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Old 03-10-2006, 03:56 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkDante
Well the case is still unsolved to my knowledge at least...

I was discussing this case over email with Crystaldawn last night and we came up with a few theories. First off there are I believe a lot of things said in this case either by Kurt's parents or what they were told by Kurt's friends which I believe are inaccurate or downright false.

Usually on UM when a teenager disappears (Kurt Sova, Kurt McFall, Chad Maurer) the parents do everything they can to "talk up" their deceased child. This is understandable as nobody wants to speak ill of the dead and compounded with the grief they are probably going through, well its MORE than understandable.

The problem is as I think Justin pointed out awhile back is how many parents know 100% what is going on with their kids. So the fact that Kurt's parents said he was a "good kid" doesn't mean he was not experimenting with drugs or alcohol that night.

I think the whole story about leaving him "on the fence" is just that - a story. If Kurt was that intoxicated and was left on the fence are we supposed to believe that he just wandered off while Kurt's friend "went to get his jacket" never to be seen again. The whole thing seems like a story to me - I mean, a bunch of drunk kids at a party and one kid is sober enough to realize its cold outside and that his friend might want a jacket and when he returns he's gone...It's a story plain and simple.

It is also interesting to note that from the start the people at the party paint Kurt out to be a "heavy drinker" already planting the idea in Kurt's parents minds that Kurt's death was the result of something that Kurt brought upon himself. This is also likely another story used to cover up what really happened to Kurt.

Also "the crazy from Detroit" is likely just that "a crazy from Detroit" - My gut feeling is he had nothing to do with Sova's death.

David Trusnick who was Kurt's buddy who saw him hop into a van with "Frankie" - This might be true and if so it casts serious doubt on the theory that what happened to Kurt Sova to lead up to his death occured at the party. But then again Trusnick could have been mistaken.

It is also important to note that the woman who held the part is lying even before the general public knows that Kurt is dead. When Kurt's mother asked her if there was a party at her house the previous Friday the girl denies it. There is really no reason for the denial unless something involving Sova happened at the party.

Kurt's mother already knew about the party from another source and having a wild party in itself is not a crime. There is no reason for her to lie.

My feeling is that there was something illegal going on at that party (possibly to do with drugs) - Kurt was there and had a reaction to something (my guess off hand might be PCP although thats really stretching it) and instead of taking Kurt to a hospital, the people at the party tried to nurse him back to health but were unsuccessful. After he died (several days after the party) they put him down in the ravine.

I don't think anyone at the party intended for Kurt Sova to die. I think at first they didn't want to have any drug activity tied back to them (similar along the lines if someone gets drunk at your house and then dies in a car accident on the way home, you can be sued) and later of course did not want to be responsible for Kurt's death. It's a complete and total "snowball effect".
I think this theory is right on except the crazy from Detroit. I beileve he did know what happened but his role has been downplayed as police dropped the ball by not holding him longer or getting his name and place of residence. You know they could have held him on vegrantcy at the very least. Also as for this friend of his that claims to have left him on the fence I can tell you that if a good detective would have put him under a bright light and interegated him right he would have sang like a robin and you would know exactly what happened to Kurt. Do you think this kid would stick to this story if he thought he would be charged with Kurt's murder?
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Old 03-10-2006, 04:17 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RightOnDude
I think DarkDante hit the nail on the head. This case screams "kid went to a party, tried some hard drugs, tried too much of said drug, heart stopped, party host panicked, called thug friends who dumped body." Maybe the weirdo from Detroit was at the party. Heck, he may have brought the ice or coke or smack or whatever it was from Detroit. As stated earlier, the fact that the host of the party LIED about even HAVING a party tells me that something went down there. Why else would she lie?

