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Old 04-14-2009, 05:56 PM   #76
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Whether there were any "signs of molestation" on Gary is irrelevant, IMO.99 times out of 100, fondling doesn't leave any physical evidence.
If that's true, than essentially any murder of anyone could be a sex crime. Cindy James murder could be a sex crime. Eric Tamiyasu's death could be a sex crime as well. Heck the Zodiac Killer's crimes could all be sex crimes.

if all that happened to Gary sexually was fondling. This killer could easily have walked away.

If your in the business of killing a kid, you might as well get your money's worth and molest the child and fufill all your fantasies. Why do some half-hearted fondling. I mean unless your the kids father or uncle, you don;t have to hide anything.
As to your first point, that is exactly right. Ask anyone in law enforcement, and they will tell you that not all sex crimes have physical evidence of a sexual assault. And if you think that kids aren't killed after being "half-heartedly fondled" (whatever that means) by a stranger who abducted him, then you are in massive denial. It absolutely happens. It could be that Gary threatened to tell; it could be that he started crying or screaming and the perp was afraid of being heard. This stuff happens frequently. And to dismiss such a scenario in favor of a completely unsupported and extremely unlikely scenario that makes Gary Grant, Sr. into a dirty cop, in bed with the mafia, or covering up their involvement in his child's brutal murder because he's afraid for his own life, is extremely far-fetched. And whether we are a court of law or not, in my opinion, throwing out such wild, baseless allegations against a named person is wrong. (And, as a lawyer, I'd just warn that even something you post on an internet forum can subject you to a defamation lawsuit.)
They wouldn;t throw it out if you had a witness to the activity.

I'm not trying to convict someone in court. I'm trying to find Person(s) of Interest and a line of investigation to follow. That's the difference between being a lawyer and an investigator. An investigator tries to follow all potential leads until they come up dry or he finds one that holds up to evidence or scrutiny that can allow him to arrest someone. Lawyers try to disprove or prove a case based upon evidence and the law.

I would first check Gary Grant's jacket to see if there was anything strange in it. i would then check internal affairs and FBI to see if there are any corruption cases in that police department and if Gary Grant sr.s name or any officers in his unit come up in a file. I would then ask around the department and see if any bad info on Gary. Then ultimately interrogate Gary about his career.

if nothing comes up, then we

I also seriously doubt if the case had police corruption in it that it would ever see the light of a court date. The officers would be dismissed and the case file would be burned in some superiors waste basket



What I am ultimately suggesting is that someone should look into Gary Grant Sr's record as a cop and find out if there is anything to suggest he was not on the up and up or that there was a complaint made against him. Or if there was dispute with another officer.

If there is a record or a story of Gary Grant severly beating up a civilian two years before the murder. That person or his family or peers very well could be POIs. The incident may not even be in his record, but may be remembered by a cop that was on patrol with him.

Would you not agree that this would be a reasonable line of investigation?

If not, where do you want to go? If Gary was killed by a random psycopath, it'll be virtually impossible to catch him. Unless

1. The killer talks to someone or confesses
2. he kills again and we can connect this case to another
3. He killed before and we can connect.

But so far nothing.

If we are going to follow the evidence as you say, then there is no evidence that Gary jr. was molested. So all we have is a murdered child outside of the home. The only reason to believe that the child was killed by a random stranger is that it is a default theory based on lack of other evidence.

We have the child of a police officer found murdered with no evidence of sexual molestation found dead away from home.

If he was not killed by a random psychopath who just wanted to kill a kid, he most likely was killed by someone who knew his father was a police officer. It was either

1. Someone who wanted to kill a cop's son for jollies and prove he could kill a cop's son
2. Or someone who killed Gary for retribution against his father or the police department.

To investigate the later, Gary Sr's record and police jacket HAVE to be examined. It has to be put into question. I personally believe that there hasn;t been a deep enough investigation into Gary Sr's history as a cop.
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Old 04-14-2009, 06:27 PM   #77
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To investigate the later, Gary Sr's record and police jacket HAVE to be examined. It has to be put into question. I personally believe that there hasn;t been a deep enough investigation into Gary Sr's history as a cop.
And what do you base that on? Do you have some inside information on what investigation was done into his history as a cop?

