into it, and possibly used him just to gain access to the plant. Its far more likely to me that HE was the guy that was killed, not some mobster type of guy who eliminates the witnesses. Again, he could have possibly, but I doubt it. It would have been a HUGE leap from the life that we know the man lived for 50 years. It is of my opinion that he would have atleast contacted someone in his family at some point. I think if he was involved he had every intention of coming back, after whatever period of time it was.

It does bother me about the fact I dont see a gun. That and the fact that Pat Foley seems adament that Dale was mocking Corning when he made a face at that camera. If hes smiling at the camera, to me, that is huge. I also want to know what "meet" means, in terms of that footage, and if its clear that both Dale and the masked man are of free will the entire time. I just really wish I could see the real footage, the entire footage, because I think theres answers there.

Last edited by Chocolatetown; 05-05-2010 at 03:12 PM.
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Old 05-05-2010, 03:55 PM   #103
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First one, and I find it funny you use the word "assume", when clearly youre doing the same thing by saying he didnt care about his family. Almost everything we have seen on UM or from his daughter on here, is that Dale genuinely cared for his family. His mother, daughter, and son all stated that he was a good and honest person, who DID care about his family. Hardly an assumption on my part, and at worse MUCH MUCH less of an assumption than you saying he didnt.
1.I assume nothing about Dale Kerstetter's family life. He could have been loved his family or hated them with a passion. Any awful family problems would be hidden unless someone in the family feels the need to bring it forward.

2. What family members don;t try to put their family in the best light? How many times have we seen family members try to paint suspects in the best light? if we listen to the family members opinions all the time, every suspect in any crime is the model citizen.

3. Even, Richard Kulkinski was a good father. Being a family man doesn;t mean you can;t be a criminal.

Quote:
The camera. A good investigator MIGHT have been able to poke holes in his story, IFFFFFFF he was infact guilty and stayed in town, but he might not have. We have 3 measly cameras in this plant, with what looks like very little amount of footage of the actual crime being committed. The footage that is there only shows the masked man committing crimes. Now yes, it is troubling that what we see doesnt seem to show a gun, but there are so many ways to just concoct a story and not be caught considering the small amount of actual evidence that is there. He could have went out to smoke a cig and the guy pulls a gun on him. Inside jobs happen everyday that people dont get caught for. He didnt have to necessarily leave town if he was involved.
1. If Dale was in town and was being brought in for questioning by the police...how would Dale know what was on the tape? or that there was a tape to begin with?

Why would the investigator would let Dale see the tape beforehand?

The interrogation would be done without Dale's knowledge of the tape. That is where he could be tripped up.




Quote:
The 27 year thing. Where exactly do you get that I said everyone loves their job? Thats quite a stretch considering what I typed. Almost EVERYONE has conflicts and issues with their jobs at one point or another. If robberies happened because of people having issues with their jobs, there wouldnt be enough prisons in the country to house the amount of people. Its just a huge leap to say that because the guy had conflicts with his work, that he partook in a robbery of it. Fact of the matter is, its a rarity to have a guy work for that long of a period of time to then rob it. Could it be? Sure, but again, its not something you typically see. Thats the point I made.
Then why did you bring up the 27 year thing, to begin with?

Quote:
As far as the national recognition of this case, and him not being seen for almost 30 years. Ill agree with you that this case isnt exactly OJ Simpsonesque in terms of its notoriety, but it was on a very popular TV show that did have a lot of crimes and other things solved by it that also werent mainstream stories. Plus, its not like UM has really ever gone off the air, they have replayed them over and over and repackaged them even as of today. A lot of people have seen this case, as you can see from this forum. If hes in another country, I will give you that it might be easier for the guy to not be spotted, but still, a lot of people have seen this story. Millions for sure.
Your really overrating the capabilities of UM in capturing felons. Your also being naive at the capabilities of people to stay hidden from law enforcement.

1. this forum only got created what 8 years ago? And there are how many regulars? I myself only got hear a year or two ago?
2. If Dale Kerstetter grew a beard, I'm pretty sure most of us wouldn't recognize him.
3.I have watched UM during it;s original run and during Lifetime and to be honest I didn;t remember this episode until watching it recently. I'm pretty sure I;m not in the minority of people who didn't remember this episode originally.

