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Old 02-14-2011, 05:00 PM   #286
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Originally Posted by kane7474
I recently noticed something that is another telling piece of evidence that I beileve points at Mike Riemer.

In looking at a google map I noticed that Spanway is around 33 miles from where Diane and the truck where found. I also noticed that not only is Spanway on the direct route back to Pallyup ( where Riemer lived) but its only 12 miles from there. Now here's the burning question for me. Why would a serial killer drive 33 miles north to Spanway to deposit Crystal??
If you follow the map it appears whoever had Crystal followed 7 hwy and could have very easily been depositing her on the way back to Pallyup.

For anyone who thinks that a serial killer native to the area where Diane was found did this, you must ask why he would drive 33 miles north to drop off crystal. Is it just coincidence that she was left not far from home??
For that same logic to apply to Riemer, he would have to had driven the 33 mile north trip up to Spanaway to drop Crystal off (why he would do this instead of drive the additional 12 miles is beyond me), then presumably drive the extra 12 miles to his house to gather supplies, and then drive the 45 mile trip back to where Diana was killed and dump his truck. Why would Riemer do this? That would leave about about a two and a half hour window of Riemer driving around town, potentially being seen.

There's a much easier explanation in terms of a third party. Perhaps they lived farther north, or even in Spanaway.
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Old 02-15-2011, 04:16 AM   #287
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For that same logic to apply to Riemer, he would have to had driven the 33 mile north trip up to Spanaway to drop Crystal off (why he would do this instead of drive the additional 12 miles is beyond me), then presumably drive the extra 12 miles to his house to gather supplies, and then drive the 45 mile trip back to where Diana was killed and dump his truck. Why would Riemer do this? That would leave about about a two and a half hour window of Riemer driving around town, potentially being seen.

There's a much easier explanation in terms of a third party. Perhaps they lived farther north, or even in Spanaway.
Well it seems you have given the reason he may have done this in your post. Going back and gathering supplies may have been the exact reason. The only people that Riemer has to worry about seeing him are Diane's family or freinds. Everyday passer bys are not going to take any notice of him as no one knew he had been involved in a crime or was missing. As to the question as to why he would drop Crystal off instead of going the extra 12 miles home? Well to get away with murder. Why would he drive back and dump the truck? Again same answer.

I dont get how its a much easier explanation for a third party. Are you suggesting that Someone from Spanway drove thirty miles south to go wait on someone to kill in the wilderness? And then lo and behold here comes a couple who live not far from the killer? So we have the killer driving 30 miles to find someone to kill, killing both Diane and Riemer, hiding Mike's body so that it will never be found, taking the couple's child and driving her back to Spanway and leaving her in a parking lot to insure her safety.

I do think the fact that Crystal was found en route to Pullyup and so far from where her mother was found clearly shows that the killer was not local to where Diane was murdered. Again, to me this points at Riemer
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Old 02-15-2011, 04:23 AM   #288
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[QUOTE=TheCars1986]1.
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Not if this guy was a local who was a fellow hunter, hiker, nature lover, etc. In a scenic area it's almost commonplace to see strangers due to the high volume of tourists.
I cant imagine you would have a high volume of tourists in the middle of december. Same with hikers. Do you know if anything is even in season at that time of the year in Washington? If not then that would rule out hunters also.

2.
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Well it's been speculated before that someone who knew both Diana and Riemer could have been responsible. That would account for how he knew where they would be, and also why Crystal was spared.
Its been speculated but makes no sense because how then do you explain the blatant connection with Ruth Cooper? If someone simply had a personal beef against Mike and or Diane then did that same person kill Cooper and Hawkins just out of pure coincidence? The killer obviously wanted people to know he killed both by tying matching tube socks around the womens necks



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Perhaps he did. There are several unsolved homicides in the Washington state area, there's simply no way to knowing if a third party continued killing and if so what killings can be attributed to them.
Alot of bodies where turning up around Lewis county at the time Diane was found, however a good number of the murder cases where solved
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Old 02-15-2011, 11:03 AM   #289
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Well it seems you have given the reason he may have done this in your post. Going back and gathering supplies may have been the exact reason. The only people that Riemer has to worry about seeing him are Diane's family or freinds. Everyday passer bys are not going to take any notice of him as no one knew he had been involved in a crime or was missing. As to the question as to why he would drop Crystal off instead of going the extra 12 miles home? Well to get away with murder. Why would he drive back and dump the truck? Again same answer.
He had his neighbors to worry about seeing him, or simply anyone who saw him in his truck alone on that day. He could have easily taken Crystal to his home, or somewhere closer where she would have been identified possibly sooner. Riemer also could have simply left his truck at his residence and fled. There was no point in driving it back to the woods. Was this his attempt to throw off authorities? Wouldn't leaving it as his residence accomplish the same thing? Both he, Diana, and Crystal would be considered "missing", and Diana's body may not have ever been found if he didn't dump the truck out in the wilderness.

