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Old 10-24-2011, 01:32 PM   #226
TheCars1986
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Quote:
Originally Posted by justins5256
I think it depends who was around when he died or was found dead. I wouldn't be surprised if someone (perhaps "Susan") took Kurt down to the cot in the basement to "sleep it off", he dies, and is discovered after the fact by Susan or someone else. There was testimony that Kurt was drinking at the party. There was also testimony that he didn't know most of the people at this party and that many of the party-goers were older than Kurt. These people could all be potential witnesses to Kurt's last moments, but as they didn't know who he was and were probably drunk or stoned themselves, didn't attach any significance to his presence and actions that night.
I can see how that's plausible that the majority of the party goers were drunk and or stoned, so probably didn't pay much attention to what was going on with Kurt.

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I think it's also possible that people who were in attendance wouldn't necessarily want to come forward either because they were using illicit substances themselves, witnessed the use of illicit substances, or even worse, are fearful of being accused of having a hand in Sova's death.
But after all of these years, why would someone be fearful to come forward just becaused they either partaked in or witnessed people using drugs? I mean all someone would have to do was come forward and say they saw Kurt passed out on a cot in the basement, or they saw some people "helping" Kurt into the basement, etc. and IMO the case is blown open and hopefully solved after some requestioning. "Susan" needs to be requestioned because it's obvious she knew something. No one innocently would call Kurt's father and say that "maybe your son is in my basement" only to recant it when his father did in fact show up.

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Originally Posted by justins5256
It would be easy to write this whole thing off as an accidental overdose or reaction to alcohol or a drug save one troubling fact - the "Crazy from Detroit". Perhaps he was just a "crazy" but the fact that he predicted not only the discovery of Sova's body, but also predicted that the instrument death would be undectable - which an autopsy confirmed it was. You've got to wonder about that.
I believe police questioned this guy, wasn't he a former mential patient or something? And didn't they attribute the fact that he "predicted" when his body would be found as a remarkable coincidence? I know it's hard to believe, but it's still possible. And I guess it's possible that after Kurt's body was discovered, the lady who worked at the store, who was had the odd encounter with the "Crazy", got her details wrong?
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Old 10-24-2011, 03:28 PM   #227
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheCars1986
But after all of these years, why would someone be fearful to come forward just becaused they either partaked in or witnessed people using drugs? I mean all someone would have to do was come forward and say they saw Kurt passed out on a cot in the basement, or they saw some people "helping" Kurt into the basement, etc. and IMO the case is blown open and hopefully solved after some requestioning.
Back in '81 I could understand people not wanting to come forward for the reasons I highlighted.

Today, there is probably little to no risk of prosecution. However, there is also little incentive for someone to come forward now. As I've said before in regard to cases where there could be potential witnesses: it's easier to do nothing than it is to do something.

If someone does have info or saw something unusual that night, maybe they incorrectly assume it's of little importance. Maybe they assume the cops already know/have the same info. Maybe they think that since the Sovas are dead no one cares anymore. Who knows?

To extrapolate from that, I doubt Susan could be prosecuted for much today, but she presumably hasn't cracked. The two men who placed Kurt's body in the ravine haven't turned up either. I think these are people who have since moved on with their lives, put the past behind them and probably care little about Kurt Sova, the pain his family endured and ultimately the outcome of the case. They were cowardly enough to withhold the truth 30 years ago when we all agree they should have stepped up to the plate and taken responsibility for their actions. They obviously haven't attempted to rectify this situation in the years since, and frankly, I don't expect them to at this juncture.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheCars1986
"Susan" needs to be requestioned because it's obvious she knew something. No one innocently would call Kurt's father and say that "maybe your son is in my basement" only to recant it when his father did in fact show up.
No doubt.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheCars1986
I believe police questioned this guy, wasn't he a former mential patient or something? And didn't they attribute the fact that he "predicted" when his body would be found as a remarkable coincidence? I know it's hard to believe, but it's still possible. And I guess it's possible that after Kurt's body was discovered, the lady who worked at the store, who was had the odd encounter with the "Crazy", got her details wrong?
Yeah. I'm not great at conveying the feeling in words, but it's one of those odd little tidbits UM would occasionally throw in to a story that would make the hairs on your neck stand at attention as it dawns on you that perhaps something really, really bizarre is going on.

I suppose it's possible, as you suggested, she was mistaken about what "the Crazy' said and his prediction was a mere coincidence or lucky guess.

While I've always believed that Kurt Sova died accidentally, probably as a result of alcohol or drug abuse, I've never known just what to do with that little tidbit about the "Crazy from Detroit", to be honest.
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Old 10-24-2011, 04:15 PM   #228
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Quote:
Originally Posted by justins5256
Yeah. I'm not great at conveying the feeling in words, but it's one of those odd little tidbits UM would occasionally throw in to a story that would make the hairs on your neck stand at attention as it dawns on you that perhaps something really, really bizarre is going on.

