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Old 07-16-2015, 07:07 PM   #166
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Originally Posted by MegtheEgg86
A few thoughts on Justin Burgwinkel:

1. Ever consistent, UM once again doesn't make clear what Burgwinkel's actual MOS in the Army was.

Burgwinkel could have been an intelligence analyst, a Patriot fire control enhanced operator, an infantryman, or a human resource specialist. Each of those jobs would have different implications in the context of the entire story.

I wasn't in the Army of the early '90s--but I know about the only "kitchen duty" Soldiers do today is in tiny combat outposts such as those in Afghanistan. Dining facilities today are managed and operated by civilian contractors or Soldiers who actually joined the Army TO cook and manage dining facilities (the MOS is 92G: food service specialist). It could have been different in 1993. I don't know.

The main point is that A) we don't know what Burgwinkel actually did in the Army, and B) "kitchen duty" hasn't been an Army garrison reality since probably about the 1960s. It seems more probable to me that Burgwinkel either actually WAS a food service specialist, or was involuntarily re-classed from whatever job he was doing before TO food service specialist, for whatever reason.

2. The "Ranger program" thing is very confusing.

U.S. Army Ranger School is a two-month course held in three phases at three different locations--Ft Benning, GA, Camp Merrill, GA, and Eglin Air Force Base, FL. THIS is the actual course. It is one of the Army's most physically and mentally challenging schools, and the pass rate is low.

Many units hold "pre-Ranger" courses to prepare Soldiers who have received Ranger School slots. These courses usually last anywhere from two to three weeks and serve primarily to give future trainees a small glimpse of what to expect as well as "weed out" anyone who may stand a low chance of graduating. They are "field" training events--that is, you're "in the field" the entire time you're there. You're not going back at night to sleep at home or in barracks.

It should also be noted that completing Ranger School does NOT put you in a "Ranger unit", or mean your actual job is "Army Ranger." Here's how it works:

Joe Snuffy's MOS is 11B: infantryman. Joe's rank is Staff Sergeant, E-6.

SSG Snuffy receives a Ranger School slot. He attends his unit's internal "pre-Ranger" course for two weeks, and then attends the actual Ranger School in Georgia and Florida.

He graduates the course and may now wear a "Ranger" tab on his shoulder to show that he is "qualified"--that is, he successfully passed.

We can now call SSG Snuffy a Ranger, but that is NOT his job. His job is still 11B, infantryman. "Ranger" is a qualification he earned, but not his job.

Here is another example using a different Army course--Airborne School:

Jane Smith is a 35F: intelligence analyst. Her rank is Specialist, E-4.

SPC Smith attends Airborne School at Ft Benning, GA and passes. She may now wear "Airborne wings" on the front of her uniform to show that she is Airborne-qualified.

We may now say SPC Smith is "Airborne", but her job remains the same: intelligence analyst.

Given all this, I don't understand what's meant by the term "Ranger program". About the only thing I can think of is that perhaps Burgwinkel needed, or felt he needed, extensive physical conditioning to prepare for a potential Ranger School slot, and perhaps his unit offered such a program during non-duty hours or as an alternative to regular unit physical training in the morning. This informal thing then took on a very official, serious life when some UM researcher who didn't know a damn thing about the military decided it was a lot more serious and official than what it actually was. I submit that this is likely what occurred.

3. I also don't understand the bit about "language training." Language training isn't part of Ranger School. It IS required, of course, for linguists and many Special Forces specialties, however. Many, many Special Forces Soldiers complete Ranger School prior to their SF training--so perhaps what Burgwinkel ACTUALLY wanted to do was be an SF Soldier. Ranger School would have been a mere stepping stone on that path.