At any rate, I think we've both vigorously, but respectfully, stated our points of view on this, and we're probably getting off-topic, since this is the "Who did you believe and not believe?" thread, and not the Gary Grant thread. I'm happy to continue the discussion with you via PM if you want to keep debating. Maybe we can come up with something.
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Old 04-14-2009, 06:59 PM   #78
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It looked to me like the writing on the cop car was done with a marker, but the UM site says it was "painted" on. This happened a full two years after the boy's murder.

As far as the posters here making allegations, suppositions, and throwing out maybe's, could be's, and might of's, against the players in the UM segments.... If our babblings on the internet message boards are held to the standards of being libelous, slandering a person's good name, or falsely accusing the innocent, we're all in deep shyt.

Who haven't we flayed alive on this site? Marvin Maple has been declared guilty and banished to hell by half the posters here. Patsy Wright's (alleged) arsonist ex husband has been all but publicly convicted by a few of us. Sheriff Wampler has been declared either guilty of murder or accessory to murder in the Eric Tamyasu case, as was Don Dixon. Then we have Chad Noe and his whole clan who have been condemned to the gallows/electric chair/needle so many times I can't count them all. And don't forget the wacky Wackers, who have been accused of everything from doing the crimes to themselves, old man Wacker attacking his wife, to even one of their kids trying to get an early inheritance.

Those are just a few, and none of them have been convicted of any of the crimes that we've "tried" them for and "convicted" them of. Not to mention, openly stating which form of punishment we believe they deserve for their "crimes".

If it gets as serious as persuing legal action against us, we can be tracked through our ISPs if we are posting from home, and be easily identified. Once the first person gets convicted for posting that they think Joe Schmoe is as "guilty as homemade sin", that's it. I'm unplugging from the net and going back to playing solitaire.
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Old 04-15-2009, 03:54 PM   #79
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And what do you base that on? Do you have some inside information on what investigation was done into his history as a cop?
we could both easily ask the Atlantic City Police about the investigation and find out if there was an investigation into Gary Grant's background or if Gary Grant has received complaints or reprimands . Who knows what they would give us, but you never know. Your a lawyer, you probably have more pull with a police department than I would.

One other reason why I think police corruption might be a strong possibility is the fact that Boo Mason(sp?) was so quickly railroaded into a confession.

It seemed a lot like the cops were looking for a very quick way to end the case, based on no evidence on Boo. That interregation was either handled poorly or those detectives were told to bring a quick close to the investigation. Boo seems a perfect target in my opinion. Retarded boy takes the rap, he goes to a mental home or nothing at all. Gary is happy knowing that his son;s killer is found. Gary doesn;t blame Boo because of his mental incapacity, no need to investigate anybody else.

a nice, quick, clean case.
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Old 04-15-2009, 04:03 PM   #80
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Those are just a few, and none of them have been convicted of any of the crimes that we've "tried" them for and "convicted" them of. Not to mention, openly stating which form of punishment we believe they deserve for their "crimes".

If it gets as serious as persuing legal action against us, we can be tracked through our ISPs if we are posting from home, and be easily identified. Once the first person gets convicted for posting that they think Joe Schmoe is as "guilty as homemade sin", that's it. I'm unplugging from the net and going back to playing solitaire.
Heck Paul Pollis, could rack up lawsuits against the whole board!

That could keep him in cleaning materials for years.

i know we all like to play detective on this board, but I have not lost the site that everything on this board is speculation and theory tossing. Regardless of anyone';s background, were all pretty much playing detective, were not real sleuths.

This board is pure fun and joy for people who share mutual joy of Unsolved Mysteries

I seriously doubt any of us will actually personally solve any of these cases.

Personally yuppielawyer if your looking to solve cases for real, Websleuths.com might be a better choice, if your not already on them.
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Old 04-15-2009, 06:08 PM   #81
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Holy crap! I forgot about paul pollis. lol I think he'd have a case against at least 80% of the posters on this board.

And you're right... I bet he's greedy. He wouldn't want us put in jail. He'd want us to pay punitive damages so he could afford to stay stocked up on those cleaning supplies.
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Old 04-17-2009, 09:48 AM   #82
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You can't be sued for expressing your opinion, however bad it is.
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Old 09-26-2010, 12:31 AM   #83
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Mike Morris struck me as being a flat out liar. He called Mary's cellphone and it range for four minutes straight? Yeah right. It didn't help that he would look away during his interview.

