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Old 05-19-2015, 02:07 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by MegtheEgg86
Agreed.

If it weren't for Mark Findlay and his name repeatedly coming up in conjunction with Keith's death, and then Findlay himself turning up dead in a very suspect supposed accident, I'd probably be more apt to consider the suicide theory. I think Keith was killed and put in that tree.
Completely agree Meg. The big thing for me was him saying that he "helped put Keith in the tree" when he was drunk. Take that away and I could very easily buy the suicide theory. Especially after what TheCars discovered.
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Old 05-19-2015, 02:50 PM   #47
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I am fascinated with this case and I can't stop reading about it and delving deeper. Here are some facts left out of the UM segment and questions I have about them:

-The police theory of suicide has Keith parking his car at the community clubhouse and walking 2/10 of a mile to the spot he hung himself. Keith's mom had said that she last saw Keith nearly two days prior to his body being found. Did his mother or any of his friends within the neighborhood remember seeing Keith's car at the clubhouse during his disappearance? Or was it stated that specifically no one saw his car until after the discovery of the body?

-Keith was carrying a bag containing a change of clothes and his brown boots. Had he done this any time prior before? Is it remotely possible that he spent the night with someone (after his mother last seen him but prior to being found dead) which is why he left with a bag and a change of clothes? Could he have spent the night with Mark Finley?

-Keith was also carrying a 4 pack of wine coolers, and bottles were found scattered around his body. Knowing that no autopsy was done and that there's no way of determining whether or not he had drank the wine coolers, is this a particular brand that he was known to drink? Was he a drinker?

-The police report indicates that the last time anyone can verify that Keith was alive was after his father called him on July 29th and told him he was going to take his car away. Have there been any other reports of other people who have said that they saw Keith on the 30th or the 31st?

-The other man named in the threatening letter received by Keith's mother has presumably never been injured or killed. Or this would bolster the claim that Finley and this man were killed in retaliation for Keith's death. I believe I have Id'ed this guy, and if he's the right person, he's still alive today and is a successful mortgage lender.

-Why did Mark Finley say he was going to "unload" to Keith's mother, yet not reach out to her for an entire month? Is it possible that since there were rumors going around town involving Finley bragging to people that he was involved with Keith's death, that by "unloading" he simply wanted to tell his mother that he had nothing to do with Keith's death?

-The threatening letter (with the photographs) was sent to Keith's mom 6 years after his death. Isn't it possible that due to the passage of time that Keith's mom simply misremembered the clothes he had? And why were the pictures and the note sent 6 years after the fact?

-Is it possible that one of Keith's friends somehow obtained the pictures of Keith and sent them anonymously to Mary in some sort of way to say that they were going to extract revenge on Mark Finley for what his alleged role in Keith's death?

-Is there any more information with regards to Mark Finley? Was he feeling nervous, did he mention his life being in danger to friends, family, etc. shortly before he died?

-At the time of Keith's death, it was a Maryland state law that the State Medical Examiner had discretion as to whether or not an autopsy was to be performed on suicide victims. That law has since been changed, but at the time of Keith's death it was different.

-The state medical examiner (after Keith's body was exhumed and an autopsy was performed) had said that after reviewing the autopsy, "It is my opinion that the toxicological findings are consistent with the effects of the embalming and body preparation process", and, "The absence of any physical injury on the body supports the conclusion [that] Keith Warren's hanging was a self—inflicted act." If Keith was in fact murdered, where are the signs of a struggle, signs of injuries, etc.?

-The accidental death staging theory has Keith ingesting or inhaling some sort of drug before reacting extremely negatively to it and vomiting (presumably all over his clothing), before dying. Whoever he was with panicked, cleaned him up, and changed his clothes before setting him up in the tree. Not being familiar with autopsies or pathology, but wouldn't the autopsy have shown evidence of some sort of vomiting or damage to Keith's esophagus?