In any case, this segment fascinates me too. I am going to post on some Cleveland local forums and see if anyone has any more info.
Ok why would the host lie? Alright lets say I have a party and I know there are drugs and booze at this party. I also do not know everyone at the party some of these people may be underage as far as I know. Ok so I see lots of people getting wasted at my place on this particular night as said before some I dont even know. The next day an older woman comes to my door asking if I had a party. Now my first thought is she is someones mother and maybe her child came home drunk or stoned and has told her who gave him the drugs or alcohol. Ofcourse Im going to lie I have no idea if she's going to the cops or what and also being that I still have illeagal drugs in my house I dont want any trouble with the law right? Keep in mind people who use drugs become very paranoid and will lie whether its for a good reason or not
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Old 03-10-2006, 07:52 PM   #18
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This was one of the most interesting cases I've seen profiled. I too felt that something happened at the party that night. Here's my two cents:

When that lady called Kurt's mom at 3:30 in the morning to tell her she thought her son was sleeping in the basement, she did it in a panic. She probably flipped out because Kurt died down there and her roommates or some of the guys at the party said to just keep him down there until they figured out a plan. She probably figured she would just call the mom and make up the whole sleeping story and expect Kurt's mom to come over and look for her son. When Kurt's mom got there, she was going to say she had no idea she was dead and just thought he was sleeping. But when her roommates or some guys that were there found out she called, they panicked and dumped the body in the ravine. As far as the shoe goes, it's possible that they took Kurt over there and when they got there they found out that he only had one shoe on. They could have dumped the shoe or burned it or anything.

The thing about U.M. is they never give you all the story that you want to hear. For instance, they never clarified how sure that friend was that he actually saw Kurt get into the van. Maybe he was only 20% sure that who he saw really was Kurt. It would have been nice had UM clarified that one fact, because if he really was sure, then something else went on outside of the party.
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Old 03-10-2006, 08:45 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Fuji
This was one of the most interesting cases I've seen profiled. I too felt that something happened at the party that night. Here's my two cents:

When that lady called Kurt's mom at 3:30 in the morning to tell her she thought her son was sleeping in the basement, she did it in a panic. She probably flipped out because Kurt died down there and her roommates or some of the guys at the party said to just keep him down there until they figured out a plan. She probably figured she would just call the mom and make up the whole sleeping story and expect Kurt's mom to come over and look for her son. When Kurt's mom got there, she was going to say she had no idea she was dead and just thought he was sleeping. But when her roommates or some guys that were there found out she called, they panicked and dumped the body in the ravine. As far as the shoe goes, it's possible that they took Kurt over there and when they got there they found out that he only had one shoe on. They could have dumped the shoe or burned it or anything.

The thing about U.M. is they never give you all the story that you want to hear. For instance, they never clarified how sure that friend was that he actually saw Kurt get into the van. Maybe he was only 20% sure that who he saw really was Kurt. It would have been nice had UM clarified that one fact, because if he really was sure, then something else went on outside of the party.
Ok well maybe you can clear this up for me I may be off here. It was my understanding that the woman at the duplex called Kurt's father a few days after it was well known he was missing and after the dad went there and Kurt was not there he went to the area where Kurt's body was found and saw nothing. I think this case is solvable I would love to see the entire police report on all of the events and witness statements from the time he went missing till his body was found.
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Old 03-10-2006, 11:17 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kane7474
Ok well maybe you can clear this up for me I may be off here. It was my understanding that the woman at the duplex called Kurt's father a few days after it was well known he was missing and after the dad went there and Kurt was not there he went to the area where Kurt's body was found and saw nothing.
Not quite. Kurt's dad had gone looking in the ravine area earlier...not the same day his body was found.
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Old 03-11-2006, 12:49 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by nohwheregirl
Not quite. Kurt's dad had gone looking in the ravine area earlier...not the same day his body was found.
Ok so was his body found the same day that the girl called to say he may be in the basement?
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Old 03-11-2006, 01:19 AM   #22
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Kurt's dad searched the area the day before his body was found. He also searched the basement. This was after the girl volunteered the information about Kurt sleeping in the cot in her basement. Perhaps his body was being stored elsewhere and was placed where it was found later on.
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Old 03-11-2006, 01:20 AM   #23
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fascinating case, isn't it?
so many possibilities...
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Old 03-11-2006, 01:35 AM   #24
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fascinating case, i feel so sad for his mom.