Quote:
but I doubt that based on the fact that this is an old man who if involved was probably only involved because someone else brought him into it, and possibly used him just to gain access to the plant
That's kind of ageist. What, old people can;t rob and steal like other people?
Old people can;t committ murder and fraud?

Dale Kerstetter wasn;t exactly a cripple or doddering old man. He seemed to be more than capable.

Not to mention that he had his much younger "cohort" in the black mask to help him. It seemed the chap in the black mask did most of the heavy lifting. All Dale probably did was plan the caper.

Quote:
he left willingly to start a new life is wrong, and we will have to agree to disagree.
If Dale is on the lam, he can do whatever the heck he wants to do. As long as it doesn;t hurt expose him to the police, why not meet a nice 50 year old widow and start up a new life. He certainly wouldn;t be the first criminal to start a new life with another woman.


Quote:
To me, theres two logical reasons as to why he didnt come back. A, he wasnt involved and was murdered,
What you referring to is one reason, not two. If he wasn;t involved then he was murdered. Those aren;t two logical reasons.

If Dale went on the lam and died, wouldn;t that be a logical reason why he didn;t come back???

Quote:
The camera absolutely affects him if hes going to go on the lam if he makes an "F you" type face, or any other that cements his role in this crime. His departure doesnt necessarily mean hes a suspect.
You do realize that if he;s on the lam, he's alive and can be captured? Hence he becomes a suspect immediatley once he;s been found by the police. Camera face or not,

You also have to realize, that unless his body is found, the police are going to look for him regardless of whether he is a suspect or not.

Quote:
You see from the responses on here that a huge chunk of people think the guy forced to do these things and was killed afterwards.
There's a fair chunk of people who believe that Dr. MacDonald is innocent of killing his wife and an equal amount that believe he is innocent.

What's your point?

Quote:
I feel as though whether he was involved or not, he was murdered.
There has been no body or any evidence of murder. Dale Kersteter is a missing person.

Quote:
If he was involved though, again, the logical thing to do is to just play it smooth and play it like you werent a willing party here. Things die off a lot easier when some people think youre a dead man and not walking around living life with stolen money basically.
1.Your forgetting that money aspect of this. Dale needs to get his share of the money. Money which could be traced right back to Dale. Dale needs to have a way of spending this money and hiding it. Going on the Lam seems a good way to avoid people looking into your money. Dale could even keep the money in a suitcase.

2. Another thing to consider is that if Dale planned this, Dale had to have met with the person buying the steel. If this was a small operation, Dale may have been in on the payoff meeting. Which means that someone has seen Dale Kerstetter alive after the robbery. Granted.

3. If this was a large scale operation, it isn;t that impossible to believe that they designated Dale as a patsy. If this was part of a large smuggling operation.
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Old 05-05-2010, 04:00 PM   #104
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Chocolatetown,

If Dale Kerstetter was killed by his robbers...why?

1.Why would they risk a murder charge on this much money?

2. Why do we see only one robber? Where is his accomplice? Was this guy going to move all this stuff himself? Was he going to be wholly dependent on Dale's compliance?

3. Why would the risk time, effort (and space in the truck!!!) on Dale's burying Dale's body?
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Old 05-05-2010, 06:29 PM   #105
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1.I assume nothing about Dale Kerstetter's family life. He could have been loved his family or hated them with a passion. Any awful family problems would be hidden unless someone in the family feels the need to bring it forward.

2. What family members don;t try to put their family in the best light? How many times have we seen family members try to paint suspects in the best light? if we listen to the family members opinions all the time, every suspect in any crime is the model citizen.

3. Even, Richard Kulkinski was a good father. Being a family man doesn;t mean you can;t be a criminal.



1. You absolutely assume he doesnt care about his family. You said in an earlier post that you feel he was infact involved in the robbery? Did you not? A person who DOES care about their family doesnt up and leave them hanging for all this time without contacting them. Fact is you have no evidence to support that he DIDNT care about them, and would leave them high and dry.

2. Family members paint their criminal relatives as bad people ALL THE TIME . Typically in shows or documentaries about crimes and criminals, they dont even interview the criminals family, so how can you say such a blanket statement like that? Plenty of family members of the accused and convicted call a spade a spade, regardless of blood and plenty of them testify in court against their family member or members that are tried. Working in a D.A.s office, I personally see it ALL THE TIME. Stories like this and others on TV the VICTIMS and their families reactions are focused on, typically you dont even get the family member of the accused's opinions.

