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Old 12-29-2010, 02:56 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by TheCars1986
If we are to assume that Riemer is guilty, still alive and on the run we have to consider a few things. He abandoned his daughter, when he had a very easy opportunity to take her with him. While this would seem to implicate him more if both he and Crystal were missing, he still would be in a precarious situation to take Crystal with him (in his truck) 30 miles away and drop her off in a crowded shopping center. Not to mention he had no guarantee that Crystal would keep quiet about her own father abandoning her. So let's say he did have ample time to get a head start on authorities and started a new life (possibly in Canada somewhere). And let's say he's lucky enough to live in an area where few people watch UM, so no one really knows about the story about Diana or the double homicide. He eventually would have accumulated friends, and established some sort of social life (he played guitar, was an outdoorsman, etc.). And let's also assume that he did beat Diana on a regular basis (even though the only actual account we have of this is one newspaper article that states that he rubbed her face in the carpet). In creating a new life, Riemer most likely would have dated, possibly even married. And based off his personality the odds that he would beat this woman would be very high, so would the odds that he would have run into trouble with some law enforcement agency over the years. And this would have most likely lead to the discovery that he really was Riemer, a POI in the Diana Robertson killing. All of this is hypothetical, but if we are to believe that Riemer is guilty and still alive, we have to also believe that he stopped murdering people (something a serial killer usually keeps doing until they get caught or die) and completely changed his personality. He's dead IMHO, guilty or innocent.



I agree.

The restraining order is blown out of proportion, IMO. She withdrew it a couple of days after filing it, something a woman in fear for her life would not do.
You are doing an awfully lot of speculating and assuming here. You really think that you can sumise that he would re-marry then beat his new wife and then get arrested? And because apparntley this didnt happen then we are to assume he was killed the same time as Diane?
You ask if he stopped killing? Well maybe he didnt. Is there any shortage of unsolved homicides out there?? I think not.

Who's to say he wasnt picked up somewhere else and the police had no clue that he was missing? There was no nationwide APB for him and if he was succesfull in creating a new identity ( which was fairly simple in 1985) then even if he was arrested they would have no clue as to his real identity. Once you start speculating and assuming there is just no end to it.
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Old 12-29-2010, 09:23 AM   #92
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What we do have is evidence to piece together and try to fill in the blanks which is what Im doing by posting the indisputable facts we have from the segment.
Again, only a handful of those are facts. The others may certainly be reasonably disputed.

Quote:
The mother and sisters statements are not hearsay by the way. Hearsay refers to statements made in a court of law that are inadmissable. The statement she makes can be considered evidence and I will gaurantee what she has said is in a police report. It is a fact that the mother and sister stated there was abuse and a threat to kill. Whether you choose to see them as credible is up to you.
Hearsay is also a colloquialism, and that is the context in which I use it--not as a legal term. I honestly have no idea if those comments could be considered admissible evidence in any given trial, and frankly, that isn't the issue. It's two people, very close to the victim, who are making statements that cannot be readily substantiated by any of us. So I cannot accept that as "cold, hard fact".

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I never said anything about what the rationale was behind Crystal being left at the store but isnt it obvious that whoever killed her mother didnt want to kill her but instead got her to a place shed be found? That is not speculation it is fact.
That would be your own, personally developed rationale.

And no, it is not necessarily fact.



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I think there is plenty of evidence he killed Diana and have listed what we know to be true. It seems everyone here that thinks Mike was a victim is simply using the fact that he never turned up alive to come to that conclusion.
I think the "evidence" in this case is ambigous at best. It could just as easily indicate Diana was murdered by Mike as it could Mike was a victim himself.
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Old 12-29-2010, 12:54 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by MegtheEgg86
Again, only a handful of those are facts. The others may certainly be reasonably disputed.



Hearsay is also a colloquialism, and that is the context in which I use it--not as a legal term. I honestly have no idea if those comments could be considered admissible evidence in any given trial, and frankly, that isn't the issue. It's two people, very close to the victim, who are making statements that cannot be readily substantiated by any of us. So I cannot accept that as "cold, hard fact".



