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Old 01-30-2015, 03:33 PM   #136
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I was actually over here singing a song from The Princess Diaries, which my daughter LOVES. "Miracles happen once in a while... when you believe."
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Old 01-30-2015, 06:00 PM   #137
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I'm surprised UM even took this case. Nothing to suggest murder outside of a couple of the most amateurish tests/recreations I've ever seen. I think it's pretty telling the Mossors seemed more interested in shedding what they believed was the shame of having their daughter's death labeled a suicide than going after the "killer".
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Old 01-30-2015, 10:20 PM   #138
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Originally Posted by wiseguy182
I'm surprised UM even took this case. Nothing to suggest murder outside of a couple of the most amateurish tests/recreations I've ever seen. I think it's pretty telling the Mossors seemed more interested in shedding what they believed was the shame of having their daughter's death labeled a suicide than going after the "killer".
This is actually a very good point.

Usually on UM's murder vs. suicide segments, they give alternate scenarios and suspects to support the murder theory. Outside of some subtle hints about the boyfriend, this segment features none. Even when UM can't publically name a suspect or person of interest (due to fear of a lawsuit), they still present that as a possibility. Like Tony Lombardi for example: UM played up the fact that he was seeing someone involved with someone else and that he was threatened. You get none of this from Rae Ann's segment. Not a word was mentioned about the boyfriend. I wonder if the boyfriend had moved on and this is what sent Rae Ann into a frenzy.
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Old 05-06-2015, 04:06 AM   #139
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Not sure if this has been mentioned yet, but the strongest evidence leaning towards a suicide is the victim's own words. I fully believe that she said what she was quoted as having been said, however in my mind it's hard to really quantify the context under which that statement was made. If there's any truth in what that JohnieP1981 (sp) poster was saying, it could've been she may have said that to appease this ex-boyfriend. I really wanted to see that test done where they determine how much weight is required to be placed on a trigger before there's discharge. I also wanted to see a re-enactment of the supposed suicide. This would remove doubts as to whether the discharge was accidental, and also as to whether or not Ms. Mossor could've killed herself.

If we're to assume that the shotgun didn't have a hair trigger, and assume Ms. Mossor was the last and only person to touch that gun when she was alive and until LE touched it, than I trouble believing it was a suicide. The questions that could determine what happened are:

- Again, how much weight was required to active the trigger? If it took quite a bit of pressure, then it's safe to say the gun wasn't fired accidentally
- How far away was the gun when it was discharged?
- How much time passed from when Rae Ann's supposed suicide words, to the actual gunshot?
- Is it scientifically possible for Rae Ann's body to be where it was (I believe she was parallel w/ the automobile, w/ her feet facing the direction towards the front of the car), and the gun to be where it was, w/o any tampering? Where her shoes found on her feet? It seems virtually impossible for her to have fired that shotgun w/ her hands, into her chest, and to have landed in the position she was found in, and the gun to be perfectly parallel along the trunk
-Neighbors apparently heard Ms. Mossor's suicide threat. Well, was that the only thing that was heard from the argument? How much did they hear?

I did find the fact it said I think the car or radio was found running was a little suspicious, but that call on either side of the fence. The only thing I find that would suggest it was a suicide, and that has me torn, is how did the bf (saying he shot her) get so close enough to shoot her in the chest? I'm trying to envision how that could happen, and my mind draws blank.

EDIT: Also wanted to add that, I think the segment said this happened pretty late at night. If someone's asleep, and they hear a shotgun go off, if they're not expecting to hear a shotgun, it could've easily been mistaken for something else
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Old 05-06-2015, 05:43 AM   #140
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Yeah, I gotta say I'm really not buying the accidental shooting, that seems even more unlikely than suicide imo. Unless this is some hair-triggered shotgun, you don't just accidentally happen to pull a trigger, and just happen to also be stupid enough to pull the trigger of a presumably loaded weapon that's pointed at someone you care about. I mean think about it, even if there was some struggle to pry the weapon away from someone, it takes an almost deliberate effort to wrap a finger around the trigger, I mean the trigger guard's there for a reason! And I really have to imagine a gun that big would require a considerable amount of pressure to be applied to the trigger for it to go off. Not to mention there's plenty of places on a gun that big to grab, in lieu of somehow foregoing the trigger guard and pulling pretty hard.