here's what I think....no way the so called "crazy" from Detroit is a non-factor in this case if what he really did say those things....come on! If he really said "in two days, he'll be found dead and nobody will know how he died, he has to know something....people just don't say that! If he was just some creep he would have said "hey I know that guy he's dead" and just saying that to be a jerk even though he had no clue...but he knew something...I think he was a drug dealer...

the thing about the putting the dude on the fence and running up to get a coat is bull**** we all agree on that....what I think is that "crazy" was at the party and supplied the drugs, whatever....probably something bad laced with something even worse, KS had a bad reaction, he passed out, they thought they would have him sleep it off so they put him in the cot downstairs, but then they realized he never woke up and died....I think the friend that thought he saw KS was mistaken. Then some people from the party maybe the druggie dumped the body, maybe he had some friends come help, obviously the chick lied about the party because she knew KS was messed up...

that's my theory, of course I could be wrong....it seems to me that this was some really ****ty police work....didn't ANYBODY check the cot for signs of KS? Like some hairs or something? saliva? i know it was back in the 80's but even if a bunch of idiot kids tried to hide a murder, it's a very difficult thing to do. and like someone said if a real detective got that punk kid who claims he put KS on the fence in an interrogation room and worked his thing, that kid wold be pissing his pants and would spill the beans

anyone else think the police did a lousy job?
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Old 03-11-2006, 09:32 AM   #25
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Quote:
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fascinating case, i feel so sad for his mom.

here's what I think....no way the so called "crazy" from Detroit is a non-factor in this case if what he really did say those things....come on! If he really said "in two days, he'll be found dead and nobody will know how he died, he has to know something....people just don't say that! If he was just some creep he would have said "hey I know that guy he's dead" and just saying that to be a jerk even though he had no clue...but he knew something...I think he was a drug dealer...

the thing about the putting the dude on the fence and running up to get a coat is bull**** we all agree on that....what I think is that "crazy" was at the party and supplied the drugs, whatever....probably something bad laced with something even worse, KS had a bad reaction, he passed out, they thought they would have him sleep it off so they put him in the cot downstairs, but then they realized he never woke up and died....I think the friend that thought he saw KS was mistaken. Then some people from the party maybe the druggie dumped the body, maybe he had some friends come help, obviously the chick lied about the party because she knew KS was messed up...

that's my theory, of course I could be wrong....it seems to me that this was some really ****ty police work....didn't ANYBODY check the cot for signs of KS? Like some hairs or something? saliva? i know it was back in the 80's but even if a bunch of idiot kids tried to hide a murder, it's a very difficult thing to do. and like someone said if a real detective got that punk kid who claims he put KS on the fence in an interrogation room and worked his thing, that kid wold be pissing his pants and would spill the beans