Donovan Jacobs also didn't have any credibility in my mind. He sounded unsure of himself during his interview. It was as if he was trying to figure out what lie to spew against Doyle Wheeler.

I'm glad someone mentioned Chip Richard. He and Leonard Rizzo should win awards for barely giving any eye contact during their interviews.
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Old 09-26-2010, 05:23 AM   #84
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I have a couple, not sure if they've already been discussed.

1. The Husband (Ex Husband?) of the Woman who's Skull was "placed" in the Garden of the Mexican Restaurant.

2. That dimwit Mexican Cop / Law Enforcement official (Whatever he was) in the story of the Young Man who was struck down by a Car while running across the Freeway on the US / Mexican Border. Their whole Police department screams of corruption and I didn't believe one word that came out of his mouth during the interview.

3. Honourable Mention - Anyone who uses a word like "Circlestantial Evidence" when declaring their so called innocence during an update.

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Old 09-26-2010, 02:57 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by Corkys-Place
I have a couple, not sure if they've already been discussed.

1. The Husband (Ex Husband?) of the Woman who's Skull was "placed" in the Garden of the Mexican Restaurant.

2. That dimwit Mexican Cop / Law Enforcement official (Whatever he was) in the story of the Young Man who was struck down by a Car while running across the Freeway on the US / Mexican Border. Their whole Police department screams of corruption and I didn't believe one word that came out of his mouth during the interview.

3. Honourable Mention - Anyone who uses a word like "Circlestantial Evidence" when declaring their so called innocence during an update.

1 was Don Sherman who has been discussed. I didn't believe Ed Carter in the prostitute killings but from the same case I believed Tammy Paplar.

I also didn't believe Darley Routier. I think she had an accomplice but staged it herself to look like a victim.
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Old 09-27-2010, 04:34 AM   #86
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2. That dimwit Mexican Cop / Law Enforcement official (Whatever he was) in the story of the Young Man who was struck down by a Car while running across the Freeway on the US / Mexican Border. Their whole Police department screams of corruption and I didn't believe one word that came out of his mouth during the interview.

Patrick Kelly. That poor kid. Every time I see that LE official from Mexico during that segment I get so angry. He must have thought UM viewers and Patrick's family were idiots. I can't believe he suggested that someone using Patrick's ATM card after he was already in a coma doesn't suggest foul play.
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Old 09-27-2010, 09:10 AM   #87
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Patrick Kelly. That poor kid. Every time I see that LE official from Mexico during that segment I get so angry. He must have thought UM viewers and Patrick's family were idiots. I can't believe he suggested that someone using Patrick's ATM card after he was already in a coma doesn't suggest foul play.

Patrick Kelly and Andre Jones are two of my favourite underrated UM cases that aren't discussed much around here and I feel so bad for their parents who've both had police corruption stand in the way of them learning the truth about their sons' deaths.

I get just as angry watching the medical examiner in the Jones segment give such a half-assed explanation about how Andre could have possibly committed suicide by hanging himself eight feet off the ground with his shoelaces . That liar also must set some sort of record for blinking during an UM interview.
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Old 10-02-2010, 12:15 AM   #88
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Here's a fairly long list of people, some already mentioned and some not, split up into three parts (people I definitely believe, people I definitely don't believe, and people I'm not sure about, along with explanation as to why I think what I do).

Definitely believe:

Alfredo Newball - There just didn't seem to be much that pointed to him being involved, and the other theories presented did not seem at all far-fetched.

Glen Consagra - I haven't seen this case that many times, but there doesn't seem to be a lot of truly damning evidence against him, and at least I thought he seemed pretty sincere in his interview.

John Branion - I've always been pretty staunch about this one. About 90% of the evidence and testimony presented in the segment strongly argues against him being the killer, and I think that a lot of people who probably don't really know what happened probably had it in for him just because he was a doctor for members of the Black Panthers. You have to remember that racially-motivated hatred was through the roof at the time.

Stuart Heaton - I know I'm swimming against the tide on this one, but I just didn't get a killer vibe off of him, I think his claim that someone in his profession would regularly end up cutting themselves is a perfectly legitimate one, it didn't seem to be made clear why some of the people against him seemed to not like him, I thought that his mother seemed sincere, and I thought that both the victim's stepmother and the prosecuting attorney seemed a little too sure of themselves despite several circumstances that might cast reasonable doubt.