-I think the UM segment was a bit misleading with regards to Mark Finley's death. They make it seem like he hit a curb and tumbled over a cliff and died as a result. I found an old WaPo article from 1993 that says: "Couey contends that there is a connection between her son's death and a pre-dawn bicycle accident last August that killed Harold Finley, a friend of Keith Warren's who was present when Warren's body was found. Police ruled Finley’s death an accident, stating that he received head injuries when the front wheel of his bike came off about 5 a.m. while he was riding on a bike path in Wheaton." Is this true that Finley was present at the scene when Keith's body was found?

-Several articles written around the time of the UM segment being filmed mention that Finley was a friend of Keith's. The UM segment makes it seem like they were only acquaintances.

-According to a poster on this forum, IIRC it's the same person responsible for running the Keith Warren website, Mary never divulged the name of the other person named in the threatening note with Mark Finley. But a local news station ran a story on Keith's death, and specifically mention that Finley's family had no comment with regards to the case and that, "a third friend has also gone to police to complain that Couey had told him that he too might be in danger." So she did reach out to this other guy and the police know the ID of this guy if this report is accurate.

-The same local news report say that the photos Mary Couey received were copies of the original police photos. And it's odd that they were received 6 years after Keith's death and on what would have been his 25th birthday. That does seem indicative of some sort of prank rather than someone concerned about the case trying to reach out to the family to help.

-Keith's mother claims that her car was broken into and that the threatening note was stolen. Did she show this note to any other person?

With all of the available evidence that I can gather it does seem like the police REALLY bungled the way the case was investigated. I don't think there was any criminal intent on the part of the investigating PD, but I do think there was some possible civil lawsuits that could have been filed. However, despite the fact that the police seem to have mishandled the investigation, I'm still leaning more towards accidental death or suicide. I just don't see the evidence for murder.
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Old 05-19-2015, 03:02 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by MegtheEgg86
Agreed.

If it weren't for Mark Findlay and his name repeatedly coming up in conjunction with Keith's death, and then Findlay himself turning up dead in a very suspect supposed accident, I'd probably be more apt to consider the suicide theory. I think Keith was killed and put in that tree.
I'm starting to wonder as to whether or not Finley is just another "woman in the floppy hat" and a red herring in this case. Yes he bragged about being involved with Keith's death, and that article says he was present at the scene after the body was discovered. I'm starting to wonder whether or not the bragging was just some sort of false braggadocio on the part of Finley when he was drunk, being that he was there when the cops found Keith's body and wanted to inject himself into the case more than he was involved.

Plus, Keith's mom reached out to Finley after receiving the note, not the other way around. And Finley told her he'd talk to her soon, but never did. He died a full month later. Just seems odd that he'd wait that long if he indeed planned on "unloading" what he knew to Mary Couey. And as far as I know, the other man named never came forward claiming to have information with regards to Keith's death. He went to the police after Mary Couey contacted him telling him he was threatened in the letter she received, but gave no indication that he had information about Keith's death.
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Old 05-19-2015, 03:52 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by TheCars1986
-I think the UM segment was a bit misleading with regards to Mark Finley's death. They make it seem like he hit a curb and tumbled over a cliff and died as a result. I found an old WaPo article from 1993 that says: "Couey contends that there is a connection between her son's death and a pre-dawn bicycle accident last August that killed Harold Finley, a friend of Keith Warren's who was present when Warren's body was found. Police ruled Finley’s death an accident, stating that he received head injuries when the front wheel of his bike came off about 5 a.m. while he was riding on a bike path in Wheaton." Is this true that Finley was present at the scene when Keith's body was found?

Could that be him in the background of that one photo that is taken of Keith Warren to the side? Whoever it is, its a black male that appears to be in normal clothes, not any type of uniform or attire that a crime scene investigator or anyone else in law enforcement would wear.
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Old 05-19-2015, 04:02 PM   #50
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Could that be him in the background of that one photo that is taken of Keith Warren to the side? Whoever it is, its a black male that appears to be in normal clothes, not any type of uniform or attire that a crime scene investigator or anyone else in law enforcement would wear.
It was a white male (who's curiously shirtless) who was the boyfriend to the woman who called 911 to report Keith's death. The police and local news report stressed that he was not involved in any way, and that due to police ineptitude, they didn't cordon off the scene, and he appeared in the pictures after going out with his girlfriend to show police where Keith's body was.
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Old 05-19-2015, 04:20 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by TheCars1986
It was a white male (who's curiously shirtless) who was the boyfriend to the woman who called 911 to report Keith's death. The police and local news report stressed that he was not involved in any way, and that due to police ineptitude, they didn't cordon off the scene, and he appeared in the pictures after going out with his girlfriend to show police where Keith's body was.
http://keithwarrenjusticesite.blogsp...&max-results=7