I am in total agreement with Cars that Burgwinkel was actually involved in something real and illegal that may or may not have involved other Soldiers, but ultimately had nothing to do with the Army. I think he also probably had a penchant for exaggerating his military career, as evidenced by the melodramatic "dog tags" story he gave to his girlfriend and his White Sands reference. I think these exaggerations unfortunately caused much confusion in the far-less-military-saavy public of the early '90s, and the government-conspiracy-myth gained legs.
for the most part junior enlisted soldiers do not attend the official Ranger School at Fort Benning. Things may have changed but it was that way in the early 1990s. The course is a leadership one not designed for privates or specialists (a rank that is basically a senior private). For a newby, therefore, the ranger program would entail enlisting to be an infantry private in one of the Army's three ranger battalions. One of these was and is at Fort Lewis, WA. If the person stayed in the rangers long enough and became an NCO, ie a sergeant, then he'd probably go to the school. Special Forces (the Green Berets) and the Delta Force do most of their recruiting directly from the rangers although recently the Army has a recruiting program where people can enlist directly for SF. However it was not so in the early 1990s and the modern program has many washouts because it is hard for someone wiyth no military experience. Most end up as paratroopers in the 82d Airborne Division.
Language training in Korean does not seem to mesh with an assignment as a ranger private at Fort Lewis. More likely the trainee was in a linguist or interpreter position assigned to a unit supporting the 1st Special Forces Group which was then stationed at Fort Lewis, WA. This unit's general mission was and is the Far East. The Defense Language Institute at Monterey is a highly selective and intense school. If a student there did not seem serious about the training maybe by committing crime off post, they would be kicked out. Since they now no longer would be able to be qualified for their specialty, but still had a military obligation, they would be reclassified in accordance with the needs of the service based on their qualifications from entrance aptitude tests. Everyone can qualify as an Army cook. During this same period Fort Ord closed and all its troops were moved to Fort Lewis. I think Burgwinkel probably was very dissatisfied to go from a linguist supporting the Green Berets to a cook who basically only boils water and stacks ration boxes in the field. Whatever happened next was the result of this dissatisfaction. We do not know enough to conject further but a look at his personnel records would at least give his assignments, his specialties and when he was administratively discharged for being AWOL. BTW while AWOLs are not pursued, if he ever got caught for another crime, he'd be eventually dragged back to the Army for punishment so he probably has not been caught for any crimes.
Reporting someone AWOL is pretty much the Army's version of filing a missing person report. When I was at Fort Benning years ago the body of a murdered woman soldier was found in the woodsie part of the post. She had been reported AWOL a year earlier. The relatives were outraged and claimed they told them she wouldn't go AWOL. But enough do and all the parents (except those hiding their child) say that so it got short shrift. I think that case too is still unsolved.
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Old 07-16-2015, 10:59 PM   #167
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Personally, With all due respect. I believe Burgwinkel had a severe case of Walter Middy Syndrome.
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Old 07-17-2015, 06:55 AM   #168
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Personally, With all due respect. I believe Burgwinkel had a severe case of Walter Middy Syndrome.
Mitty* :-)
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Old 07-17-2015, 11:17 AM   #169
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I'm always up for a good literary reference, so well played on that one.

That being said, I disagree. I think Burgwinkel was involved in something. I'm just not sure if it was a clandestine military operative or something entirely different that got him killed...
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Old 07-17-2015, 08:35 PM   #170
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Quote:
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Personally, With all due respect. I believe Burgwinkel had a severe case of Walter Middy Syndrome.
+1. Never a doubt in my mind.
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Old 07-17-2015, 09:12 PM   #171
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I'm always up for a good literary reference, so well played on that one.