I suppose it's possible, as you suggested, she was mistaken about what "the Crazy' said and his prediction was a mere coincidence or lucky guess.

While I've always believed that Kurt Sova died accidentally, probably as a result of alcohol or drug abuse, I've never known just what to do with that little tidbit about the "Crazy from Detroit", to be honest.
For all we know the "crazy" could have said, "They're going to find his body in a couple of days...", and when he was in fact found two days later the woman suddenly "remembered" him predicting it to the exact date. Was the "crazy" ever connected to the party and/or "Susan"? If so, that may explain why he would be able to predict when Kurt would have been found.

As for the "investigation" into this case, did the cops ever even question "Susan"? Seems to me like this case held little importance in their minds and they simply chalked it up to just another teenager doing something stupid and dying because of it. And I can't recall whether or not the autopsy actually was able to determine a cause of death, was there one ever found? And what do you think of the possible connection to Eugene Kvet? Coincidence? I wish I knew more about the Eugene Kvet case to make a judgement but I can't seem to find anything.
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Old 10-25-2011, 01:43 AM   #229
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Perhaps this is a little unusual connection to make, but the relatively recent death of Amy Winehouse got me thinking about Kurt Sova.

Many initially believed that Winehouse died of a drug or alcohol overdose, but later the toxicology reports from her autopsy indicated no illegal substances whatsoever were found in her system. Alcohol was found, but whether it played a role in her death is yet undetermined.

And so the same with Kurt Sova--no illegal substances, and a certain amount of alcohol in his system. It is rather macabre to say, but I wonder if further revelations about the cause of Amy Winehouse's death might provide any insight into what might have happened to Kurt.
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Old 10-25-2011, 09:22 AM   #230
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The only 3 known names at the party (Samuel C. Carroll, Debbie Sams, and Clayton Sams) are who we need to get to talk and unload the truth to get this solved, assuming they are all still alive.
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Old 10-25-2011, 11:31 AM   #231
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheCars1986
For all we know the "crazy" could have said, "They're going to find his body in a couple of days...", and when he was in fact found two days later the woman suddenly "remembered" him predicting it to the exact date. Was the "crazy" ever connected to the party and/or "Susan"? If so, that may explain why he would be able to predict when Kurt would have been found.

As for the "investigation" into this case, did the cops ever even question "Susan"? Seems to me like this case held little importance in their minds and they simply chalked it up to just another teenager doing something stupid and dying because of it. And I can't recall whether or not the autopsy actually was able to determine a cause of death, was there one ever found? And what do you think of the possible connection to Eugene Kvet? Coincidence? I wish I knew more about the Eugene Kvet case to make a judgement but I can't seem to find anything.
I have some things to say, but let me watch the segment again so I can back up my opinions with verifiable facts.
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Old 10-26-2011, 01:22 AM   #232
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Thanks to TracyLynnS for introducing me to Bing Maps. There's a feature on it that lets you see a bird's eye view of any location you want. So this was the perfect thing to use to see all the areas of interest for the Kurt Sova case in one picture. I had to angle the picture looking at everything from the back in order to fit it all in one shot.

In the upper right hand corner, I labeled and circled the duplex.

J.L. Goodman Furniture and the ravine where Kurt's body was found are also labeled. Finally, to the far left of the picture, you'll see a street called Washington Park Blvd. That is where Angeline Reddicks looked out the window of her house and saw 2 males carrying an unconscious teenage boy into the ravine the day before Kurt's body was found. That's certainly a strange and long route to take to dump the body in the ravine. And it's in plain sight of so many homes.


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Old 10-26-2011, 08:24 AM   #233
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awesome, thanks for the view from above

maybe the Reddicks' house is one of those houses that's directly in front of the ravine (ie the ravine is basically their extended backyard)

as far as the guys carrying his body, I'm guessing they weren't/aren't the brightest bulbs around (except for the part where they and no else has confessed to authorities as to what happened to him UP TO THIS VERY DAY) and maybe they couldn't immediately decide where they wanted to put him
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Old 10-26-2011, 09:34 AM   #234
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MegtheEgg86
Perhaps this is a little unusual connection to make, but the relatively recent death of Amy Winehouse got me thinking about Kurt Sova.

Many initially believed that Winehouse died of a drug or alcohol overdose, but later the toxicology reports from her autopsy indicated no illegal substances whatsoever were found in her system. Alcohol was found, but whether it played a role in her death is yet undetermined.

