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Old 12-07-2010, 11:53 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by TracyLynnS
I think Sue Billig spoke to several bikers asking about what they knew regarding Amy's disappearance. These are the names I've run across so far. I'm on page 117 out of 352 of the Aunapu/Billig book:

Pagan, Paul Branch, former Hells Angel, part time Outlaw (I think this is the guy she had the most contact with)

Pagan, Satan (I think she spoke with him very briefly)

Pagan, Dennis Kenny aka Pampano Red

President of the Outlaws, Big Jim Nolan

Outlaw, Sid Fast

Outlaw, Greek



And do you guys remember the two former Miami narcotics agents who initiated a meeting with Sue Billig at a Denny's, told her that they'd chase leads all over the world looking for Amy, would call her every day, no matter where they were located at the time to update her on the case, then took $1,500 in cash from her, stuck her with the bill for dinner, and NEVER searched for Amy or even placed a call to the Billigs pretending to search!? Hard to believe that hardcore bikers were actually more helpful in some ways than these former cops, who just outright scammed the Billigs for cash.
That isn't too surprising. It was the 70s, a lot of cops were very corrupt then.
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Old 12-08-2010, 10:35 AM   #62
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I know they were comparing Amy's dental records to a lot of Jane Does that they were finding, but one thing that bothered Amy's mother badly was that as soon as Amy went missing, she begged the police to fingerprint her room so they could ID her fairly quickly if she were found dead or alive, but the police kept putting it off.

They finally came to the house a few months later (maybe 3 months) and couldn't lift a usable print from Amy's room. They told Sue Billig that it was because so many months had elapsed since Amy had touched anything in the room and the FL humidity degrades fingerprints very quickly.

The only definite info they were able to give on Amy's prints was that they tended to be oval shaped.

theres one jane doe that i came across on florida's database but its only of a skull and there is no other information they have on it. It is around the time amy dissapeared, and of same age and race. If there is any skeletel remains the likely hood of us finding a complete skeletal is slim if in fact she was thrown in with the aligators or around that area. I believe either my theory of the cult or the possibility we will only find a skull or partial remain of Amy. People start looking for this. I already combed through the website and nothing is a match to her resemblence and description of clothing. The other place we need to check is all the unidentified people in the tips Sue received. Quite possibly she was killed at a later date and i looked through the florida and doe network and found nothing on a likeliness and have extended my time outwards as to death. I think her remains can be that of what i mentioned on skull fragment i found or in another state..
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Old 12-08-2010, 03:19 PM   #63
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I just finished reading "Without A Trace", the book co-written by Amy's mother.

I can't get over that guy Henry Blair, who made threatening and obscene phone calls to Sue Billig for two decades. The testemony he gave at his trial was just sickening. He basically said that he tormented the victim because she wanted it! Yes, he used "the victim wanted it" defense!

And he was successful.

He had 3 counts against him and his case was one of the first to test the state's new stalking laws. The jury found him guilty of the two lesser charges. They couldn't agree on the third charge. Somehow or other, Sue Billig agreed for him to be sentenced to probation on that one in order to avoid a mistrial. He ended up serving around two years total, but if he'd been fully convicted, could have gotten around 15 years.

She was not allowed to listen to Blair's testimony, and when she finally heard that he'd used the "victim wanted it" defense, she sued him in civil court and won a financial judgement against him.

In the criminal trial, I got the feeling that his lawyers were using the old defense of throwing everything at the jury and hoping at least one thing would stick, causing reasonable doubt, or whatever the standard was.

They claimed he had too much stress at work, he suffered from alcoholic illness, he suffered from various mental disorders, and on and on... of course any and all of them causing him to not have any self control, making him unable to resist the urge to repeatedly call Sue Billig and taunt her with evil stories of her daughter's suffering and gloat about her husband's recent death.

What a coward.
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Old 12-08-2010, 03:36 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by TracyLynnS
I just finished reading "Without A Trace", the book co-written by Amy's mother.

I can't get over that guy Henry Blair, who made threatening and obscene phone calls to Sue Billig for two decades. The testemony he gave at his trial was just sickening. He basically said that he tormented the victim because she wanted it! Yes, he used "the victim wanted it" defense!

And he was successful.

He had 3 counts against him and his case was one of the first to test the state's new stalking laws. The jury found him guilty of the two lesser charges. They couldn't agree on the third charge. Somehow or other, Sue Billig agreed for him to be sentenced to probation on that one in order to avoid a mistrial. He ended up serving around two years total, but if he'd been fully convicted, could have gotten around 15 years.