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Originally Posted by kane7474
I dont get how its a much easier explanation for a third party. Are you suggesting that Someone from Spanway drove thirty miles south to go wait on someone to kill in the wilderness? And then lo and behold here comes a couple who live not far from the killer? So we have the killer driving 30 miles to find someone to kill, killing both Diane and Riemer, hiding Mike's body so that it will never be found, taking the couple's child and driving her back to Spanway and leaving her in a parking lot to insure her safety.
Not necessarily Spanaway, but possibly somewhere close by. And if Riemer is guilty, we are suggesting that someone from Puyallup drove 45 miles south to kill his girlfriend (who took him back) in the wilderness (looking for a Christmas tree, mind you) while his child was there to witness it all. What seems more farfetched? Like I've said before, this guy may have been someone in the area (maybe he worked close by to the logging road where Diana was found), who just happened on Riemer and Diana. How many countless times are there on UM where someone is in the wrong place at the wrong time? We simply have no way of knowing why (if a serial killer other than Riemer is responsible) this person was out in the woods that day.


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Originally Posted by kane7474
I do think the fact that Crystal was found en route to Pullyup and so far from where her mother was found clearly shows that the killer was not local to where Diane was murdered. Again, to me this points at Riemer
Diana was found near a national forest. That alone would make the location a "hub" for people from several neighboring towns to come visit. Obviously Riemer and Diana were 40 plus miles away and they drove there in search of a tree, and that's where Riemer set his traps. It's not that odd that someone from Spanaway or another close town would drive the distance to go to the woods.

On a side note, I just thought about another possibility. Let's assume this was the work of a third party serial killer for a second. Everyone talks about the volume of bodies being dumped in that area at the time, so what if this guy was disposing of a body when he was spotted by Riemer and/or Diana and he decided to kill them as well?
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Old 02-15-2011, 01:56 PM   #290
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He had his neighbors to worry about seeing him, or simply anyone who saw him in his truck alone on that day. He could have easily taken Crystal to his home, or somewhere closer where she would have been identified possibly sooner. Riemer also could have simply left his truck at his residence and fled. There was no point in driving it back to the woods. Was this his attempt to throw off authorities? Wouldn't leaving it as his residence accomplish the same thing? Both he, Diana, and Crystal would be considered "missing", and Diana's body may not have ever been found if he didn't dump the truck out in the wilderness.



Not necessarily Spanaway, but possibly somewhere close by. And if Riemer is guilty, we are suggesting that someone from Puyallup drove 45 miles south to kill his girlfriend (who took him back) in the wilderness (looking for a Christmas tree, mind you) while his child was there to witness it all. What seems more farfetched? Like I've said before, this guy may have been someone in the area (maybe he worked close by to the logging road where Diana was found), who just happened on Riemer and Diana. How many countless times are there on UM where someone is in the wrong place at the wrong time? We simply have no way of knowing why (if a serial killer other than Riemer is responsible) this person was out in the woods that day.




Diana was found near a national forest. That alone would make the location a "hub" for people from several neighboring towns to come visit. Obviously Riemer and Diana were 40 plus miles away and they drove there in search of a tree, and that's where Riemer set his traps. It's not that odd that someone from Spanaway or another close town would drive the distance to go to the woods.