That would be your own, personally developed rationale.

And no, it is not necessarily fact.





I think the "evidence" in this case is ambigous at best. It could just as easily indicate Diana was murdered by Mike as it could Mike was a victim himself.
I am saying that it is a fact that they said it. Ok. That is a fact whether their statements are true is up for debate. But it is a fact you heard them say it right. Statements like this are used as evidence in investigations. Their statements are backed up by the fact that a restraining order was put on Mike. That is also a fact.

It is a fact that the child was feft at a dept store. It is a fact that at some point she was with her parents that day. It is a fact that her mother was killed and her father went missing the same day she showed up alone at the store. There IS THAT SPECULATION OR IS THAT FACT?????????????

You claim what Im saying is disputable but unless you change my words around I have yet to see you dispute anything. I guess we can speculate that the entire story is a great work of fiction and UM made it all up with paid actors too.
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Old 12-29-2010, 01:01 PM   #94
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I am saying that it is a fact that they said it. Ok. That is a fact whether their statements are true is up for debate. But it is a fact you heard them say it right. Statements like this are used as evidence in investigations. Their statements are backed up by the fact that a restraining order was put on Mike. That is also a fact.

It is a fact that the child was feft at a dept store. It is a fact that at some point she was with her parents that day. It is a fact that her mother was killed and her father went missing the same day she showed up alone at the store. There IS THAT SPECULATION OR IS THAT FACT?????????????

You claim what Im saying is disputable but unless you change my words around I have yet to see you dispute anything. I guess we can speculate that the entire story is a great work of fiction and UM made it all up with paid actors too.
Apparently this is touching a nerve somewhere. My conclusion is simple: I find nothing definitive in this case, and all angles are equally viable. Again:

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I think the "evidence" in this case is ambigous at best. It could just as easily indicate Diana was murdered by Mike as it could Mike was a victim himself.
That's it.
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Old 12-29-2010, 01:58 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by kane7474
You are doing an awfully lot of speculating and assuming here. You really think that you can sumise that he would re-marry then beat his new wife and then get arrested? And because apparntley this didnt happen then we are to assume he was killed the same time as Diane?
You ask if he stopped killing? Well maybe he didnt. Is there any shortage of unsolved homicides out there?? I think not.
And you're not speculating by saying Riemer is off in the wilderness somewhere playing Swiss Family Roofer? I can't say for certain that he would remarry and beat his wife. BUT based off of what Diana's family members have said, which you consider factual, Riemer beating Diana was a regular occurrence. And if he did start a new life, he probably would have at the very least dated women. And if he did by chance beat them up as well, he could have had a brush with law enforcement leading up to his capture. Riemer had to have had brushes with law enforcement in Washington, especially if what Diana's family says is true, so his fingerprints would most likely be on file. And by getting arrested in his "new life", they should have been able to determine that he was really Riemer. It is wild speculation, and I think the scenario I presented is absurd. But that is what you would have to believe if you think Riemer is guilty and alive. The whole point of my "speculation" was to show how unlikely it was that Riemer was alive.

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Who's to say he wasnt picked up somewhere else and the police had no clue that he was missing? There was no nationwide APB for him and if he was succesfull in creating a new identity ( which was fairly simple in 1985) then even if he was arrested they would have no clue as to his real identity. Once you start speculating and assuming there is just no end to it.
As I've stated above, if the beatings on Diana were true, that would speak volumes about the character of Riemer. So isn't it safe to assume that in the 36 years of his life he had at least one brush with the law? And if he did they would have his fingerprints on file, and his new identity would be shattered if he were ever arrested again.