I can't remember the episode off the top of my head, but was there proof that Ms. Mossor was the owner or was the one in possession of the weapon?
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Old 05-06-2015, 05:52 AM   #141
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wiseguy182 It's also important to note that the newspaper article says she was found [I
behind[/I] the parked car. But seeing that she was found behind the parked car, that pretty much dispels that.
One thing I do remember is the gun being horizontally parallel with the trunk/hood. You say it says she's behind the vehicle, okay, so if the gun's in this position, and she's behind the vehicle, how does she end up from being in front of the muzzle, all the way to in front of the trunk, let alone the shotgun also being in what appears to be a perfect 180 degree angle?
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Old 05-07-2015, 02:56 AM   #142
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Originally Posted by Outloud
EDIT: Also wanted to add that, I think the segment said this happened pretty late at night. If someone's asleep, and they hear a shotgun go off, if they're not expecting to hear a shotgun, it could've easily been mistaken for something else
This happened before 8 p.m., so it was early in the evening. I doubt many if any people in the neighborhood were asleep at that point.

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Originally Posted by Outloud
Yeah, I gotta say I'm really not buying the accidental shooting, that seems even more unlikely than suicide imo. Unless this is some hair-triggered shotgun, you don't just accidentally happen to pull a trigger, and just happen to also be stupid enough to pull the trigger of a presumably loaded weapon that's pointed at someone you care about. I mean think about it, even if there was some struggle to pry the weapon away from someone, it takes an almost deliberate effort to wrap a finger around the trigger, I mean the trigger guard's there for a reason! And I really have to imagine a gun that big would require a considerable amount of pressure to be applied to the trigger for it to go off. Not to mention there's plenty of places on a gun that big to grab, in lieu of somehow foregoing the trigger guard and pulling pretty hard.
Guns discharge accidentally sometimes. There have even been cases where they have went off when nobody's hand was even on the weapon. UM has aired at least one such case.

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I can't remember the episode off the top of my head, but was there proof that Ms. Mossor was the owner or was the one in possession of the weapon?
Segment didn't specify.
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Old 05-07-2015, 08:45 AM   #143
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I mentioned this in another post, but one circumstance in which a negligent discharge with a shotgun often happens is when someone is engaging the trigger while loading a shell into the chamber. That sounds like a pretty no-brainer thing to avoid doing, but people sometimes do it. Of course, Rae Ann couldn't have killed herself this way, but it might explain what happened on the other end.
I posted this some pages back, and I still think it's a good explanation for a negligent discharge. And again, we know absolutely nothing about the shotgun.

The reason that firearms expert banged the weapon on the ground is because shotguns--especially older shotguns--do not usually have drop safety mechanisms as pistols do:

http://monderno.com/training/acciden...arge-question/

Like the author, I too take issue with that oft-reported line "the gun accidentally went off". There is someone or something on the operative end of the firearm to cause it to discharge. Unless that loaded firearm is in the middle of a raging inferno, it will not discharge on its own (and even then, that's "cooking off" rounds, when isn't even really the same thing as mechanically discharging the weapon). They don't work like that.

ETA: Highlighting this portion of the article--

Quote:
Also, most common sporting shotguns like the Remington and Mossberg pump action shotguns are not drop safe. They have no internal firing pin block, but only a simple trigger block safety. This can result in an inertia discharge of the gun if dropped or struck directly on the buttstock with a large enough force. One of the most common hunting accidents is a shotgun being dropped butt first from a tree stand and discharging as it hits the ground, thus wounding the hunter above.
In other words, the butt test appears to be an actual "thing".
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Old 05-07-2015, 03:24 PM   #144
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Okay, let's bring some numbers into this. Now these numbers are from 5 years ago, and barring some large statistical anomaly, I believe these numbers and percentages are a good rough, accurate reflection of year-to-year accidental shootings.
http://library.med.utah.edu/WebPath/...S/GUNSTAT.html

There were 31,513 deaths reportedly caused by a firearm. 600 of those were accidental. If we do the math, that comes out to a less than 2% probability that Rae Ann was killed from an accidental discharge. Keep in mind the volume we have here, so even if you somehow believe that the year Rae Ann was killed (1987? can't remember) just so happened to be a high statiscal deviance from the norm, it's not going to be a huge difference percentage-wise, I'd say 5% at the very highest, and that's being generous.

So we have a 2-5% chance that Rae Ann died from an accidental discharge. To put this in perspective, this is about the equivalent of the Knicks winning the championship next year, an NCAA senior being drafted to the NFL, or the same chance of randomly meeting someone that has B- blood type. The gun didn't accidentally discharge from being dropped (it wouldn't be on the trunk), nor would Ms. Mossor have been holding that huge fn gun with the muzzle pointed at her chest when it accidentally went off (who holds a gun like that?). So the only way the gun would've "accidentally" went off, is for a 2nd party to have somehow forgone the trigger guard, and somehow also pulled the trigger with almost deliberate force, "accidentally". If anyone truly believes that this was an accidental shooting, I have some beachfront property in Montana I'd like to show you
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Old 05-07-2015, 03:33 PM   #145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Outloud
The gun didn't accidentally discharge from being dropped (it wouldn't be on the trunk), nor would Ms. Mossor have been holding that huge fn gun with the muzzle pointed at her chest when it accidentally went off (who holds a gun like that?).
Totally agree with you.