On a side note, I just thought about another possibility. Let's assume this was the work of a third party serial killer for a second. Everyone talks about the volume of bodies being dumped in that area at the time, so what if this guy was disposing of a body when he was spotted by Riemer and/or Diana and he decided to kill them as well?
The theory of them witnessing someone disposing of a body is very plausible. Its does seem to tie up some loose ends as far as the third party killer idea goes. Like I said before though alot of the bodies that turned up were accounted for. I know the motive was robbery on one and I cant remember all the others right now. There was one other unsolved murder where an 18 year old girls body was found not far from where Diane was found. Her car had broken down and she was last seen walking in the area.
No effort was made to conceal her body just like Diane. So even with this theory we still have the questions of why did the killer take care to get crystal out unharmed and why so much effort to hide Mike?
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Old 02-15-2011, 03:40 PM   #291
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He had his neighbors to worry about seeing him, or simply anyone who saw him in his truck alone on that day. He could have easily taken Crystal to his home, or somewhere closer where she would have been identified possibly sooner. Riemer also could have simply left his truck at his residence and fled. There was no point in driving it back to the woods. Was this his attempt to throw off authorities? Wouldn't leaving it as his residence accomplish the same thing? Both he, Diana, and Crystal would be considered "missing", and Diana's body may not have ever been found if he didn't dump the truck out in the wilderness.
Actually that only holds water if Riemer's neighbors knew him personally. If they didn't, his comings and goings may not have attracted any attention. Also, since it was months after Riemer disappeared that they were likely questioned, they may have forgotten crucial events of that time. Especially since it was around Christmas.





Quote:
Not necessarily Spanaway, but possibly somewhere close by. And if Riemer is guilty, we are suggesting that someone from Puyallup drove 45 miles south to kill his girlfriend (who took him back) in the wilderness (looking for a Christmas tree, mind you) while his child was there to witness it all. What seems more farfetched? Like I've said before, this guy may have been someone in the area (maybe he worked close by to the logging road where Diana was found), who just happened on Riemer and Diana. How many countless times are there on UM where someone is in the wrong place at the wrong time? We simply have no way of knowing why (if a serial killer other than Riemer is responsible) this person was out in the woods that day.
Riemer was a violent person. Killing his girlfriend that he recently reconciled w/ doesn't seem to be too far of a stretch given the statistics showing that abusive men kill their partners in greater percentages than non-abusive ones.

It makes little sense for a non-Riemer killer to have hidden Riemer's body and Diana's. Why do I say that? He apparently had already killed both of them and not been discovered while (or shortly after) doing so.Moving two bodies would increase the risk killer would be caught in the act (unless that was part of his/her MO) and would have required a great deal of effort.

If the killer wasn't Riemer, why not simply put Diana, Riemer and Crystal in the back of the camper shell and leave the area? It would have been days before anybody would come looking for them and most killers are frankly, lazy, meaning that anything more than a minimal effort is something they won't do.



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Diana was found near a national forest. That alone would make the location a "hub" for people from several neighboring towns to come visit. Obviously Riemer and Diana were 40 plus miles away and they drove there in search of a tree, and that's where Riemer set his traps. It's not that odd that someone from Spanaway or another close town would drive the distance to go to the woods.

On a side note, I just thought about another possibility. Let's assume this was the work of a third party serial killer for a second. Everyone talks about the volume of bodies being dumped in that area at the time, so what if this guy was disposing of a body when he was spotted by Riemer and/or Diana and he decided to kill them as well?
Most nationals forests out West aren't actually hubs as the land usually created to national forest was done so as the terrain made logging and mining prohibitively expensive and difficult. If it's difficult to log or mine there, it's usually exceptionally difficult to traverse. Most people go for easier hikes.

Also Diana's body and Riemer's truck were both there for several months before being discovered. That tells me that it's very likely that no one had traveled within sight distance of both (within a 1/2 mile) for that time period.
It had snowed during this period and an abandoned truck covered w/ snow would have attracted the attention of hunters/loggers/rangers in the area if they had seen it.

If the 3rd party killer was dumping a body...where's THAT body? Since he would now have THREE bodies to take care of (and a small child) why wouldn't he have: 1) Panicked and fled 2) Left all of them at the original site and cleaned up any evidence that he/she was there 3) Loaded all of the bodies in the truck and left them all where Diana was found 4) Dug a large hole and deposited all four bodies (after killing Crystal) in it?

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Old 02-15-2011, 04:36 PM   #292
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No effort was made to conceal her body just like Diane. So even with this theory we still have the questions of why did the killer take care to get crystal out unharmed and why so much effort to hide Mike?
I can't say why a serial killer would spare Crystal, but we really don't know how much "effort" was put into hiding Riemer, if his body was even hidden at all. Are you familiar with the Debi Whitlock murder from the 90's? She was the housewife murdered in her Modesto home. Everyone assumed her husband (who was out with his mistress the night she was killed) was responsible for the sole fact that their three year old daughter (who was also in the house when Debi was killed) was spared. But it turns out her husband was innocent and had nothing to do with it. The point being, how illogical is it to presume that if a serial killer's MO involves killing adult victims, he would spare children?

