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Old 09-04-2014, 01:20 AM   #331
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Originally Posted by UM_FAN_79
I'm watching the part when the "crazy from Detroit" walks into the record store and tells the cashier "You're gonna find him dead in two days." How could he possibly know exactly when police would find his body? This guy may have been at the party and may have known about what happened to Kurt, but I think it's more likely that he told the cashier "You're gonna find him dead in a few days" or "You're gonna find him dead in a couple days" and the cashier just misunderstood what he said.
"couple" means two, as in married couple. A few could also mean two.
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Old 09-26-2014, 01:16 PM   #332
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I feel very sad for the parents but this is a cut-and-dry case. Kurt got himself involved with hardcore partiers, didn't know his limits, and either OD'd or got on the wrong side of the wrong people in his drunken state.
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Old 10-01-2014, 12:26 PM   #333
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The autopsy always bothered me a lot. How could they not find a cause of death? The OD theory cant really be a possibility if there wasn't enough alcohol or any drugs in his system to kill him. There was no bruises, contusions, or anything to suggest a fight or struggle as if he got into a drunken fight than unintentionally ended his life. Unless this autopsy was done wrong or the examiner was completely incompetent, that really rules out an overdose or fight scenario.
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Old 10-01-2014, 03:22 PM   #334
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actually he was believed to have been alive for at least two to three days after he disappeared. Some substances could have been out of his system by the time his body was found or he was killed per say.
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Old 10-01-2014, 05:56 PM   #335
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JenniferS.
actually he was believed to have been alive for at least two to three days after he disappeared. Some substances could have been out of his system by the time his body was found or he was killed per say.
I believe he was found approximately 24-36 hours after the estimated time of death. If he had died of an overdose whether alcohol or drug related it would've been found.

He had alcohol in his system according to the medical examiner but not nearly enough to cause death. So, I believe, unless the medical examiners office is incompetent, it would've been found. Bodies have been found decomposing and they were still able to determine if it was an overdose. Testing your internal tissues are very different than a standard urine / blood test that people take to test if they are on drugs.

and since signs of a physical altercation say from a drunken brawl dont heal after death..I dont get it.

Even if he died of an undiagnosed heart condition, a good autopsy would've found that. I bet if the autopsy was performed today with a talented medical examiner, instead of all those years ago the results would've been different.
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Old 10-01-2014, 10:13 PM   #336
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Actually the episode did not make it sound like autopsy was done right at all. First they say he may have died 24 to 36 hours earlier and they changed it to two to three days earlier. At any rate the cops totally dropped the ball on this one. Why did the cops not go down and do testing in the basement room were he was said to have stayed the night and question the girl who had the party? its like they dumped it all on the parents to do their job for them. I also think a second autopsy should have been done.
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Old 10-02-2014, 08:39 AM   #337
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I totally agree! I think because the medical examiner put "probable accidental" as the cause of death, they didn't investigate it as thoroughly or seriously as they would've had they actually had the cause of death.

Given the lack of physical signs of an altercation or any marks on him, I'm inclined to believe it was some sort of overdose or reaction to something he took. Also, I doubt he would've stayed with these people just to hang out ( he didn't really know them) for days until he ended up dead.

According to article, people at the party claimed he was drinking Everclear. Now, for someone who's not a hardened drinker, that is deadly stuff. Also, if he mixed that with anything, that could be incredibly dangerous.

The eyewitness account of seeing him Monday, I doubt. We all know how reliable the eye witnesses accounts are. Im not saying its impossible but he could've gotten his days mixed up ect.

I believe something happened at the party and most likely he took a drug or drank too much Everclear (which isn't hard) from someone at the party. He became seriously ill or unconscious. They panicked and instead of calling 911 or taking him to a hospital for fear of getting in trouble for giving a 17 year old alcohol or drugs, they hoped he would just get better. That would make sense why the girl who owned the house lied to Kurts mom.

It also gives some truth to Kurts friends story that he got very sick at the party and he took him outside for some fresh air. I don't believe the end of the story that when he came back outside with Kurts coat, he just vanished. Seriously ill people don't go very far.

When he didn't recover and died a few days later, they didn't know what to do. I think the girl who owned the house called Kurts parents at 3am because he had died or was close to death and she wanted his parents to find him. However, I think the plan changed again when either her or the other guys thought better of it. They probably thought if he was found dead in her basement the investigation would obviously lead back to the party and their responsibility. So I believe they decided to leave his body in the ravine so his parents would still find him but hoping it wouldn't tie them directly to his death.