Johnny Lee Wilson - The circumstances here are saddening but unfortunately all-too common. Basically a classic case of "respected pillar of the community is murdered. Police having difficulty finding a good suspect, so they figure, let's say that this retarded guy did it. He'll be too damn scared of us to fight it, and maybe we can even trick him into actually believing that he did it."

Michael Self - Out of all the inmates I've seen on the show who claim innocence, he's definitely among the top 5 most believable.

Jeff Oberholtzer - I never understood why this guy was ever considered a suspect in the first place, and I can't say that I was in any way surprised when the no-solve update was shown stating that he was no longer a suspect.

The Dowalibys -They just seemed like genuinely nice people, and some of the evidence used to initially convict David Dowaliby was weak at best to purely laughable at worst (especially the "large nose" incident). Plus, I didn't like that prosecuting attorney or police chief or whoever that guy at the end was. He seemed unwilling to accept the fact that he might be wrong.

Colleen Ritter - As one person said before, why in the world was her name even brought up in this forum in the first place?

The Tallmans - I know ghost stories can be hard to believe, but in most ways, they seemed like a pretty normal family. Though, to the credit of someone who was less forgiving of them, a ghost story does seem like one of the least likely type of segments where people would want to keep their faces hidden.

Curtis Heck - I believe that Curtis may have been indirectly responsible for Kenneth Ingy's death, however I don't believe that he had any murderous intentions, I believe he probably felt bad about having knocked Kenneth unconscious, and I think it's probably likely that he was the one who turned off the truck's engine in a possible attempt to keep him from dying.

Michael Martin - He may not be perfect, but he's one of the first people to admit that about himself, and as I often say, just because you broke the law once doesn't mean you did it again, and I think that the evidence pointing to innocence in this case is much stronger than that which might indicate otherwise, and the victim, Doyle, is, at least in my opinion, one of the most hateful and dislikeable people ever on the show.

Paul Freshour - I know that it's impossible to read people's minds unless you're a psychic, but I personally think that after having seen and heard this guy in his interview, it's really hard not to believe him.

Rob Shafer - This guy just seemed really genuine to me, and out of all the "boyfriends possibly suspected of killing their girlfriends" that I've ever seen on the show, there wasn't a single thing about him or his story that seemed the least bit odd or pretentious.

Frederick Young - Another guy who seems very sincere, even with his past legal troubles, and I thought quite the opposite about his brother. His brother's emotions on the talk show seemed wooden and pretentious, and even the accomplice (who would likely have nothing to gain since he got a 20 year sentence) insists that Frederick Young is innocent.

Larry Race - Another guy who admits he's made some mistakes, but seems sincere in his insistence that he's not guilty of murder, and has support from both sides of his family, and the prosecutor in this case is another one of those major hard-heads that I just can't bring myself to like.

Darlie Routier - I know this is one of the more controversial cases, with strong argument on both sides, but it seems to me that she would have had to do an awful lot (as well as know an awful lot about crime scene investigation) to stage such an incident herself (and her husband is not a suspect in the case). And a question that was posed in the segment that keeps coming up for me over and over again is why, if she was after life insurance money, didn't she kill her husband, who was worth hundreds of thousands of dollars more than the kids? And the hair that was determined to belong to a Rowlett police officer; I'm wondering how she would ever come into possession of that in the first place?

Wayne Hecker - I know I'm probably one of his few supporters, but at least from viewing the segment, the case against him doesn't seem that strong, and I think that his cocky attitude is probably out of some anger and annoyance about having the finger pointed him.
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People I definitely DO NOT believe:

Chad Noe - The guy really makes me want to smash the TV when I see him on it. He practically confesses and then has the nerve to say, "not me. I wouldn't ever do something like that." I think his mother was also involved. To be honest, however, I've always kind of been on the fence about his grandmother. I'm not saying she's absolutely innocent, but if she was dropped off at home prior to Wendy, Cynthia and Lisa Renee being kicked out at the Wal-Mart, it kind of seems unclear as to what, if any part, she might have had in the disappearance.

Stephen Marfeo - In all honesty, the first bunch of times I saw this segment, I was actually leaning more towards him not being guilty, but then when I first saw the text update from 1999, it pretty much changed my opinion of him right away.

Mark Nichols - Another scumbag who practically confesses to something during the interview and then tries to make light of it. I wonder if they ever did do any digging at the town dump. Might not be a bad place to look.