And so the same with Kurt Sova--no illegal substances, and a certain amount of alcohol in his system. It is rather macabre to say, but I wonder if further revelations about the cause of Amy Winehouse's death might provide any insight into what might have happened to Kurt.
And not too long after you type this, the official coroner's inquest comes out that says Amy Winehouse died from consuming too much alcohol, over five times the legal drunk-driving limit.

Obviously, Winehouse's body was more conditioned to handle large amounts of alcohol, but a 17-year old kid like Kurt Sova probably wasn't used to a strong substance like Everclear and could have easily died after consuming much more than he could handle.
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Old 10-26-2011, 10:16 AM   #235
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This is a case I would love to see from beginning to end on the original UM show. There are so many theories out there and I am from the school of "teen drank too much and other teens got scared and panicked" as what really happened to him but I would need the whole episode again to be sure.

His mom was so hearbroken.
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Old 10-26-2011, 10:38 AM   #236
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MegtheEgg86
Perhaps this is a little unusual connection to make, but the relatively recent death of Amy Winehouse got me thinking about Kurt Sova.

Many initially believed that Winehouse died of a drug or alcohol overdose, but later the toxicology reports from her autopsy indicated no illegal substances whatsoever were found in her system. Alcohol was found, but whether it played a role in her death is yet undetermined.

Since you brought it up. . .



Coroner: Amy Winehouse died after drinking too much alcohol
The Associated Press

LONDON – Amy Winehouse died as the unintended consequence of drinking too much alcohol, a British coroner ruled Wednesday.

Coroner Suzanne Greenaway gave a verdict of "death by misadventure," saying the singer died of accidental alcohol poisoning. "The unintended consequence of such potentially fatal levels (of alcohol) was her sudden and unexpected death," Greenaway said.

The singer, who had fought drug and alcohol problems for years, was found dead in bed at her London home on July 23 at age 27. An initial autopsy proved inconclusive, although it found no traces of illegal drugs in her system.

Pathologist Suhail Baithun told the inquest into the singer's death that Winehouse had consumed a "very large quantity of alcohol" — the level in her blood put her more than five times over the legal drunk-driving limit.

Police Detective Inspector Les Newman, who was called after a security guard found Winehouse, said empty vodka bottles were scattered around her bedroom.

Winehouse's doctor, Dr. Christina Romete, said the singer had resumed drinking in the days before her death after a period of abstinence.

Romete, who saw Winehouse the night before she died, said the singer was "tipsy but calm." She said Winehouse had not spoken of suicide, and talked about her upcoming birthday.

Romete said Winehouse had been prescribed drugs including the sedative Librium to help her cope with the symptoms of alcohol withdrawal, but the coroner said these had played no role in her death.

Winehouse family spokesman Chris Goodman said it was a relief to the family "to finally find out what happened to Amy."

"The court heard that Amy was battling hard to conquer her problems with alcohol and it is a source of great pain to us that she could not win in time," he said.
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Old 10-26-2011, 10:38 AM   #237
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve W.
awesome, thanks for the view from above

maybe the Reddicks' house is one of those houses that's directly in front of the ravine (ie the ravine is basically their extended backyard)

as far as the guys carrying his body, I'm guessing they weren't/aren't the brightest bulbs around (except for the part where they and no else has confessed to authorities as to what happened to him UP TO THIS VERY DAY) and maybe they couldn't immediately decide where they wanted to put him
I have no doubt they weren't the brightest bulbs around. And honestly, nobody is going to be thinking straight if they are disposing a body. But they had a couple days to decide what to do. So they must have known where they were going to dump the body when they left the duplex.

Here's the part of the article where Reddicks sighting comes in to play...

Newburgh Heights police never talked with Angeline Reddicks, either. She says she saw two males dragging what appeared to be an unconscious teenage boy toward the ravine where Kurt's body later was found.

"I seen them taking a boy down the alley. It was just before Halloween," said Reddicks, who said she witnessed the scene one afternoon from a window in her house on Washington Park Blvd. "One foot was barefoot. I'm almost sure it was the right one. I figured: 'Couple teenagers with a couple beers too many and they're probably trying to sober up.'

A few days later, Reddicks learned that Kurt's body had been found in the ravine. But she said she never told police what she saw because her husband told her, "You know, Mom, we gotta mind our business."


What truly floors me about that part of the article is that Reddicks' sighting of the two boys dragging Kurt's body to the ravine happened in the afternoon. You would think after all the lying and covering up these people did, they would have at least taken Kurt's body to the ravine after midnight when it's far less likely they would have been seen. But they chose to do it in the middle of the day, walking past a block of homes even.