She was not allowed to listen to Blair's testimony, and when she finally heard that he'd used the "victim wanted it" defense, she sued him in civil court and won a financial judgement against him.

In the criminal trial, I got the feeling that his lawyers were using the old defense of throwing everything at the jury and hoping at least one thing would stick, causing reasonable doubt, or whatever the standard was.

They claimed he had too much stress at work, he suffered from alcoholic illness, he suffered from various mental disorders, and on and on... of course any and all of them causing him to not have any self control, making him unable to resist the urge to repeatedly call Sue Billig and taunt her with evil stories of her daughter's suffering and gloat about her husband's recent death.

What a coward.
This was Florida...can't expect much...
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Old 12-08-2010, 05:25 PM   #65
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And do you guys remember the two former Miami narcotics agents who initiated a meeting with Sue Billig at a Denny's, told her that they'd chase leads all over the world looking for Amy, would call her every day, no matter where they were located at the time to update her on the case, then took $1,500 in cash from her, stuck her with the bill for dinner, and NEVER searched for Amy or even placed a call to the Billigs pretending to search!? Hard to believe that hardcore bikers were actually more helpful in some ways than these former cops, who just outright scammed the Billigs for cash.
Plenty of people put the Billigs through hell. There were the twin brothers who claimed they were holding Amy for ransom (and impeding the investigation in the process) and then all of the informants who kept asking for loans and then giving vague information. This is besides missing persons' families being harassed by self proclaimed psychics.

I think Blair's a SOB who likes to harass people, but I don't think he had anything to do with her disappearance. It's pretty interesting that Branch knew about both Amy's appendectomy scar and the tattoo she recently had done (that only her and Susan knew about).
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Old 12-08-2010, 08:09 PM   #66
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The more I think about it, the more I realize that Blair character was such a self centered idiot that he didn't even think about just exactly who he was dealing with the entire time he was harassing (and then facing in court) with Mrs. Billig.

Blair had a wife and two daughters, who were about 17 and 20 years old at the time of his trial.

Amongst Susan Billig's close acquaintances were everyone from cops, to judges, to gang leaders, to hitmen!

If she decided that she wasn't going to play fair any longer (and God bless her, she was the most understanding and forgiving person I've ever heard of) she could have had bikers pick up his daughters, (as they admitted they sometimes did if they wanted a girl) never to be seen again.

She could have possibly made his life miserable using her connections in the legal world. He was beat up in prison once and had to be segregated, but she could have probably had him killed in a prison murder if she wanted to.

Is he still stealing oxygen from the rest of us? If so, that coward needs to thank Mrs. Billig for sparing his life and that of his entire family, instead of playing the victim (even one of his daughters played the whiny victim) because, I honestly believe, she could have had their lives in her own hands, had she chosen to exert that power.
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Old 12-08-2010, 08:17 PM   #67
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Plenty of people put the Billigs through hell. There were the twin brothers who claimed they were holding Amy for ransom (and impeding the investigation in the process)....
Oh yeah, those spoiled brats seemed to have basically done it for kicks and had no concept of the misery they were causing. When they were confronted with the results of their actions, they still had no empathy or remorse.

They also took the opportunity to play the victim a few times and seemed to not even understand that they had victimized a family who was already being victimized on a daily basis. Completely disgusting.

I know the Billigs had a vast and loving group of friends and supporters. That must have helped and given them the strength to endure what they suffered through.
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Old 12-08-2010, 08:22 PM   #68
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Based off of the UM segment alone, I doubt she was abducted by bikers and unfortunately I think Amy's mother was led on several wild goose chases to find her daughter. I honestly don't think there's hardly any biker connection at all. I must admit I've never read the book about Amy's case, but after reading a few posts about this Hank guy, it seems to me like he's the likely suspect. Could anyone give me a refresher about how this guy Hank is involved in the case?