I think the medical examiner either botched the toxicology report or didn't test for all or the substances. I don't know how advanced this county's technology was in 1981 but I am pretty confident had these tests been done today with a competent medical examiner it would've been concluded as an overdose and those who gave him alcohol or drugs would've been held accountable for their role in his death
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Old 10-02-2014, 09:23 AM   #338
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Toxicology testing was around in 1981. Not being a physician, let alone a medical examiner, I do not know if toxicology testing (and especially testing back then) commonly employed standardized panels (like modern urinalysis drug testing, which may test for 7-10 different drugs at the same time). I tend to doubt it, however. I think most toxicology testing is pointed and specific. For instance, if poisoning with antifreeze is suspected, there may be tests performed to test for the presence of ethylene glycol in tissues and NOTHING else.

I think of the Shannon Mohr case. Provided, succinylcholine poisoning is difficult to detect even 34 years later, but those Michigan investigators had to go to Sweden to be able to have access to the appropriate testing for that chemical. I wouldn't greatly expect the medical examiner of Cuyahoga County, OH to even know where to begin on Kurt Sova's death, because it IS highly unusual from what little we know about it physiologically. His ruling was the most appropriate response he could have given.

I think the much bigger problem was with the police. I feel like any one of us probably could have done a better job than those involved in the initial investigation.
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Old 10-02-2014, 10:00 AM   #339
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I agree whether it was the police, the medical examiners office, ect or both the ball was dropped. I'm just saying someone didn't do something correctly because there is always is a cause of death even if its natural. I don't think this was murder though. I think it had everything to due with that he took or was given at that party. If anything it was a case of manslaughter ect. There have been cases where the toxicology reports were wrong or done incorrectly even within recent memory so I'm not saying it must be the technology but someone screwed something up
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Old 07-02-2015, 04:42 PM   #340
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More bad news Kurt's mother passed away in December 2014
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Old 07-04-2015, 01:01 PM   #341
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Quote:
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More bad news Kurt's mother passed away in December 2014
RIP

It's sad that his parents never found out EXACTLY what happened to him to cause his death. He does have some brothers that are still living.

There's really only 2 ways there will ever be any new developments in this case:

1. Assuming they are still alive, interview the KNOWN names of people (not "Susan" or "whacko from Detroit") that were at the duplex party back then. Two of the people that were renting it were siblings Clayton and Debbie Sams (according to the 1991 Cleveland Plain-Dealer article). The friend that Kurt supposedly walked to the party with was named Samuel C. Carroll.

2. Exhume Kurt's body and perform a new autopsy.
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Old 08-09-2015, 05:38 PM   #342
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve W.

2. Exhume Kurt's body and perform a new autopsy.
It's hard to believe that a new autopsy never crossed Kurt's family's mind. After Patsy Wright died, they checked for something like 10,000 foreign substances in her blood and finally discovered that she had been killed by strychnine. Also, some drugs (such as arsenic) will not show up on autopsies unless they're specifically tested for. Not that someone poisoned him, but you never know.
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Old 08-09-2015, 06:02 PM   #343
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I agree that there really should have been a second autopsy. Another ME with fresh eyes should have looked the case over. Maybe Kurt's family didn't want to or they were discouraged from doing so, but I don't think we ever heard about a reason on UM or in any articles.

That being said, perhaps whatever was in Kurt's system had left by the time he died, but another look would have been a good idea.

I've never thought this was a murder, but I've always believed that people at the party knew what happened. He took something that caused him harm or a combination of things.
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Old 08-19-2015, 09:13 AM   #344
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Quote:
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I agree that there really should have been a second autopsy. Another ME with fresh eyes should have looked the case over. Maybe Kurt's family didn't want to or they were discouraged from doing so, but I don't think we ever heard about a reason on UM or in any articles.

That being said, perhaps whatever was in Kurt's system had left by the time he died, but another look would have been a good idea.

I've never thought this was a murder, but I've always believed that people at the party knew what happened. He took something that caused him harm or a combination of things.

A second autopsy could still be done, as long as his corpse is still in good enough condition. Joyce McLain's grave was exhumed after 28 years for that very reason and there have been others that have been as well after a similarly lengthy period of time.
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Old 10-23-2015, 09:43 AM   #345
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Today is the date and day of the week (Friday) that Kurt skipped school and ended up going to that party at the duplex back in 1981.

I think Samuel C. Carroll or someone else still knows the truth. They need to come forward and give up all the details.
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