3. This makes absolutely no sense, especially in regards to what I said. Were talking about a parent not caring about his children, not the fact that he couldnt be a criminal because he was a family guy. Theres plenty of good parents that love their kids and are criminals, that however, has nothing to do with what I said or what we are discussing.

1. If Dale was in town and was being brought in for questioning by the police...how would Dale know what was on the tape? or that there was a tape to begin with?

Why would the investigator would let Dale see the tape beforehand?

The interrogation would be done without Dale's knowledge of the tape. That is where he could be tripped up How would Dale know what was on the tape?


The guy had worked there for a LONG time, and as shown by his glance at the camera, he knew where they were, and that he was on camera. As for how would he know that there was a tape to begin with, common sense tells you that if theres a camera, its PROBABLY GOING TO BE A TAPED ONE! Millions of dollars worth things in that factory, and Corning is only going to have a live feed for their ONE security guard? Even throwing that out the window, which is huge, theres reason to believe from working there as long as he did, hes going to know the ins and outs of the companies security, and the fact that the cameras record.

Then why did you bring up the 27 year thing, to begin with?

Its ATYPICAL to see a guy work for a company for 27 years and then suddenly decide to rob it. Is that something you see a lot? Because I sure dont, and I work in an office where we try people for theft and grand larceny at the workplace from time to time. Very rare.

Your really overrating the capabilities of UM in capturing felons. Your also being naive at the capabilities of people to stay hidden from law enforcement.

1. this forum only got created what 8 years ago? And there are how many regulars? I myself only got hear a year or two ago?
2. If Dale Kerstetter grew a beard, I'm pretty sure most of us wouldn't recognize him.
3.I have watched UM during it;s original run and during Lifetime and to be honest I didn;t remember this episode until watching it recently. I'm pretty sure I;m not in the minority of people who didn't remember this episode originally.


1. What does a forum like this have to do with cases being solved? or not being solved? Are you really saying that the popularity of UM in the past and present is represented by the number of people in this forum? lol Sure, there are criminals that remain uncaptured, but the fact is that many were indeed captured because of UM, and the popularity of the show!

2. Another blanket statement based on YOUR beliefs. Some here might not recognize him with a beard, and some might. That all depends on your memory, attention, and observation skills. Many of the people that were captured as a result of the UM show changed their appearance, and were still caught. If you watch the show, and you happen to live next door to a guy that appears on the show for killing his wife, you are probably going to recognize him. You and I obviously dont live next to him, thus his face isnt going to ring as much of a bell for you.

3. Again, thats YOU. I remembered this story from seeing it. Im sure others do as well. I will give you that the longer time goes on, without reairs, that it gets easier to stay on the loose, but again, thats common sense and really doesnt have to do with anything that I stated.

That's kind of ageist. What, old people can;t rob and steal like other people?
Old people can;t committ murder and fraud?

Dale Kerstetter wasn;t exactly a cripple or doddering old man. He seemed to be more than capable.

Not to mention that he had his much younger "cohort" in the black mask to help him. It seemed the chap in the black mask did most of the heavy lifting. All Dale probably did was plan the caper


You obviously didnt understand what I meant. I didnt say that its unlikely that Dale was the brains behind this caper because he was a feeble old man. What Im saying is that its not likely for a man who seems to be a normal, law abiding citizen (within reason) to turn into a guy who not only robs the place, but leave his family and start whacking off his cohorts. Its a HUGE leap for a guy who seemed to live a normal everyday life. Could it happen? Anything is possible, but its not LIKELY and something that happens all the time lol.

If Dale is on the lam, he can do whatever the heck he wants to do. As long as it doesn;t hurt expose him to the police, why not meet a nice 50 year old widow and start up a new life. He certainly wouldn;t be the first criminal to start a new life with another woman.

Well I dont really understand what a woman has to do with it, as from what I saw on this case, Dale was no longer married anyway. Sure, he could have met some woman and made house with her. Thats different from abandoning your kids and let them rot not knowing what happened to you or if youre dead or alive. Especially considering he was a loving father.

What you referring to is one reason, not two. If he wasn;t involved then he was murdered. Those aren;t two logical reasons.

If Dale went on the lam and died, wouldn;t that be a logical reason why he didn;t come back???


You didnt quote the whole sentence that i wrote there. I said I believe that there are TWO logical reasons that he would not have contacted his kids in the past 30 years. 1. He was not involved with the robbery and was murdered shortly after, and 2. He was involved, and was murdered by his cohort.