Back to the biker angle though, the biker "Dave" in the UM segment seemed to be nothing more than an extortionist, IMHO. If he was really intent on finding this woman's daughter, why would he be so open about it? He drove her around on his hog, and took her to that biker bar. If the Outlaws were like the Mafia, wouldn't this be grounds for murdering "Dave" out of fear of being exposed of a crime they comitted? That just doesn't add up to me. I think perhaps "Dave" read about the scar from a newspaper article about Amy (I know her mother said she never revealed the scar, but perhaps there were records that indicated her scar and they were made public in hopes of finding her) and figured it be an easy way to make some cash. The bar fight with "Dave" seems a bit too staged to me. Immediately after the fight, someone goes over to Amy's mother and escorts her out to a cab, and the cab just drives away despite her mother's protests? It's just weird to me as to why they would walk her outside and say, "Ok here's a cab. See ya!" And we not only have a member of the Outlaws but also members of another motorcycle gang who claimed to have seen Amy with the gangs? I just find that highly suspect. Why would they harbor her for all of those years? That's just asking to be caught, if you figure after all of those years she would have most likely had at least one attempt to escape, or to try and attempt to signal for help (if she was on the back of a bike frequently, she had ample time to try and get someone's attention on the road). I honestly don't know what happened to Amy, but this Hank fellow seems to be the likely suspect.
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Old 12-08-2010, 08:54 PM   #69
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One thing that puzzled me about the case was the first 'near sighting' of her that somehow sent her poor mother to seeking leads via biker gangs was at this grocery store where the clerk who allegedly witnessed Amy with the biker/s said that she was simultaneously 'mute' while adamant in maintaining a vegetarian diet while they were picking up supplies from the store. Mrs. Billing decided right then and there that it HAD to be Amy since she knew Amy was a vegetarian (and, if I recall correctly, later claimed 'witnesses' also maintained that Amy maintained her vegetarian diet whilst being a mute captive).
Here's the problem I have with this scenario. If someone is being held captive by individuals so violent that they believe the only way to survive this captivity is to become mute, why would she(Amy) even nonverbally insist on a vegetarian diet rather than simply eat whatever the captor/s scrounged up for them? I mean, in the 1970's tofu and even fresh vegetables weren't in such easy reach for those who'd frequent convenience stores and biker bars (where the bikers would have normally gotten their meals). I'd think the captors would have either further tortured her until she gave up her vegetarian demands (along with her voice) OR outrightly killed her rather than consider keeping her as a captive worth the extra effort of finding her vegetarian meals. Yeah, since we have only theories as opposed to any evidence as to what actually happened to Amy after her disappearance, this would be in the realm of possibility but it makes very little sense to me.
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Old 12-08-2010, 09:03 PM   #70
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From the book, I think Henry Johnson "Hank" Blair was only involved after the fact. I don't think he abducted Amy because it seemed like he never had any real information about her when he'd call Sue Billig.

Everything he said on the phone about the tortures Amy was enduring were very vague and he seemed to be living out an obscene phone call fantasy. For nearly 20 years, he always promised to provide more info in his next call, but never did.

This could mean nothing, but Blair got married 12 days before Amy's disappearance. He could have been busy as a newly wed, spending time with his wife, or going on a honeymoon, and not have time to take Amy. Although, I have heard of a case where a guy actually went out and raped a woman, on his wedding night.

Even after reading the book and watching the UM segment, among other shows, I still don't know if Amy was abducted by a random killer, taken by the bikers, or if something else happened. If she was taken by the bikers, I don't think she lived longer than maybe 3 years.

I don't really believe the story that the main biker Sue had contact with for so many years confessed to his girlfriend, on his death bed, that Amy had been gang raped and fed to alligators the day she went missing. In the book, Sue's son says that story was bought by tv show producers who convinced Sue Billig to have Amy's name and dates of birth and death placed on the family tombstone while they filmed a final shot of her mourning at the grave in the rain. Sue's son, Josh, was incensed at that callousness.

And yep, there were a whole lot of people who sent the Billigs on wild goose chases. The whole situation is so sad.
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Old 12-10-2010, 04:47 AM   #71
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I dont think she was taken by bikers. I think thats as phoney as the whole devil cult killing kids in the west memphis 3 case. Its one of those ideas that gets blown way out of proportion. Its becomes an urban legend in a way, like there's some killer biker gang going around kidnapping and murdering girls off the street.
Someone else said it earlier about biker gangs being alot like mafias. This is true, these are criminal organizations that make money off of illegal activity. It is not in their interest to draw the attention of law enforcement by abducting girls in upper class neighborhoods.

They dont have to abduct their women as many will freely go with them. Anyone who knows anything about biker gangs knows that there is no shortage of women around these guys and while they may trade their women or sell them they are not kidnapped. This idea that they take girls who's families will launch all out search efforts for them and sell them to one another is insane.

I don't get the biker that told the mother he'd take her to Amy. Why would he do this?? So he could be killed?? What's he gonna tell his biker buddies? "Hey remember that girl you kidnapped and are holding well I brought her mother here and she wants her back"? Are you kidding?? This was all a game and she probably paid him.