That being said, I disagree. I think Burgwinkel was involved in something. I'm just not sure if it was a clandestine military operative or something entirely different that got him killed...
Hard to imagine it being from the Military. He was a cook. Conspiracy Theorists will have fun with that statement. I maintain he aimed high with his goals and for no fault but his own. Was brought back down to earth. As anyone old enough to understand. We all have done so. And for those who haven't. Good for you lol. I can speak with somewhat experience. All my life I wanted to be a Fighter Pilot. Entered the AF with hopes and expected to be one. That was a no go. Too young an unfocused. It took me a LOOOOONG time sorting Personnel Files (Which is what I did) to get over it. My grades were sub par. So much so that I was lucky even with college credits to get in. Even right after 9/11. Its a let down to your ego. Really tough. You wanna be going "Mach 2 with your hair on fire" (Top Gun reference haha Yeah Its Navy oh well) shooting down Migs and Sukhois. But you're in an office. Answering calls. Setting up appointments. Answering to Captains and Staff Sergeants on a Joint Base. It seems so much better in the movies. I knew more about the potential of Fighter Aircraft than pilots that were in Pre-Flight Training. Once your in. You realize Hollywood let you down lol. Anyways, I'm rambling. Ive seen it in guys who joined like that. They wanna impress. And they want it to seem so glorious. They can't impress from within. So they make it sound so cool to people NOT in the Military. Had a guy I talked to everyday who told his wife some BS story so he could leave all the time. His excuse was he was cheating on her. Its done all the time. Not to the extent that Burgwinkel (That's my opinion on Bergwinkel I could be wrong) did. I think he wanted to be important. You'd be surprised. The branches are all full of Young Walter Mitty's. Some carry it out and put it on thicker than others. Hell, I was one of them. It's especially hard when your family has a strong important military history. And it is somewhat of a burden. My dad was in AF Intel, My Grandpa as Gunnery Sarg in Korea and Vietnam. He even was a chauffeur (backup) to Ike's Wife a few times. You feel like a failure. I did. You just have to play the cards dealt to you. And not feel sorry for yourself. If I spent more time studying. And less time partying. Maybe I coulda been a fighter pilot. Instead I did a little over 3 years. And got a Discharge for Family Reasons. Not glorious at all lol. I fill out forms for jobs and you'll get a "Thanks for your service". And I always correct em. I dont deserve that. I was a member of the "Chair Force" lol. The only plus is when you wear like a dress uniform. You can get a lot of looks and potential numbers from women. The negative thing about it. If you're married its useless lol. Just my opinion. Sorry for rambling.
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Old 07-17-2015, 09:19 PM   #172
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Mitty* :-)
Thanks for correcting my goof
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Old 07-18-2015, 09:45 PM   #173
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I said it before, its strange he is not listed on the Charley Project.
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Old 07-20-2015, 01:31 PM   #174
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I said it before, its strange he is not listed on the Charley Project.

I agree. That's some odd stuff right there.
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Old 07-20-2015, 03:50 PM   #175
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I always got the sense this was a guy unhappy with his job and went crazy then had some unexplained event happen. I highly doubt it was military related.
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Old 07-20-2015, 10:33 PM   #176
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I'm sorry but I sincerely doubt he was working on some CIA related activity. He would not have referenced a hollywood movie (twice) and been so OBVIOUS in wanting everyone to think he was on a "secret mission." He couldve been involved with shady people involved in some illegal activity or whatever but the whole CIA angle he tried to get people to believe is just too obvious to me. He went AWOL and showed up at his gf's apartment. That doesn't sound like someone working for the CIA or intelligence community. Again, maybe he wanted to be somebody so he got involved with shady criminals. However, in the beginning at least his disappearance seemed voluntary. I have a feeling he killed himself, maybe out in the woods or somewhere remote. He staged the motel scene so all his belongings would be found the way he wanted.
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Old 07-20-2015, 11:51 PM   #177
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Quote:
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I'm sorry but I sincerely doubt he was working on some CIA related activity. He would not have referenced a hollywood movie (twice) and been so OBVIOUS in wanting everyone to think he was on a "secret mission." He couldve been involved with shady people involved in some illegal activity or whatever but the whole CIA angle he tried to get people to believe is just too obvious to me. He went AWOL and showed up at his gf's apartment. That doesn't sound like someone working for the CIA or intelligence community. Again, maybe he wanted to be somebody so he got involved with shady criminals. However, in the beginning at least his disappearance seemed voluntary. I have a feeling he killed himself, maybe out in the woods or somewhere remote. He staged the motel scene so all his belongings would be found the way he wanted.
I agree
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Old 07-21-2015, 06:51 AM   #178
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Quote:
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I'm sorry but I sincerely doubt he was working on some CIA related activity. He would not have referenced a hollywood movie (twice) and been so OBVIOUS in wanting everyone to think he was on a "secret mission." He couldve been involved with shady people involved in some illegal activity or whatever but the whole CIA angle he tried to get people to believe is just too obvious to me. He went AWOL and showed up at his gf's apartment. That doesn't sound like someone working for the CIA or intelligence community. Again, maybe he wanted to be somebody so he got involved with shady criminals. However, in the beginning at least his disappearance seemed voluntary. I have a feeling he killed himself, maybe out in the woods or somewhere remote. He staged the motel scene so all his belongings would be found the way he wanted.
I agree with you, but I also think him referencing "White Sands" is him telling everyone EXACTLY what happened. For those who haven't seen the movie, Willem Dafoe finds a body in the desert and decides to pretend to be him only to get caught up in the world of gun running and espionage. I think Burgwinkel did something similar only to get mixed in with the wrong crowd who killed him. This isn't Hollywood with a great ending and unfortunately, Justin found that out the hard way.
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Old 07-21-2015, 09:27 AM   #179
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Well, he wasn't involved with any intelligence agency because his behavior would be laughable at best. He might have gotten involved with drug dealers or whatever to feel he was "somebody" however the briefcase with papers he was just tearing into pieces? I just don't buy it.