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I can honestly say I never had a restraining order on me. So I dont know how common it is. I also dont remember them ever saying she withdrew the order but only that they had gotten back together. Why withdraw it?? Com'n man get real you know that women can be abused and take back there abuser if they are weak minded enough. Happens all the time and you know it. Yoiu want the mother to go to the police because of what Diane told her?? Seriously? What would the cops even do? It isnt hearsay unless its introduced in court and Im not sure why you through the word " speculation" in there.
I didn't say getting a restraining order is like ordering a McRib, but people file them all the time. Yes, women who are abused become emotionally weak and they do take back their abusers all the time. But someone you were in fear of, who threatened to kill you? The mother didn't have to go to the police, I'm not sure if there even was a law against verbal threats in Washington at the time. But she could have encouraged Diana to leave Riemer (which I'm sure she did), or confront Riemer herself, or even move Diana in with her and forbid Riemer from the residence. If your daughters life were really in danger you would do everything in your power to protect her. The mother outright accuses Riemer of murdering Diana on television, how is that not speculation? And I was wrong about the withdrawn restraining order. But her family obviously knew Diana forgave Riemer and started seeing him again, so they had the perfect opportunity to get the authorities involved at that point. The restraining order was still active, and if the family feared for her safety they would have called the police. I think the point MegtheEgg and I are trying to make is that with the lack of evidence in this case, anything is possible. But based off of what we do have, I think it's more likely that Riemer is a murder victim, and if he is responsible he's still dead.
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Old 12-29-2010, 02:56 PM   #96
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And you're not speculating by saying Riemer is off in the wilderness somewhere playing Swiss Family Roofer? I can't say for certain that he would remarry and beat his wife. BUT based off of what Diana's family members have said, which you consider factual, Riemer beating Diana was a regular occurrence. And if he did start a new life, he probably would have at the very least dated women. And if he did by chance beat them up as well, he could have had a brush with law enforcement leading up to his capture. Riemer had to have had brushes with law enforcement in Washington, especially if what Diana's family says is true, so his fingerprints would most likely be on file. And by getting arrested in his "new life", they should have been able to determine that he was really Riemer. It is wild speculation, and I think the scenario I presented is absurd. But that is what you would have to believe if you think Riemer is guilty and alive. The whole point of my "speculation" was to show how unlikely it was that Riemer was alive.



As I've stated above, if the beatings on Diana were true, that would speak volumes about the character of Riemer. So isn't it safe to assume that in the 36 years of his life he had at least one brush with the law? And if he did they would have his fingerprints on file, and his new identity would be shattered if he were ever arrested again.



I didn't say getting a restraining order is like ordering a McRib, but people file them all the time. Yes, women who are abused become emotionally weak and they do take back their abusers all the time. But someone you were in fear of, who threatened to kill you? The mother didn't have to go to the police, I'm not sure if there even was a law against verbal threats in Washington at the time. But she could have encouraged Diana to leave Riemer (which I'm sure she did), or confront Riemer herself, or even move Diana in with her and forbid Riemer from the residence. If your daughters life were really in danger you would do everything in your power to protect her. The mother outright accuses Riemer of murdering Diana on television, how is that not speculation? And I was wrong about the withdrawn restraining order. But her family obviously knew Diana forgave Riemer and started seeing him again, so they had the perfect opportunity to get the authorities involved at that point. The restraining order was still active, and if the family feared for her safety they would have called the police. I think the point MegtheEgg and I are trying to make is that with the lack of evidence in this case, anything is possible. But based off of what we do have, I think it's more likely that Riemer is a murder victim, and if he is responsible he's still dead.
When did I ever say or speculate that Mike was living in the wilderness like swiss family Robinson?? Never. I actually speculated that one person could have helped him get out of the area. I am fairly sure that he is not living off the land in the same forest where Diane was killed if indeed he is still alive.

Fingerprints on file? Would he have been caught if picked up again? Sure if his fingerprints where in some national database. But since the FBI never listed Mike as a wanted fugitive I question as to whether his fingerprints would turn anything up. This was 1985 by the way. At that time you could get a speeding ticket in one state, never pay it and as long as you didnt go back to that state nothing would happen.

Now they can access points on your license because of a national system. What if Mike went to Canada? Again not listed as a fugitive in the states so why would he set off alarms?? Do you really beileve that if Mike had been picked up 500 miles away from some petty crime and fingerprinted that his prints would have been put into a computer system and all of a suddent to computer would light up like a christmas tree and say "he's Mike Riemer the missing man from Washington"? Maybe if he had been wanted by the FBI but even then the local LE agency would have to have a reason to doubt he was who he said he was and run a nationwide check on the prints rather then just tuck them away in a file somewhere.