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So the only way the gun would've "accidentally" went off, is for a 2nd party to have somehow forgone the trigger guard, and somehow also pulled the trigger with almost deliberate force, "accidentally". If anyone truly believes that this was an accidental shooting, I have some beachfront property in Montana I'd like to show you
This is the precise conclusion I've come to.
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Old 05-07-2015, 08:10 PM   #146
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I had this long, detailed post outlined w/links that was to deliver a larger sample size, however I was logged off due to inactivity. Pretty much, I had the years from 2005-2011, and even 1991, just five years removed from the crime, and the highest probable percentage of being accidentally killed by a firearm, was 5%. The statistical deviance between 2005-2011 was well under 1%, and the 5% probability I came up with for 1991, I used the number of accidental shoothings reported from 2010 (31513). And gun control safety only has increased yearly in the 21st Century. Keep in mind accidental firearm-related fatalities has decreased by 58% in this twenty-year gap, so it's definitely safe to assume the number of accidental shootings in 1991 was much higher than 31,513.

So with ever-yearly increasing gun control safety and consciousness since the boom of the internet, this case preceding this technological era, and there being such an insignificant difference in the 5-year span listed above, I don't see the extremely generous 5% accidental death rate in 1991 being all too different from 1986

Keep in mind, as of 2013, there's a half-percent chance (0.5) of being accidentally killed by a gun

EDIT: Just realized I could extrapolate the data here. If we were to multiply the 58% decrease in accidental fatal shootings in 2010(31,513) by .58, and divide 1441 by this, this comes out to almost 3%. So a little less than 3% chance of being killed accidentally by a firearm in 1991, and probaly no higher than 5% in 1986

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Old 05-07-2015, 11:52 PM   #147
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Outloud
Okay, let's bring some numbers into this. Now these numbers are from 5 years ago, and barring some large statistical anomaly, I believe these numbers and percentages are a good rough, accurate reflection of year-to-year accidental shootings.
http://library.med.utah.edu/WebPath/...S/GUNSTAT.html

There were 31,513 deaths reportedly caused by a firearm. 600 of those were accidental. If we do the math, that comes out to a less than 2% probability that Rae Ann was killed from an accidental discharge. Keep in mind the volume we have here, so even if you somehow believe that the year Rae Ann was killed (1987? can't remember) just so happened to be a high statiscal deviance from the norm, it's not going to be a huge difference percentage-wise, I'd say 5% at the very highest, and that's being generous.

So we have a 2-5% chance that Rae Ann died from an accidental discharge. To put this in perspective, this is about the equivalent of the Knicks winning the championship next year, an NCAA senior being drafted to the NFL, or the same chance of randomly meeting someone that has B- blood type. The gun didn't accidentally discharge from being dropped (it wouldn't be on the trunk), nor would Ms. Mossor have been holding that huge fn gun with the muzzle pointed at her chest when it accidentally went off (who holds a gun like that?). So the only way the gun would've "accidentally" went off, is for a 2nd party to have somehow forgone the trigger guard, and somehow also pulled the trigger with almost deliberate force, "accidentally". If anyone truly believes that this was an accidental shooting, I have some beachfront property in Montana I'd like to show you
This is similar to the "test" the "expert" performed on the segment by banging the gun on the ground. A gun can be dropped and not discharge, say 19 times, but might go off on the 20th. Perhaps this was that time?

It's impossible to say with 100% certainty the gun wouldn't have gone off at that time. Plus we don't know the way she was handling it, how it hit the car, etc.
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Old 05-08-2015, 12:17 AM   #148
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^^ If the weapon somehow accidentally discharged on her with her being the primary person to handle it, how would it have ended up flush on the trunk/hood?
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Old 08-11-2016, 11:46 AM   #149
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This case is just odd. The measurements of the arms vs the length of the gun and things of the nature do not have to make sense. If she only has access to a shotgun and she is dead set on killing herself, then she will find a way to get that gun to fire and kill herself. It doesn't have to make sense.

I think she probably had a discussion with her boyfriend and he indicated he was moving on or maybe had interest in someone else and she just broke down. Sadly, this happens a lot.
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Old 08-15-2016, 07:09 AM   #150
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Originally Posted by Hambone2421
This case is just odd. The measurements of the arms vs the length of the gun and things of the nature do not have to make sense. If she only has access to a shotgun and she is dead set on killing herself, then she will find a way to get that gun to fire and kill herself. It doesn't have to make sense.
Good point.

And IIRC, did they even know the exact measurements of Rae Ann's arms for comparison? Or were they just guessing based off of how tall she was?
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