He went AWOL and showed up at his girlfriends house and hung out with her for days on end. If you're involved in drugs or illegal smuggling of anything, you keep it on the down low as much as humanly possible. Also, you're associates wouldn't call your girlfriends apartment phone and say "the mission is off" that is so laughable if the story wasn't so tragic.

Also, he is not listed on the Charley Project and given his case was even featured on a National TV show that's very odd in itself.

If I recall correctly, someone claiming to be a former PD on the case said that he had another girlfriend in the area where his base was located. (if that source is the real deal.)

Anyways, I find it so odd that he isn't listed on the CP or really any missing person site. Something's up with this. I think there's something we don't know about the case. Either police classified if now as voluntarily missing (however you can still list someone on CP) or the family knows something we don't.

Again, I'm not sure and I'm not insinuating the family is "in on it". However, as with many cases on UM there is ALOT of info left out and in this case there really is no other information online. I think UM might have even played up the "CIA/Shady life" theory too (as it had played up scenarios on other cases featured). I just think were missing information on this one.
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Old 07-21-2015, 10:48 AM   #180
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Well, he wasn't involved with any intelligence agency because his behavior would be laughable at best. He might have gotten involved with drug dealers or whatever to feel he was "somebody" however the briefcase with papers he was just tearing into pieces? I just don't buy it.

He went AWOL and showed up at his girlfriends house and hung out with her for days on end. If you're involved in drugs or illegal smuggling of anything, you keep it on the down low as much as humanly possible. Also, you're associates wouldn't call your girlfriends apartment phone and say "the mission is off" that is so laughable if the story wasn't so tragic.

Also, he is not listed on the Charley Project and given his case was even featured on a National TV show that's very odd in itself.

If I recall correctly, someone claiming to be a former PD on the case said that he had another girlfriend in the area where his base was located. (if that source is the real deal.)

Anyways, I find it so odd that he isn't listed on the CP or really any missing person site. Something's up with this. I think there's something we don't know about the case. Either police classified if now as voluntarily missing (however you can still list someone on CP) or the family knows something we don't.

Again, I'm not sure and I'm not insinuating the family is "in on it". However, as with many cases on UM there is ALOT of info left out and in this case there really is no other information online. I think UM might have even played up the "CIA/Shady life" theory too (as it had played up scenarios on other cases featured). I just think were missing information on this one.
I agree with you. I believe Justin's brother as well as a few friends posted on this thread previously. Not sure if any of them mentioned something outside of what was mentioned in the broadcast but I'd love to hear fr0om them again.
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