I guess you can assume whatever you want as to why Diane took him back after the restraining order. I guess you know her personally and can make the call that she truly was not abused or at any time in any fear for her life from Mike. There are no shortage of cases where women take back an abusive male and are later killed. All Im saying is that there is a documented history of violence between the two and I beileve that should be added to the blocks of evidence. We dont know what was going on between them. All we have is the statements by the mother and sister as well as the protection order.

You are basing your opinion that he was a murder victim on the fact that he was never caught. Thats pretty much it. I have tried to explain why (if) he ran and got away he was never caught but I dont think you are following. Once again, No one outside of Pierce County LE was even looking into this case. The UM episode was three years after the killing and they couldnt provide a decent picture of him. Its very possible he moved on and started a new life. It is also possible that he was killed and his body never found though in my opinion less likely based on what I have seen so far.

If there had been a nationwide manhunt for Mike and the FBI as well as Canadian LE was actively pursuing him for years then I would concede that it would be very tough for him to hide out. Again though there are plenty of people being pursued by the FBI or Federal Marshalls that are never caught so why is it so unthinkable that someone who is not being pursued by them could vanish??????????
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Old 12-29-2010, 03:21 PM   #97
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Apparently this is touching a nerve somewhere. My conclusion is simple: I find nothing definitive in this case, and all angles are equally viable. Again:



That's it.
I honestly don't think the evidence is equally viable and here's why

I will keep it short and simple.

If all parties involved where the victim of a serial killer then how do we explain Mike's body never being found?? This killer who left his calling card with the tube sock made no effort to conceal any of his victims except Mike? I think that tips the scales a little.

The change in MO of the killer. He shoots his first victims then with Diane he stabs 17 times. I realize this is not definative but again to me adds weight.

The blood in the truck, How did we get human blood in the passenger seat of the vehicle?? Did the killer stab her through the window?? Or was he in the truck with her?? If he stabbed her through the window then what was Mike doing?? To me the blood in the truck says that the altercation started there. We know Mike was in the truck with her so again I think that adds weight.

Mike's coat being left. If Mike was checking traps or looking to get a tree would he not be wearing his coat? Just like his dad said, it was the middle of December and he would have been wearing it. So I speculate that either he was pulled out of the truck at gunpoint or he left it there to make it look like he wasnt involved. Again its anyone's guess why the coat was left.

Crystal being left at the store. I know this is speculation on my part but it just seems that someone cared enough about the welfare of this child to see to it she made it to safety. I would think Mike would care more for his daughter then a serial killer that just stabbed Diane 17 times. Again thats just my logic and its anyones guess.

Mike never being found. It could be that his body was well concealed and was never discovered unlike the others. However just consider that if he did run that there never was any nationwide manhunt for Mike and he was never wanted by the FBI. He is still considered missing.
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Old 12-29-2010, 03:43 PM   #98
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If all parties involved where the victim of a serial killer then how do we explain Mike's body never being found??
I brought up an additional theory a few days ago that Mike and Diana may have been killed by someone they knew or were acquainted with. I'm not at all sold on the theory that Mike and Diana were victims of a serial killer.

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Originally Posted by kane7474
I know this is speculation on my part but it just seems that someone cared enough about the welfare of this child to see to it she made it to safety. I would think Mike would care more for his daughter then a serial killer that just stabbed Diane 17 times. Again thats just my logic and its anyones guess.
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I never said anything about what the rationale was behind Crystal being left at the store but isnt it obvious that whoever killed her mother didnt want to kill her but instead got her to a place shed be found? That is not speculation it is fact.
That's funny.
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Old 12-29-2010, 03:49 PM   #99
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I brought up an additional theory a few days ago that Mike and Diana may have been killed by someone they knew or were acquainted with. I'm not at all sold on the theory that Mike and Diana were victims of a serial killer.