That's a white guy? Looked like a black male to me.
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Old 05-19-2015, 07:39 PM   #52
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http://keithwarrenjusticesite.blogsp...&max-results=7

That's a white guy? Looked like a black male to me.
I could have sworn I've seen a closer, clearer picture somewhere and the guy looks white, possibly Hispanic. In that picture it's hard to tell.

Anyway, I was incorrect. The man in the photo is the person who was the "occupant" in the house in which the lady who was walking her dog and found Keith was staying. There was another man staying in the house that time who was the lady's boyfriend. The occupant of the house was the one who led the police and paramedics to the area where Keith's body was found. And he was the one in the photo.

To my knowledge, none of the occupants inside knew Keith, which is why Rodney Kendall was asked to ID the body.

There is a claim on a website (or maybe in this thread or another Keith Warren thread) that a 911 call was made about a "suicide in the basement" of the residence where the 911 call originated. And something to the effect of one of the paramedics (Dallas Lipp, I believe was his name) signed an affidavit related to this tidbit. This fits in with the "accidental death at a party" theory. But after viewing Lipp's affidavit, he makes no mention of the call coming into a "suicide in a basement". He says the call was made from the residence picked up on the 911 call saying that the apparent suicide occurred "in the area" of the residence. Not the basement. This house was right next to the wooded area where Keith was found. There is no mention of the word basement in his affidavit. He does say when they arrived no one was waiting for them outside and that they had to knock on the door, and that one of the people (the man in the photo) reluctantly agreed to show them where Keith's body was...but that's it. He makes note that the three in the house seemed "matter of fact" about things, but also pretty shaken up.
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Old 07-31-2015, 08:24 PM   #53
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Default Answers the questions from TheCars1986 pls find response in red

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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheCars1986
I am fascinated with this case and I can't stop reading about it and delving deeper. Here are some facts left out of the UM segment and questions I have about them:

-The police theory of suicide has Keith parking his car at the community clubhouse and walking 2/10 of a mile to the spot he hung himself. Keith's mom had said that she last saw Keith nearly two days prior to his body being found. Did his mother or any of his friends within the neighborhood remember seeing Keith's car at the clubhouse during his disappearance? Or was it stated that specifically no one saw his car until after the discovery of the body?- No...because his car was not parked there the 1 1/2 days prior to his body being found

-Keith was carrying a bag containing a change of clothes and his brown boots. Had he done this any time prior before? -No Is it remotely possible that he spent the night with someone (after his mother last seen him but prior to being found dead) which is why he left with a bag and a change of clothes? Could he have spent the night with Mark Finley?-No because it was routine for Keith to let my mother know of his plans if he was going to be late

-Keith was also carrying a 4 pack of wine coolers, and bottles were found scattered around his body. Knowing that no autopsy was done and that there's no way of determining whether or not he had drank the wine coolers, is this a particular brand that he was known to drink? Was he a drinker?there was 2 bottle tops found in his front pocket of the pants that was not his he was wearing by the funeral home worker who cut his body down off the tree. There is no mention of any empty bottles found at the scene..so would you like for my family to believe Keith drank wine coolers left the scene to throw them away and then come back to hang himself?

-The police report indicates that the last time anyone can verify that Keith was alive was after his father called him on July 29th and told him he was going to take his car away. Have there been any other reports of other people who have said that they saw Keith on the 30th or the 31st?No because MCMPD closed the case at the scene and did not investigate the crime as anything other than a suicide

-The other man named in the threatening letter received by Keith's mother has presumably never been injured or killed. Or this would bolster the claim that Finley and this man were killed in retaliation for Keith's death. I believe I have Id'ed this guy, and if he's the right person, he's still alive today and is a successful mortgage lender. and the point you are making is that people who have committed crimes and dont get caught cannot go on to have live a full life?