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Originally Posted by cocytus
Actually that only holds water if Riemer's neighbors knew him personally. If they didn't, his comings and goings may not have attracted any attention. Also, since it was months after Riemer disappeared that they were likely questioned, they may have forgotten crucial events of that time. Especially since it was around Christmas.
How do you know it was months after that they were questioned? Authorities knew they were missing the day after their trip for the Christmas tree. Riemer's father reported them missing the next day. It seems logical that the first people police would interview would be family members first, then neighbors. Keep in mind that Crystal was also thought to be missing as well, which would seem to intensify the public's need to help remember details which would lead to locating them.
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Old 02-16-2011, 04:15 AM   #293
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[QUOTE=TheCars1986]
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I can't say why a serial killer would spare Crystal, but we really don't know how much "effort" was put into hiding Riemer, if his body was even hidden at all. Are you familiar with the Debi Whitlock murder from the 90's? She was the housewife murdered in her Modesto home. Everyone assumed her husband (who was out with his mistress the night she was killed) was responsible for the sole fact that their three year old daughter (who was also in the house when Debi was killed) was spared. But it turns out her husband was innocent and had nothing to do with it. The point being, how illogical is it to presume that if a serial killer's MO involves killing adult victims, he would spare children?
I have heard of killers murdering people and then leaving the children alive. However I don't think I can recall any cases where a person was murdered and their child was driven 33 miles away from the scene and left unharmed. Thats the part that gets me. He took a real chance dropping her off at that store.

Quote:
How do you know it was months after that they were questioned? Authorities knew they were missing the day after their trip for the Christmas tree. Riemer's father reported them missing the next day. It seems logical that the first people police would interview would be family members first, then neighbors. Keep in mind that Crystal was also thought to be missing as well, which would seem to intensify the public's need to help remember details which would lead to locating them.
We have no way to know if police talked to the neighbors or when they did this. I know that if the Police came to my door right now and asked if I saw my next door neighbor last saturday I honestly could not give them an answer. Do you know when you last saw your neighbor?? Its just not something you burn into your memory.
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Old 02-16-2011, 10:48 AM   #294
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I can't say why a serial killer would spare Crystal, but we really don't know how much "effort" was put into hiding Riemer, if his body was even hidden at all. Are you familiar with the Debi Whitlock murder from the 90's? She was the housewife murdered in her Modesto home. Everyone assumed her husband (who was out with his mistress the night she was killed) was responsible for the sole fact that their three year old daughter (who was also in the house when Debi was killed) was spared. But it turns out her husband was innocent and had nothing to do with it. The point being, how illogical is it to presume that if a serial killer's MO involves killing adult victims, he would spare children?
The killer is the Whitlock case didn't kill the child because the child didn't wake up during his crime. Had the child awoken, he probably would have had to kill her ,as well. This is far different than killing two adults in a rural area and then making the extraordinary effort to take the child to a store more than 30 miles away, risking discovery.



Quote:
How do you know it was months after that they were questioned? Authorities knew they were missing the day after their trip for the Christmas tree. Riemer's father reported them missing the next day. It seems logical that the first people police would interview would be family members first, then neighbors. Keep in mind that Crystal was also thought to be missing as well, which would seem to intensify the public's need to help remember details which would lead to locating them.
It was missing person's case, which has a far lower priority than a murder. Given that most departments (especially in the 1980's or earlier) would expend limited amounts of time and manpower on a missing person's case (as few missing person's cases were seen as being potential murders (which, in part is the reason that there are so many Unsolved Mysteries) that many have since that time were revealed as being, it's doubtful that the police questioned Riemer's neighbors.

In fact, until they (LE) found Diana's body, it could have been reasonably assumed that Riemer and her abandoned Crystal and left on their own. While that seems illogical to most, given that most police department are overwhelmed and see many cases where that is the case, it's probable that they could have seen things in this manner.
Until they found the body.