I didnt get the whole bar fight in Tulsa thing either. Why didnt Sue just wait there and see if Amy came out? Why not wait for the cops and let them know her missing daughter was suppose to be in there??
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Old 12-10-2010, 08:32 AM   #72
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Quote:
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One thing that puzzled me about the case was the first 'near sighting' of her that somehow sent her poor mother to seeking leads via biker gangs was at this grocery store where the clerk who allegedly witnessed Amy with the biker/s said that she was simultaneously 'mute' while adamant in maintaining a vegetarian diet while they were picking up supplies from the store. Mrs. Billing decided right then and there that it HAD to be Amy since she knew Amy was a vegetarian (and, if I recall correctly, later claimed 'witnesses' also maintained that Amy maintained her vegetarian diet whilst being a mute captive).
Here's the problem I have with this scenario. If someone is being held captive by individuals so violent that they believe the only way to survive this captivity is to become mute, why would she(Amy) even nonverbally insist on a vegetarian diet rather than simply eat whatever the captor/s scrounged up for them? I mean, in the 1970's tofu and even fresh vegetables weren't in such easy reach for those who'd frequent convenience stores and biker bars (where the bikers would have normally gotten their meals). I'd think the captors would have either further tortured her until she gave up her vegetarian demands (along with her voice) OR outrightly killed her rather than consider keeping her as a captive worth the extra effort of finding her vegetarian meals. Yeah, since we have only theories as opposed to any evidence as to what actually happened to Amy after her disappearance, this would be in the realm of possibility but it makes very little sense to me.
Brillent!!! I just thought after you said this. Why in fact a rough crowd of bikers would risk having her in public with them to just pick up some vegatarian food? I don't believe that was amy now that i think more about it..The person who walked in was quiet (perhaps could be held against her own will) but they are actually catering to her needs with specific type of food she eats, highly doesnt seem like killers of that girl whoever she would have been to me. Why bother if she's just being traded from man to man and perhaps being raped somewhere out there? Let's think about how they treated Sue for a moment...She asked to see Amy and they put her in a car to go from the biker bar, not in fact catering to sues request or event acknologing they had amy..which leads me to believe they never did...I think the man that took sue to the bar went up to speak to someone else to tell them "hey this girls mom is looking for her, lets try and make some money". and the person he spoke with got angry at the fact he's bringing the bikers in on this missing person and the lady to the bar for that matter! huh?
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Old 12-10-2010, 08:48 AM   #73
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Quote:
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I dont think she was taken by bikers. I think thats as phoney as the whole devil cult killing kids in the west memphis 3 case. Its one of those ideas that gets blown way out of proportion. Its becomes an urban legend in a way, like there's some killer biker gang going around kidnapping and murdering girls off the street.
Someone else said it earlier about biker gangs being alot like mafias. This is true, these are criminal organizations that make money off of illegal activity. It is not in their interest to draw the attention of law enforcement by abducting girls in upper class neighborhoods.

They dont have to abduct their women as many will freely go with them. Anyone who knows anything about biker gangs knows that there is no shortage of women around these guys and while they may trade their women or sell them they are not kidnapped. This idea that they take girls who's families will launch all out search efforts for them and sell them to one another is insane.

I don't get the biker that told the mother he'd take her to Amy. Why would he do this?? So he could be killed?? What's he gonna tell his biker buddies? "Hey remember that girl you kidnapped and are holding well I brought her mother here and she wants her back"? Are you kidding?? This was all a game and she probably paid him.