Tommy Zeigler - I know this guy has some supporters, but I honestly think his account of what happened is so pathetic that I actually surprised that he's still alive at this point.

Larry Gibson - At first, I was leaning the other way, but with repeated viewings of this segment, I began to realize just how utterly emotionless he was. However, one thing that I still believe in strongly in this case is that the actual death was not pre-meditated and most likely not even intentional.

Sam Patel - Creep with a capital C. Much of his behavior is disturbing, and he seems almost taunting about giving up the shirt. "If they just ask reeeeeeel nice, I be sooooo glad to hand it over.

Franklin Floyd - Without question, one of the most sick and twisted people ever to appear on the show, and the question of what happened to Michael Hughes is honestly not even the most disturbing aspect of the case in my opinion. To me, I think discovering the origins of his so-called daughter/wife would be even scarier.

Paul Pollis - Not only a liar, but not a very good one, either. I just like a clean house - WTF? By the way, I did read something a few years ago that I found kind of disturbing. It might not change the fact that he's most likely guilty, but I was still shocked. Apparently, Charlotte Nagi (Charlotte Pollis's mother, interviewed in the segment) was arrested a few years ago for abducting the Pollis children.

Judy Groezinger - Seen buying the murder weapon. Fingerprints found at the scene. "Comes out" not long after. Definitely doesn't point to somebody being innocent.

Leonard Rizzo - Like someone said before, if everything that this guy has going against him (and might I add, beating up another woman he started seeing) isn't enough to get him put away forever, then what the hell is?

Joe Wampler - How a sherriff can do what he did and then have the guts to appear on the segment smiling and acting all casual is very beyond me.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
People I'm honestly not sure about:

Jule Caylor - Without question, this is one weird dude that you probably wouldn't want to be friends with, but, at least from viewing the segment, it also doesn't seem like there's a whole lot of hard evidence that actually points to him being the killer, either.

Bob Hall - In all probability, based on the facts presented in the segment, he probably had something to do with his wife's death, but he seemed nice in his interview, and he often spoke positively of his wife. To me, it seemed like they were a couple who had their share of problems, but seemed to have their share of good times as well.

Sarah Powell - I don't think that this girl had any evil intentions, nor am I absolutely discounting the possibility that what she said happened actually happened, but there's just something a bit odd about the whole thing that makes me wonder what exactly is at the center of it all.

Curtis Croft - I believe that he probably knew more than he was telling, but I also have no reason to believe that he was in any way involved in the attack itself.

Christie Mutzfeld - This is one where I think the truth lies somewhere between what she's saying and what Todd Kelley's parents are saying. I don't think that she was in on any plot to kill him, nor do I believe that she was a willing participant in any part of it, and if she did have any after-involvement, I'm guessing that she was probably intimidated into it by her other boyfriend.

Etta Smith - This was the woman whose psychic vision literally led her right to a dead body, and who went to jail for a short time because of it. She seems like a quiet, unassuming woman who probably wouldn't be mixed up in anything like that, but it's still eerie thinking about what exactly led her to finding that body.

Christina O'Donnell - Mother of abducted Lauren Jackson. There were two witnesses, one who's sure that she saw Lauren being abducted by a stranger, another just as sure that she saw Christina giving Lauren away. There has been some speculation over the years that these witnesses may have been mistaken about who the little girl was that they saw, but something about Christina herself seemed to strike me in an unusual and not necessarily good way.

Robert Webster - Marilyn "Niqui" McCown's fiancee. There didn't seem to be any truly damning evidence against him, but some of his behavior following the disappearance did seem unusual, and if nothing else, it was revealed that he's known to have a bit of a temper.
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Old 10-02-2010, 12:42 AM   #89
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I think Sarah Powell is believable. It's just a really strange case...
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Old 10-02-2010, 01:48 AM   #90
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I have to disagree about Michael Martin, McBeavis. He seemed to me to be a downright, flat-out liar. I could understand Doyle's attitude after all he had been through and actually really liked him and found him sincere. I definitely agree with your "do not believe" list, except for Ziegler, who I'm still pretty on the fence about.

And I absolutely agree about Colleen Ritter. She's one of my favorite interviewees. I found her to be incredibly strong and inspiring and believed her 100%. I've heard some people mention they didn't find her to be "upset" enough, but some people are able to handle their emotions very well. I found her to be quite impacted by all that had happened, yet she was strong enough to handle the interview.
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