And again, if Riemer's neighbors didn't know him, unless he really stood out (or they were particularly nosy) there would no reason for them to have noticed his arrivals and departures. And as it was shown this was during the Christmas holidays. Somebody that they barely know disappearing isn't going to be high most people's list of priorities.
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Old 02-16-2011, 05:40 PM   #295
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However I don't think I can recall any cases where a person was murdered and their child was driven 33 miles away from the scene and left unharmed. Thats the part that gets me. He took a real chance dropping her off at that store.
Can we at least agree, that Riemer or not, whoever dropped Crystal off took a real chance driving almost 40 miles away from where Diana was found?

Quote:
Originally Posted by kane7474
We have no way to know if police talked to the neighbors or when they did this. I know that if the Police came to my door right now and asked if I saw my next door neighbor last saturday I honestly could not give them an answer. Do you know when you last saw your neighbor?? Its just not something you burn into your memory.
Based off the UM re-enactment, it appeared that Riemer and Diana lived in some type of apartment building, or condo. Due to the high volume of people coming and going from these places, I don't see how it would be so hard for someone to remember either seeing Riemer's truck, or possibly even Riemer himself. While I may not be able to recall seeing my neighbor, I certainly think I would be able to say the last time I saw his/her vehicle near their residence.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cocytus
It was missing person's case, which has a far lower priority than a murder. Given that most departments (especially in the 1980's or earlier) would expend limited amounts of time and manpower on a missing person's case (as few missing person's cases were seen as being potential murders (which, in part is the reason that there are so many Unsolved Mysteries) that many have since that time were revealed as being, it's doubtful that the police questioned Riemer's neighbors.

In fact, until they (LE) found Diana's body, it could have been reasonably assumed that Riemer and her abandoned Crystal and left on their own. While that seems illogical to most, given that most police department are overwhelmed and see many cases where that is the case, it's probable that they could have seen things in this manner.
Until they found the body.
Three people, including a small child, were missing. Initially, LE may have presumed it was nothing more than a family on an extended holiday, but after Crystal was located and asked where her mother was, I think there were several red flags going up in the minds of investigators. As soon as Crystal was identified and said, "Mommy's in the trees", the case took a huge turn from just another routine missing persons case. Riemer and Diana went missing on a Thursday. According to UM, "A massive search was launched the same weekend the couple disappeared." Obviously there was a priority in locating them. And kane7474 brought up a good point about Riemer's father being a game warden and having connections with the local law enforcement officials. It seems reasonable that they would be doing everything in their power to help him in his search for Riemer and Diana.
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Old 02-17-2011, 04:21 AM   #296
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[QUOTE=TheCars1986]
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Can we at least agree, that Riemer or not, whoever dropped Crystal off took a real chance driving almost 40 miles away from where Diana was found?
Absolutley we can agree on that. Ive been saying all along that whoever dropped her off took a chance of being seen or having her tell someone who left her. Why would a serial killer with no ties to this child whatsoever take that chance? Her father just may because he wants to see to it she is safe but at the same time must flee.

Quote:
Based off the UM re-enactment, it appeared that Riemer and Diana lived in some type of apartment building, or condo. Due to the high volume of people coming and going from these places, I don't see how it would be so hard for someone to remember either seeing Riemer's truck, or possibly even Riemer himself. While I may not be able to recall seeing my neighbor, I certainly think I would be able to say the last time I saw his/her vehicle near their residence.
Its just hard to imagine anyone being able to say they saw there neighboor on such and such day at such and such time. Now if something happened like a fight or a gun battle then sure they might recall. I just don't think its the least bit odd that Riemer could have went home and grabbed a few things without anyone noticing him.