Maybe if Reddicks had been shown a picture of Samuel Carroll in 1981, she would have recognized him as one of the two males carrying Kurt's body to the ravine. I still don't believe his story of leaving a drunk Kurt on the fence, only to have him magically vanish during the 1 to 2 minutes he was inside getting Kurt's jacket.
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Old 10-26-2011, 11:52 AM   #238
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"What truly floors me about that part of the article is that Reddicks' sighting of the two boys dragging Kurt's body to the ravine happened in the afternoon. You would think after all the lying and covering up these people did, they would have at least taken Kurt's body to the ravine after midnight when it's far less likely they would have been seen. But they chose to do it in the middle of the day, walking past a block of homes even.

Maybe if Reddicks had been shown a picture of Samuel Carroll in 1981, she would have recognized him as one of the two males carrying Kurt's body to the ravine. I still don't believe his story of leaving a drunk Kurt on the fence, only to have him magically vanish during the 1 to 2 minutes he was inside getting Kurt's jacket."

agreed

Man, this is one of those cases where after learning more and more details, it seems like such a, "oh come on! interrogate those guys and the girl at the duplex and you'll eventually find out what happened to him" but:

a different time period, where even though it was before my time, I can tell it was a generally more naive time period where people didn't usually think the worst of others or of certain situations + crappy little police department (Newburgh Heights) refusing to give the case to Cleveland Police Department for quite some time, has their own problems with drugs, corruption, and violence and lacking anyone with real professionalism in their job at that time = never getting the answers we want up to this point, 30 years later.
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Old 10-26-2011, 02:55 PM   #239
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I cannot fathom why the investigating PD would not question ONE SINGLE PERSON from the place Kurt was last seen alive. Especially the heir of mystery surrounding his death. It was listed as "probable accidental", but that does not mean he wasn't murdered. This case could have been solved with even the most rudimentary of police work, IMHO. A search of "Susan's" house, questioning Kurt's friend more extensively, questioning the other people at the party, finding the "crazy from Detroit" after Kurt's body was found, etc. All of this should have been done and I think the case would have been solved. Not saying that his death wasn't accidental, but like Kurt's mother said, she still wanted to know what happened and who put his body there.

I do find it odd that the "crazy from Detroit" claimed to have stolen the shoes off of corpses before. If this is true, it's possible that he simply stumbled upon Kurt's corpse and for his own crazy purpose decided to take his shoe. This would explain how he knew Kurt was already dead. We only have the word of Kurt's father to go on in terms of whether or not his body was in the ravine in the days before it was found. He may have missed him, maybe not. I also find it odd that the autopsy lists no alcohol in his system other than a BAC of .011 when the newspaper article clearly says he was drinking all day long. I do find it interesting that the UM segment mentioned Kurt's size and how he wouldn't be able to handle his alcohol. If he were drinking all day, especially Everclear, I think he may have drank himself into a "coma" and he died days later. But the only way we'll know for sure is if someone gets "Susan" to open up.

I do think that Kurt's friend, the one who propped him up against a fence, is telling the truth. The article gave more insight into what happened when he and Kurt went outside. He says they were out there for nearly 30 minutes, and then when he went to retrieve the coat and came back 2 minutes later Kurt was gone. UM makes no mention that his friend searched down the street and in the nearby furniture store parking lot. After not finding Kurt he assumed he went home, which is a reasonable enough assumption IMO. I've been to several BBQ's/parties were people were drinking where they simply "vanished", when it turned out they got too tired (and too drunk to drive) so they walked home. And if his friend was under the impression that he went home, he would have no reason to suspect that he was missing or anything was wrong. Which goes back to my point about his father missing him in the ravine. Let's say Kurt attempted to walk home after his friend went to retrieve the jackets and he made it as far to the ravine before passing out/blacking out. He eventually died there from something unknown (possibly involving the alcohol, possible exposure, anything is possible) and his body was just missed for the 5 days he was "missing". I don't really think Kurt's friend who claims to have seen him hitching a ride with "Franco" actually saw Kurt. I think it was a mistake. By his friend's account, he saw Kurt on a Monday, three days after he was last seen. He obviously didn't run away since he was still a mile or two away from his home, so why wouldn't he check in with his parents to let them know he was ok if he were truely alive at that point? Very bizarre case.
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Old 10-26-2011, 04:06 PM   #240
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Quote:
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Which goes back to my point about his father missing him in the ravine. Let's say Kurt attempted to walk home after his friend went to retrieve the jackets and he made it as far to the ravine before passing out/blacking out. He eventually died there from something unknown (possibly involving the alcohol, possible exposure, anything is possible) and his body was just missed for the 5 days he was "missing".
I always pondered that possibility until I saw that satellite photo from earlier in the thread that shows how heavily populated the area was that surrounded the ravine. It's hard to imagine it would have been five full days before someone noticed the body. Even the area wasn't as heavily populated back in 1981, the ravine doesn't look that big to begin with so I doubt Kurt's father could have searched through it the first time without coming across the body.
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