-Why did Mark Finley say he was going to "unload" to Keith's mother, yet not reach out to her for an entire month? Is it possible that since there were rumors going around town involving Finley bragging to people that he was involved with Keith's death, that by "unloading" he simply wanted to tell his mother that he had nothing to do with Keith's death? Only Mark Finely can answer that question, however I heard the message on the tape and I personally took it to MCMPD and the tape came up missing

-The threatening letter (with the photographs) was sent to Keith's mom 6 years after his death. Isn't it possible that due to the passage of time that Keith's mom simply misremembered the clothes he had? And why were the pictures and the note sent 6 years after the fact? No because per the police inventory the items I have in my possession are the items my uncle received back in 1986 from the investigating officer

-Is it possible that one of Keith's friends somehow obtained the pictures of Keith and sent them anonymously to Mary in some sort of way to say that they were going to extract revenge on Mark Finley for what his alleged role in Keith's death? Montgomery county Maryland pd have CONFIRMED they are the copies of the negatives currently in their arhive

-Is there any more information with regards to Mark Finley? Was he feeling nervous, did he mention his life being in danger to friends, family, etc. shortly before he died? The answer would require someone doing a investigation

-At the time of Keith's death, it was a Maryland state law that the State Medical Examiner had discretion as to whether or not an autopsy was to be performed on suicide victims. That law has since been changed, but at the time of Keith's death it was different.It has been proven that there is NO MEDICAL documentation/information for a determination of suicide. The basics of a lividity test were not done. We dont know what day or time Keith passed away because no one with at medical background examined his body, not to mention the funeral home worker who cut Keith off the tree said that he notice there was NO soling on Keith's clothing.

-The state medical examiner (after Keith's body was exhumed and an autopsy was performed) had said that after reviewing the autopsy, "It is my opinion that the toxicological findings are consistent with the effects of the embalming and body preparation process", and, "The absence of any physical injury on the body supports the conclusion [that] Keith Warren's hanging was a self—inflicted act." If Keith was in fact murdered, where are the signs of a struggle, signs of injuries, etc.?Or he could have been dead prior to being strung up on tree

-The accidental death staging theory has Keith ingesting or inhaling some sort of drug before reacting extremely negatively to it and vomiting (presumably all over his clothing), before dying. Whoever he was with panicked, cleaned him up, and changed his clothes before setting him up in the tree. Not being familiar with autopsies or pathology, but wouldn't the autopsy have shown evidence of some sort of vomiting or damage to Keith's esophagus? You made our point... MCMPD investigating Detective never thought we would get the pictures which would validate our claim all along something wasnt right.

-I think the UM segment was a bit misleading with regards to Mark Finley's death. They make it seem like he hit a curb and tumbled over a cliff and died as a result. I found an old WaPo article from 1993 that says: "Couey contends that there is a connection between her son's death and a pre-dawn bicycle accident last August that killed Harold Finley, a friend of Keith Warren's who was present when Warren's body was found. Police ruled Finley’s death an accident, stating that he received head injuries when the front wheel of his bike came off about 5 a.m. while he was riding on a bike path in Wheaton." Is this true that Finley was present at the scene when Keith's body was found? Mark was not present however the night before Keith's body was found, I was personally told by 4 people Mark came through my neighborhood like a bat out of hell looking for Keith and I was given the description as if he was trying to either warn Keith or set him up

-Several articles written around the time of the UM segment being filmed mention that Finley was a friend of Keith's. The UM segment makes it seem like they were only acquaintances. Mark was an acquaitance

-According to a poster on this forum, IIRC it's the same person responsible for running the Keith Warren website, Mary never divulged the name of the other person named in the threatening note with Mark Finley. But a local news station ran a story on Keith's death, and specifically mention that Finley's family had no comment with regards to the case and that, "a third friend has also gone to police to complain that Couey had told him that he too might be in danger." So she did reach out to this other guy and the police know the ID of this guy if this report is accurate.And what exactly does this have to do with the fact that at 1:30pm on the afternoon of July 31 there was no physical evidence to rule this case a suicide and Keith's body should have gone to the coroners office or ME office for autopsy