As for him going on the lam and dying, sure that would be a logical reason, but again I DONT BELIEVE THAT lol. What I stated as to being 2 reasons, WAS MY OPINION lol.

You do realize that if he;s on the lam, he's alive and can be captured? Hence he becomes a suspect immediatley once he;s been found by the police. Camera face or not,

You also have to realize, that unless his body is found, the police are going to look for him regardless of whether he is a suspect or not.

Absolutely he can be captured, and absolutely he becomes a suspect once found. My point was that if he smiles or sticks his thumb up to the camera as hes walking out, there probably isnt ANY doubt that the guy IS involved, and arrest warrants are sought and other authorities are notified that normally wouldnt be.

Sure they will look for him whether he is a suspect or not, but if they KNOW hes a part of the crime, as opposed to being a victim and possibly dead somewhere, the sense of urgency to find Dale goes up, as well as the manpower, atleast in the short term.

There's a fair chunk of people who believe that Dr. MacDonald is innocent of killing his wife and an equal amount that believe he is innocent.

What's your point?


Hes automatically a person of interest just by working there. Him departing doesnt necessarily make him a suspect. Had the masked man put a gun to his head the entire time, him departing would make it more likely that the police would be looking for a body, not a potential criminal.

1.Your forgetting that money aspect of this. Dale needs to get his share of the money. Money which could be traced right back to Dale. Dale needs to have a way of spending this money and hiding it. Going on the Lam seems a good way to avoid people looking into your money. Dale could even keep the money in a suitcase.

2. Another thing to consider is that if Dale planned this, Dale had to have met with the person buying the steel. If this was a small operation, Dale may have been in on the payoff meeting. Which means that someone has seen Dale Kerstetter alive after the robbery. Granted.


3. If this was a large scale operation, it isn;t that impossible to believe that they designated Dale as a patsy. If this was part of a large smuggling operation

1. Sure, going on the lam is a possible way to have people not see your money, but there are plenty of criminals such as bank robbers that bury it in a backyard or wherever. Are you saying THE ONLY way to avoid people knowing you have money is to go on the lam? I hope not lol.

2. If he was involved, he could have been in on the meeting, or if he really knew the cohort and trusted him, he might not have had to be I suppose. I guess it depends on how much he was willing to stick his neck out there and let people know he was involved in this. Assuming he was at such a meeting, either directly with the buyers, or using another person who seemed more legitimate to sell the platinum, SOMEBODY would have knowledge of his being alive, yes. But we have nobody so far that has come forth with such information, and probably never will at this point.

3. IMO I dont think that it was that much of a large scale thing. I think if Dale was involved, that it was something either a former coworker or criminal friend and him kicked around. Im glad you brought this up actually, because it struck me as absurd when i rewatched this story this morning. A 100k square foot factory, with MILLIONS of dollars of machinery AND the platinum, and their security consists of one man and three lousy cameras? It didnt even seem like entrances were being filmed as you would think they would, because UM didnt show or mention anything about how the masked man got into the building. This place IMO was RIPE for the taking, and it kind of reminds me of the movie "Good Fellas" when Frenchy was calling the security "a joke" at Idlewild Airport. Could it have been a huge theft ring involved? Sure, but it doesnt sound like you had to do much to get your hands on that stuff. Either bribe or involve the ONE security guard, or just catch him off guard, steal the stuff, and kill him. Its really easy. As far as the patsy goes, sure that is a logical possibility. People use others to help them committ crimes all the time and then whack them either for their share, or to leave them looking the guilty party. Me, personally, im not sold that Dale was involved, only because theres not anywhere near enough evidence to say so definitively IMO.

Look, i tried to leave my last post quietly, because im not gonna sit here and do the back and forth thing where you try to nail me to the cross and pick apart what I believe. You can keep going with the quoting thing and what seems to be the condescending attitude, but im not going to hog this thread with a back and forth with you. Again, you can believe what you want, and thats fine. I believe what I do.

Like I said before, you make some good points. The lack of gun being brandished is an issue. If there was infact a smile, or something cocky to that effect that Dale did when looking at the camera, that is hard to explain off as well. I just think with what we know for a fact right now, based on the fact that this guy was a normal and regular family guy, him being involved in this is such a Dr. Jeckyll and Mr. Hyde type thing, that I need more to believe he was involved.

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