That's funny.
I was meaning that it is a fact that crystal was found at the store. You seemed to call that speculation.
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Old 12-29-2010, 03:53 PM   #100
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I was meaning that it is a fact that crystal was found at the store. You seemed to call that speculation.
I think it is quite obvious that the reason why Crystal was left at the store is what can be speculated on, not the fact that she was discovered at the K-Mart.
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Old 12-29-2010, 04:03 PM   #101
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I honestly don't think the evidence is equally viable and here's why

I will keep it short and simple.

If all parties involved where the victim of a serial killer then how do we explain Mike's body never being found?? This killer who left his calling card with the tube sock made no effort to conceal any of his victims except Mike? I think that tips the scales a little.

The change in MO of the killer. He shoots his first victims then with Diane he stabs 17 times. I realize this is not definative but again to me adds weight.

The blood in the truck, How did we get human blood in the passenger seat of the vehicle?? Did the killer stab her through the window?? Or was he in the truck with her?? If he stabbed her through the window then what was Mike doing?? To me the blood in the truck says that the altercation started there. We know Mike was in the truck with her so again I think that adds weight.

Mike's coat being left. If Mike was checking traps or looking to get a tree would he not be wearing his coat? Just like his dad said, it was the middle of December and he would have been wearing it. So I speculate that either he was pulled out of the truck at gunpoint or he left it there to make it look like he wasnt involved. Again its anyone's guess why the coat was left.

Crystal being left at the store. I know this is speculation on my part but it just seems that someone cared enough about the welfare of this child to see to it she made it to safety. I would think Mike would care more for his daughter then a serial killer that just stabbed Diane 17 times. Again thats just my logic and its anyones guess.

Mike never being found. It could be that his body was well concealed and was never discovered unlike the others. However just consider that if he did run that there never was any nationwide manhunt for Mike and he was never wanted by the FBI. He is still considered missing.
If an altercation occurred in the truck, why was there no blood/evidence found on Crystal's person? And where was she while Riemer was viciously stabbing Diana? I used to kind of scoff at the idea of Mike being taken away from the scene at gunpoint, but now I'm starting to change my mind. Another possibility I've thought of was what if Riemer (possibly with Crystal) came upon the killer shortly after he murdered Diana and this killer shot at Riemer and wounded him. It would explain the shell casings at the scene, and if Riemer was mortally wounded it could also account for why his remains where never found. Maybe he stumbled around in the woods and eventually died from blood loss? We don't know where Riemer is, so we really can't speculate that if there was a 3rd party responsible, that he hid Riemer's body. He could have left it out in the open and it was just never found, maybe parts of his remains were carried away by animals or the elements. And in the Harkins/Cooper murders it seems like the killer forced Cooper more than a mile into the woods where he then killed her. It's possible that the same thing was done with Riemer.

As for someone helping him out of the area, I ask one simple question: why? What would there be to gain? Knowingly aiding a murderer flee the scene of a crime, and then never coming forward after all these years? And if someone did help him (possibly a family member of his), then we know that this person knowingly abandoned a child at a shopping center. Why would one of Riemer's family members assist in this? Wouldn't the well-being of the child be their number one priority? And whoever dropped Crystal off at the store was obviously NOT concerned about her well-being. Why not drop her off close to a relatives home? What if another sicko happened by the store and abducted her? Or what if no one bothered to phone authorities and she wandered off somewhere dying from exposure? Abandoning her at the store thirty miles away shows little concern for her well-being IMHO.
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Old 12-29-2010, 04:03 PM   #102
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I think it is quite obvious that the reason why Crystal was left at the store is what can be speculated on, not the fact that she was discovered at the K-Mart.
Ok well I thought that was obvious too.
So what brings you to the conclusion of the third party that they knew may have killed them?
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Old 12-29-2010, 04:07 PM   #103
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If an altercation occurred in the truck, why was there no blood/evidence found on Crystal's person? And where was she while Riemer was viciously stabbing Diana? I used to kind of scoff at the idea of Mike being taken away from the scene at gunpoint, but now I'm starting to change my mind. Another possibility I've thought of was what if Riemer (possibly with Crystal) came upon the killer shortly after he murdered Diana and this killer shot at Riemer and wounded him. It would explain the shell casings at the scene, and if Riemer was mortally wounded it could also account for why his remains where never found. Maybe he stumbled around in the woods and eventually died from blood loss? We don't know where Riemer is, so we really can't speculate that if there was a 3rd party responsible, that he hid Riemer's body. He could have left it out in the open and it was just never found, maybe parts of his remains were carried away by animals or the elements. And in the Harkins/Cooper murders it seems like the killer forced Cooper more than a mile into the woods where he then killed her. It's possible that the same thing was done with Riemer.