anyone else think the police did a lousy job?
Amen I have been saying this was shabby police work all along.
First off they did question the crazy from Detroit after Kurt was misssing and based on what he had said and the fact the he had no identity they could have held him as long as they wanted. Also both the girl who had the party and the friend who left him on the fence should have been put under a bright light and interegated thouroghly. You say that you think they had some people or friends at the party dump the body Im not so sure thats true. Just think about how many people would want to volunteer to help hide a body. This would mean that people who had nothing to do with his death would take the HUGE risk of being caught with the dead body I just cant see this happening. I can see the accidental overdose theory working if it had not been for the other kid being found 3 months later with the same apparent cause of death and the same missing shoe. Something else the coroner should have detected is if Kurt was in a dehydrated state when he died or if there was food in his stomach. He should have been able to determine how long ago Kurt had eaten. This would show if he was really walking around those three days or laying in a comatos state in the basement. All in all you are right the police work here is terrible. I am trying now to obtain copies of all police reports in this case if I am succesfull we will know alot more soon.
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Old 03-11-2006, 09:45 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by synthisislab
Kurt's dad searched the area the day before his body was found. He also searched the basement. This was after the girl volunteered the information about Kurt sleeping in the cot in her basement. Perhaps his body was being stored elsewhere and was placed where it was found later on.
This is the part I just don't get. Why in the world would this girl call the dad and invite him to the house? On the show they never mentioned what the girl said happened to the guy in the basement. Did he get up and leave? Did she ask him who he was? Did he take off on foot? How long after the phone call to Kurt's dad was it that she noticed he had gone? Something is very fishy here it seems she was trying to through them off or something who knows. I can't remember from the show does anyone know how many days passed between the night of the party and the phone call to the father saying he may be in the basement??????????
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Old 03-11-2006, 11:23 AM   #27
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Don't you think that the police would have followed up on all of these leads? I mean if we can think of all of these different opinions of what might have happened, don't you think at least one of the trained professionals might have said, "Hey maybe he overdosed." I am sure that they would have checked for drugs and alcohol even back in 1981. And the police said he died 24-36 hours before the found him and they found him 5 days after the party. Now I am not saying that the girl at that had the party did not act fishy. But like someone said earlier if there was drinking and drugs at the party I am sure they would not admit to a random parent that they had a party especially before she knew that he was missing. She also called saying there was a man sleeping in the basement. She never said it was Kurt. I think it is a pretty big coincedence that another kid was found in a different ravine near by with the same MO. I mean the right shoe was missing on both of them, and they could not determine the cause of death on either. I wonder if this has not been solved if a cold case detective has thought about reopening the case. If any one can find the police records or any more info please post it. I just started Tivoing UM and this case has really interested me.
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Old 03-11-2006, 01:02 PM   #28
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Ok I have come up with somewhat of a theory here that I have not seen mentioned yet. Again without the police records this is the best I can do. Tell me what you guys think.


Kurt goes to the party and meets up with some druggies from Detroit that are not his normal crowd. He tries whatever drug they are pushing more than likely Heroin, coke or both. He develops in instant addiction to the drug and loses some of his better judgement. He leaves the party with these guys maybe to go to Detroit or wherever to get some more drugs. He continues to binge with these guys for a few days then overdoses in the back of the van he was seen in. The druggies can't seem to wake him up and he's possibly foaming at the mouth and having convulsions. Now ofcourse these paranoid drug peddlers are not going to take him to a hospital and risk having trouble with the law (Anyone seen Pulp Fiction?) So not knowing where Kurt lives they take him back to where they met him which was the duplex. They take him to the basement to hopefully recover. The girl tells them that people are looking for this guy and his mom has been at the house. The druggies split as they are again paranoid of having any association with this. She waits awhile starts to feel she sould do something then calls Kurt's dad tells him Kurt may be in the basement. She goes down to check for herself and notices he is dead. Then franticly gets ahold of someone she knows maybe one of the drug heads and says " Hey this kid you left here is dead I called his dad thinking he was just sleeping and he's on his way get this body out of here I dont need this I already lied and told them I never saw him before". The druggies beat Kurt's father to the house grabbed the body in a mad dash. They grabbed him and got him out of there so fast one of his shoes fell off. They left the show that fell off at the house and later disposed of it. While dumping his body in the ravine they noticed his other shoe was in there van. One of them hurried back to where the body was and stuck the shoe in the rocks. Ok now about the Crazy from Detroit he was involved with all of this. He is one of those idiots the other guys just let hang out with them so they will have someone to pick on. He's one of these people that feels the need to matter as his best friends treat him like crap. He says what he says to the girl at the record store just to be a factor just to maybe scare or impress her. When the others find out what he said to the girl and that he has talked to police they grab him put the fear of god in him and take him back to Detroit. They make numerous threats to Susan that if she ever talks they will kill her as they know where she lives. As for the best freind that says he left him on the fence well I think that is a lie. He said that though before Kurt was dead I think he did not want to tell the parents that Kurt had taken off with drug heads and just figured Kurt would return un harmed. When Kurt turned up dead he too may have been threatend and just stuck to his story. Based on the info we have I think this is what happened but then you have the death of Eugene Kivet another young man found near Kurt dead again with no apparent cause and missing his right shoe. If this is coincidence I can't imagine what the odds would be.
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Old 03-11-2006, 05:37 PM   #29
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Quote:
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This theory doens't fly though being that he died 4-5 days after the party
unless he didn't stop partying when the party was over...