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Three people, including a small child, were missing. Initially, LE may have presumed it was nothing more than a family on an extended holiday, but after Crystal was located and asked where her mother was, I think there were several red flags going up in the minds of investigators. As soon as Crystal was identified and said, "Mommy's in the trees", the case took a huge turn from just another routine missing persons case. Riemer and Diana went missing on a Thursday. According to UM, "A massive search was launched the same weekend the couple disappeared." Obviously there was a priority in locating them. And kane7474 brought up a good point about Riemer's father being a game warden and having connections with the local law enforcement officials. It seems reasonable that they would be doing everything in their power to help him in his search for Riemer and Diana.
Well Crystal was identified three days later. The cops where so on top of this one that they never made the connection between Crystal and the missing couple. Diane's mother saw Crystal on televison and thats how she was identified. So I wouldn't put a whole lot into the idea that LE was all over this one right off the bat. I mean a couple with a child is reported missing, the same day an abandoned child turns up 12 miles from that couple's home (same county mind you) and they didnt connect the dots there. Knowing that, Im not convinced they ran right out and started interviewing the neighboors as to when they last saw Mike.
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Old 02-17-2011, 10:13 AM   #297
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This whole discussion could come to an end if someone could explain how Riemer could have gotten out of the area undetected. If he had an accomplice, don't you think this person (or maybe even Riemer himself) would have possibly talked, or even bragged to somebody about getting away with murder by now? Riemer "living off the land" as the UM segment suggested would be relatively hard to do, considering there was a snowstorm that occurred shortly after their disappearances. So it's safe to rule that one out. IMHO all signs point to him being dead. And if he killed himself, his body most likely would have turned up by now.
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Old 02-17-2011, 01:42 PM   #298
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Originally Posted by TheCars1986
This whole discussion could come to an end if someone could explain how Riemer could have gotten out of the area undetected. If he had an accomplice, don't you think this person (or maybe even Riemer himself) would have possibly talked, or even bragged to somebody about getting away with murder by now? Riemer "living off the land" as the UM segment suggested would be relatively hard to do, considering there was a snowstorm that occurred shortly after their disappearances. So it's safe to rule that one out. IMHO all signs point to him being dead. And if he killed himself, his body most likely would have turned up by now.
Well Im sure we could come up with some ideas on how he could have gotten out. A few right off the top of my head....
He could have driven Crystal up to Spanway in the truck then brought it back and left the truck with Diane next to it in a more secluded area so she wouldn't be found immediatley. Then possibly caught a bus out of town or even stolen a car.

He also could have had help from a friend or family member. This to me is the most likely. He could have called someone from a pay phone and told them what happened, then they agreed to help him get out. There is no reason for this person to have ever talked. Its not like the police are putting people under bright lights and demanding answers about Mike Riemer. He is listed as missing and no one is looking for him so why would the person that helped him ever come forward and implicate themselves as accesroies?? If it was his father who helped him he could have very well steered the searches away from where he knew the truck was. Also consider his father was in his 70s when this happened and probably didnt live long after the UM episode aired.
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Old 02-18-2011, 12:03 PM   #299
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A couple of interesting items I stumbled upon. First, the question was raised earlier in this thread whether Mike Riemer was the actual father of Crystal. Well in reading through to articles on this case I noticed that Crystal's last name is always given as Robertson. So it could be that she was not his biological father. Or it could be that Diane just gave Crystal her last name because her and Mike had such a bad relationship and she didnt figure Mike would be much of a father.

Also in reading through the articles about the bodies being found in Lewis county I came across this.
[I]Austin is looking for a break, too, in the slaying of Ernest Smith, 69, a retired minister who was killed April 4 in his mobile home in Mineral. The victim's vehicle was found in Puyallup.[/I]
This minister is killed in Mineral which is right around where Diane's body was found. Then his vehicle is found 40 plus miles north in Puyallup. Could these cases be related? It seems in both instances we have a killer murdering someone and then heading back north. We know this happened with Diane because of where Crystal was found. Now we have this man's vehilce found right in Riemer's hometown. Im not sure that this points away or towards Riemer's guilt but I do think that it may show that possibly the same person was involved in both.
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Old 02-18-2011, 01:27 PM   #300
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Also in reading through the articles about the bodies being found in Lewis county I came across this.
[I]Austin is looking for a break, too, in the slaying of Ernest Smith, 69, a retired minister who was killed April 4 in his mobile home in Mineral. The victim's vehicle was found in Puyallup.[/I]
This minister is killed in Mineral which is right around where Diane's body was found. Then his vehicle is found 40 plus miles north in Puyallup. Could these cases be related? It seems in both instances we have a killer murdering someone and then heading back north. We know this happened with Diane because of where Crystal was found. Now we have this man's vehilce found right in Riemer's hometown. Im not sure that this points away or towards Riemer's guilt but I do think that it may show that possibly the same person was involved in both.
I wish we knew what year Ernest Smith was killed. If it was in 85, and if there could be a possible connection made to Diana, then I think that would shift the focus away from Riemer as being responsible.
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