As for someone helping him out of the area, I ask one simple question: why? What would there be to gain? Knowingly aiding a murderer flee the scene of a crime, and then never coming forward after all these years? And if someone did help him (possibly a family member of his), then we know that this person knowingly abandoned a child at a shopping center. Why would one of Riemer's family members assist in this? Wouldn't the well-being of the child be their number one priority? And whoever dropped Crystal off at the store was obviously NOT concerned about her well-being. Why not drop her off close to a relatives home? What if another sicko happened by the store and abducted her? Or what if no one bothered to phone authorities and she wandered off somewhere dying from exposure? Abandoning her at the store thirty miles away shows little concern for her well-being IMHO.
Its is possible he was brought out of the truck at gunpoint. I really cant imagine another scenerio as to why hed be gone from the truck with no coat unless ofcourse he left it on purpose to through off police

As for leaving the child? Mike could have left her before he even contacted anyone for help. Or someone in his family could have sat in the parking lot watching her until she was taken inside. Anything is possible. Why would anyone help?? I dont know exactly why but it happens all the time doesnt it?? People have deep connections to their children and in some cases will stand by them no matter what.
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Old 12-29-2010, 04:10 PM   #104
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Originally Posted by kane7474
Ok well I thought that was obvious too.
So what brings you to the conclusion of the third party that they knew may have killed them?
I don't absolutely conclude that's what happened. I do see it as a possibility.


Quote:
Originally Posted by MegtheEgg86
I believe I may have mentioned this before, but I think it may be possible that Mike and Diana were killed by a party they knew.

1. A party intimately acquainted with Mike and Diana stood a good chance of knowing where Mike's traps were set and how isolated they were. Perhaps he/she/they had even accompanied Mike trap-checking on occasion.

2. If Mike purportedly had a hot temper with Diana, he may have turned his wrath on others as well. Perhaps this didn't set well with someone he knew, and the individual(s) reckoned with him when he/she/they knew he would be isolated and unmissed for at least several hours.

3. Crystal didn't necessarily have to witness her mother's murder or body in the woodline in order for her to say what she did. It is entirely possible she was taken from the scene of the crime before any of the violence ever transpired. Perhaps I am speculating widely, but the theory of a female accomplice (perhaps even an individual familiar to Crystal) taking the little girl for "a trip" or "a drive" or something along those lines while another individual commits the crimes is not at all a stretch to me. Perhaps after a while Crystal asked about her mother's whereabouts, and this is precisely what she was told: "Mommy is in the trees; there's nothing to worry about."
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Old 12-29-2010, 05:00 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by kane7474
Its is possible he was brought out of the truck at gunpoint. I really cant imagine another scenerio as to why hed be gone from the truck with no coat unless ofcourse he left it on purpose to through off police

As for leaving the child? Mike could have left her before he even contacted anyone for help. Or someone in his family could have sat in the parking lot watching her until she was taken inside. Anything is possible. Why would anyone help?? I dont know exactly why but it happens all the time doesnt it?? People have deep connections to their children and in some cases will stand by them no matter what.
So this family member would be watching her be carted away by police and then would let her be placed in foster care for three days? Why not call after one day? If Riemer did have an accomplice, this person helped emotionally destroy a two year old child by abandoning her and then letting her be whisked away to a strange, foster home environment. And again, what motive would anyone (besides whoever murdered Diana) have to do this?
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