the missing shoe could be explained by people lugging the body and disposing of it; the shoe falls off in the car or something...

I do agree with you that this girl who had the party is sketchy. She KNEW who was in her basement, that's why she didn't call the cops. I bet she was involved in some drug dealing, myself.
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Old 03-11-2006, 06:32 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kane7474
Ok I have come up with somewhat of a theory here that I have not seen mentioned yet. Again without the police records this is the best I can do. Tell me what you guys think.


Kurt goes to the party and meets up with some druggies from Detroit that are not his normal crowd. He tries whatever drug they are pushing more than likely Heroin, coke or both. He develops in instant addiction to the drug and loses some of his better judgement. He leaves the party with these guys maybe to go to Detroit or wherever to get some more drugs. He continues to binge with these guys for a few days then overdoses in the back of the van he was seen in. The druggies can't seem to wake him up and he's possibly foaming at the mouth and having convulsions. Now ofcourse these paranoid drug peddlers are not going to take him to a hospital and risk having trouble with the law (Anyone seen Pulp Fiction?) So not knowing where Kurt lives they take him back to where they met him which was the duplex. They take him to the basement to hopefully recover. The girl tells them that people are looking for this guy and his mom has been at the house. The druggies split as they are again paranoid of having any association with this. She waits awhile starts to feel she sould do something then calls Kurt's dad tells him Kurt may be in the basement. She goes down to check for herself and notices he is dead. Then franticly gets ahold of someone she knows maybe one of the drug heads and says " Hey this kid you left here is dead I called his dad thinking he was just sleeping and he's on his way get this body out of here I dont need this I already lied and told them I never saw him before". The druggies beat Kurt's father to the house grabbed the body in a mad dash. They grabbed him and got him out of there so fast one of his shoes fell off. They left the show that fell off at the house and later disposed of it. While dumping his body in the ravine they noticed his other shoe was in there van. One of them hurried back to where the body was and stuck the shoe in the rocks. Ok now about the Crazy from Detroit he was involved with all of this. He is one of those idiots the other guys just let hang out with them so they will have someone to pick on. He's one of these people that feels the need to matter as his best friends treat him like crap. He says what he says to the girl at the record store just to be a factor just to maybe scare or impress her. When the others find out what he said to the girl and that he has talked to police they grab him put the fear of god in him and take him back to Detroit. They make numerous threats to Susan that if she ever talks they will kill her as they know where she lives. As for the best freind that says he left him on the fence well I think that is a lie. He said that though before Kurt was dead I think he did not want to tell the parents that Kurt had taken off with drug heads and just figured Kurt would return un harmed. When Kurt turned up dead he too may have been threatend and just stuck to his story. Based on the info we have I think this is what happened but then you have the death of Eugene Kivet another young man found near Kurt dead again with no apparent cause and missing his right shoe. If this is coincidence I can't imagine what the odds would be.
I think this is probably right on the money. I am going to watch this episode again soon, but do you know off hand what suburb of cleveland this happened in?
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2) Where can I watch Unsolved Mysteries?

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