I didnt get the whole bar fight in Tulsa thing either. Why didnt Sue just wait there and see if Amy came out? Why not wait for the cops and let them know her missing daughter was suppose to be in there??
I never got this either? why didnt sue just tell the dam cab driver to stop around the corner and sneak a peek whats going on? And why after so many years would amy be in another country and the biker trying to solicit her? If in fact they had that type of money to take her to the other country then why not do this early on the game? These are bikers! They arent going to cough up the money to take this girl to another country and then try and sell her on the streets..They would have done this in neihbooring florida state! The only way the other country thing would have event made sense is if she married someone and went with them to the other country, but you dont think amy would have told the officials at the airport? This is not a credibal lead and sounds like it was made up for publicity purposes to generate money since this is a high profile type of case...Sue should have just gotton the officials at the bar to arrest the bikers..no playing around anymore! She had gone on to that point and the guy didnt cough out the info at his house and not at the bar well get the cops now to question all of them since he claimed his buddy was there and had amy..but sue was scared and desperately did whatever they wanted to get more leads to get amy back..it makes you think..amy was opposite from her mother and usually kids are..she was a hippy and outgoing and social and probably wouldnt have been scared of many ppl she encountered but i do doubt she would have went with bikers or they would have magically pick her up nearby her nice neiboorhood...Hank is a suspect they should still be looking at, and possibly like i said church movements in that time.
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Old 12-10-2010, 10:33 AM   #74
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I dont think she was taken by bikers. I think thats as phoney as the whole devil cult killing kids in the west memphis 3 case. Its one of those ideas that gets blown way out of proportion. Its becomes an urban legend in a way, like there's some killer biker gang going around kidnapping and murdering girls off the street.
Someone else said it earlier about biker gangs being alot like mafias. This is true, these are criminal organizations that make money off of illegal activity. It is not in their interest to draw the attention of law enforcement by abducting girls in upper class neighborhoods.

They dont have to abduct their women as many will freely go with them. Anyone who knows anything about biker gangs knows that there is no shortage of women around these guys and while they may trade their women or sell them they are not kidnapped. This idea that they take girls who's families will launch all out search efforts for them and sell them to one another is insane.
That's what I said when I first saw this segment, which caused my dad to explain how very wrong I was. He was in the Highway Patrol in Florida at around this time, and yeah, bikers were abducting middle class girls. He personally found a grove where about 5 women/girls were chained to trees, all dead, all raped and tortured. One was 12 years old. It was bikers (The Pagans, specifically). It was not an isolated incident, though the scale was unique. Sure, they had willing women, but so? Most rapists could, if they wanted, find a woman to have sex with them. But that's not what they want.

The racketeering stuff all seems to be fairly late from the brief research I just did - the 1990s on. Even Hunter S. Thompson's book, which is trying oh so very hard to make the Hells Angels sound cool and awesome, ended up mentioning their brutality against women. Gang rapes were a common punishment. They weren't all non-violent racketeers who had respectful sex with ladies who liked them. I don't know how common it was or if there was a large ring that sold women, but abductions? Oh, yes. That happened. And the Hells Angels in Germany were found to be behind just such a ring, for what it's worth.

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Old 12-10-2010, 12:40 PM   #75
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I don't believe Amy was ever taken to the UK. I don't know what the motive was behind that part of the story. I think it was a british production company who paid Paul the biker's girlfriend to tell the "gang rape and alligator" story to Sue Billig on camera. They were also the ones who filmed the "mourning at the grave" scene. Seems like the UK guy who claimed that someone tried to sell Amy to him was PI or something. Maybe he was connected to the production company and was hoping to get fame or money from being involved in the case.

The book barely went into the aspect of Amy always being called Mute. It mentioned "Sunshine" as one of her possible nicknames. Was it the UM segment that made such a big connection to Amy and the nickname "Mute"?

I also doubt the eyewitness convenience store clerk's ID of Amy. We all know how many people have claimed to recognize a missing person and they are almost always wrong. It was on that ID that Mrs. Billig went to a nearby apartment where bikers hung out to see if Amy was still with the gang there. They were gone, but a hairbrush was left behind. Officials only said that the hair found on it was similar to Amy's but it was never confirmed. Can they even match a hair to a person? I thought the best they could do with that was say that a hair was either consistent or inconsistent with the suspected person.

Regarding Paul the Biker stringing Mrs. Billig along for so many years... He never really took large sums of money from her, but she did pay him for travel expenses and some other things. She got a lawyer friend of hers to get him off of serious weapons (and DUI) charges in exchange for info on Amy, which he never produced. IIRC, she paid for repairs to his bike so he could have reliable transportation in his "search" for Amy.

I have the feeling that he used Sue Billig to help finance some of his travels, not looking for Amy, but to go to biker meetings around the country. When she went to the midwest on his claim that Amy was being held there, there was a big biker gathering going on. IIRC, she spent about a month there and Paul was several days late meeting with her. There was a big Jehovah's Witness convention in town and all the hotels were booked. She ended up paying for Paul to stay a night in the honeymoon suite of her hotel, since it was the only available room.

After she went back to FL, he was supposedly shot several times, beaten, and left for dead. He was probably just getting into gang fights. He was a former Hells Angel, ran with the Pagans and the Outlaws, and eventually turned snitch. I wouldn't be surprised if his wavering loyalties were at the root of the attempted murder.
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