-The same local news report say that the photos Mary Couey received were copies of the original police photos. And it's odd that they were received 6 years after Keith's death and on what would have been his 25th birthday. That does seem indicative of some sort of prank rather than someone concerned about the case trying to reach out to the family to help.MCMPD have confirmed they are their pictures so using your theory someone broke into the police department and stole the negatives, had the negatives developed and then broke back in put the negatives back and gave us the pictures

-Keith's mother claims that her car was broken into and that the threatening note was stolen. Did she show this note to any other person?Yes, I saw the note

With all of the available evidence that I can gather it does seem like the police REALLY bungled the way the case was investigated. I don't think there was any criminal intent on the part of the investigating PD, but I do think there was some possible civil lawsuits that could have been filed. However, despite the fact that the police seem to have mishandled the investigation, I'm still leaning more towards accidental death or suicide. I just don't see the evidence for murder.
I will continue to ask the question what information/evidence at 1:30pm on the afternoon of July 31, 1986 allowed Detective Beasley to play God and totally change the dynamic of my family structure
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Old 07-31-2015, 10:57 PM   #54
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Thank you for posting. I realize today marks 29 years, and I'm deeply sorry for your loss. I hope that one day you get answers.
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Old 07-31-2015, 11:35 PM   #55
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Thank you for posting. I realize today marks 29 years, and I'm deeply sorry for your loss. I hope that one day you get answers.
Thankyou for the your nice message. It is difficult every year for 2 days because we dont know the exact day or time Keith died.
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Old 08-01-2015, 11:05 AM   #56
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No...because his car was not parked there the 1 1/2 days prior to his body being found
Did Keith say where he was going with his car the last time he spoke with his parents?

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Originally Posted by keith warren
No because it was routine for Keith to let my mother know of his plans if he was going to be late
Were there any reasons why Keith would have had the brown boots and a change of clothes?

Quote:
Originally Posted by keith warren
there was 2 bottle tops found in his front pocket of the pants that was not his he was wearing by the funeral home worker who cut his body down off the tree. There is no mention of any empty bottles found at the scene..so would you like for my family to believe Keith drank wine coolers left the scene to throw them away and then come back to hang himself?
I had read an article wrong, my apologies. There were no bottles found at the scene, but there was an empty carton of wine coolers found there. But did he drink that particular brand prior?

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Originally Posted by keith warren
No because MCMPD closed the case at the scene and did not investigate the crime as anything other than a suicide
I haven't seen the UM segment in a long time, but was Keith reported missing prior to his body being found?

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Originally Posted by keith warren
and the point you are making is that people who have committed crimes and dont get caught cannot go on to have live a full life?
No, the point was that if Finley was murdered as an effort to keep quiet, the note specifically said that "so and so" was next. And he's still alive. Which doesn't coincide with the theory that Finley was murdered to be silenced.

Quote:
Originally Posted by keith warren
Only Mark Finely can answer that question, however I heard the message on the tape and I personally took it to MCMPD and the tape came up missing
If you don't mind me asking, what was Finley's demeanor like on the tape message?

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Originally Posted by keith warren
It has been proven that there is NO MEDICAL documentation/information for a determination of suicide. The basics of a lividity test were not done. We dont know what day or time Keith passed away because no one with at medical background examined his body, not to mention the funeral home worker who cut Keith off the tree said that he notice there was NO soling on Keith's clothing.
I know that there was never an autopsy done that supported the death as suicide. It was a (head scratching) Maryland law back then that did not require a death by suicide to have an autopsy performed. That law has since changed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by keith warren
Or he could have been dead prior to being strung up on tree
Yes he could have. But how was he murdered?

Quote:
Originally Posted by keith warren
Mark was not present however the night before Keith's body was found, I was personally told by 4 people Mark came through my neighborhood like a bat out of hell looking for Keith and I was given the description as if he was trying to either warn Keith or set him up
Thanks for clearing that up.

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Originally Posted by keith warren
And what exactly does this have to do with the fact that at 1:30pm on the afternoon of July 31 there was no physical evidence to rule this case a suicide and Keith's body should have gone to the coroners office or ME office for autopsy
Just saying that the authorities were aware of this other man named in the note, and had questioned him.
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Old 08-01-2015, 11:58 AM   #57
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This may be a minor factoid but hopefully Sherri can answer for me.

The UM segment says that Mark Finely left a message on your mother's answering machine saying, "Miss Warren, this is Mark Findlay. I got your message and I will be by to see you.’ I do remember the specific words were ‘I need to unload."

UM hints that was the last time there was any contact between Mary and Mark before he died so the meeting never took place. But, as it turns out, an entire month passed before Mark died. What happened there? Was it an entire month of phone tag (which seems highly unlikely) or do you think Mark got second thoughts about unwinding to your mother and decided to ignore her calls?

I'm just wondering why there was no further contact during that time period.
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Old 08-01-2015, 01:15 PM   #58
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[QUOTE=TheCars1986]Did Keith say where he was going with his car the last time he spoke with his parents?He said he was going out with "friends"... the same friends who did not call or come by looking for Keith the day and a half he was missing.. any other time they would have been on our phone or in my house hanging outThis information was given to MCMPD with no follow up at the time



Were there any reasons why Keith would have had the brown boots and a change of clothes?My mother saw Keith leave the house in the items which we received from MCMPD the day after his body was found minus the shorts, underware and tshirt, the brown construction boots, blue hooded jacket jimi Hendrix hat and blue duffle bag with tape it.... He did not leave with a chang of clothing



I had read an article wrong, my apologies. There were no bottles found at the scene, but there was an empty carton of wine coolers found there. But did he drink that particular brand prior?that I cannot answer for fact, however if you have empty wine cooler cartons where are the empty bottles?



I haven't seen the UM segment in a long time, but was Keith reported missing prior to his body being found?My mother made several attempts to report him missing in the 24hrs which she hadn't seen or heard from him... MCMPD would not take the report until 48hrs after she last saw him



No, the point was that if Finley was murdered as an effort to keep quiet, the note specifically said that "so and so" was next. And he's still alive. Which doesn't coincide with the theory that Finley was murdered to be silenced. Mark had information in relation to how Keith got on that tree



If you don't mind me asking, what was Finley's demeanor like on the tape message? Nervous



I know that there was never an autopsy done that supported the death as suicide. It was a (head scratching) Maryland law back then that did not require a death by suicide to have an autopsy performed. That law has since changed.There was NOTHING at the scene at 130pm to classify it a suicide or not[/B]



Yes he could have. But how was he murdered?because no autopsy was performed and the Detective did his very best to destroy evidence that question will never be answered. from cutting the tree down to "losing" the noose... The lead Detective did everything in his power to cover up something


Thanks for clearing that up.



Just saying that the authorities were aware of this other man named in the note, and had questioned him.No they did not question him... he went to them to file a compliant against my mother. He was never question in an official capacity
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Old 08-01-2015, 01:20 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dynoguy88
This may be a minor factoid but hopefully Sherri can answer for me.

The UM segment says that Mark Finely left a message on your mother's answering machine saying, "Miss Warren, this is Mark Findlay. I got your message and I will be by to see you.’ I do remember the specific words were ‘I need to unload."

UM hints that was the last time there was any contact between Mary and Mark before he died so the meeting never took place. But, as it turns out, an entire month passed before Mark died. What happened there? Was it an entire month of phone tag (which seems highly unlikely) or do you think Mark got second thoughts about unwinding to your mother and decided to ignore her calls?

I'm just wondering why there was no further contact during that time period.
I cannot say why Mark waited a month to make contact. I was not familiar with Mark and did not have a conversation with him outside of the one time in a mall at a random encounter
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Old 08-04-2015, 02:29 PM   #60
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Sherri, I feel so sorry for you and your family for the suffering you all have had to endure with no having justice for Keith. I do believe he was murdered and it was covered up from what I've read over the years.

I have a question that you might be able to answer since you probably have more information then I do. Is there a theory or a reason as to why Keith would've been murdered? Also, was anyone who could have or would have had a motive connected to the lead detective or anyone in the police department that would lead them to cover it up? Just wondering if you had any theories regarding that.
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