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Old 02-03-2010, 06:52 PM   #121
mwcarolina
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[QUOTE=Mastermind]If everyone that had a lousy job and lived at home was clinically depressed there would be a lot more suicides in the world. [/QUOTE=Mastermind]

I don;t see how his job position and the fact that he lives at home matters here.

I agree with you, i don't see how a job position and the fact he lives at home determines a suicidal factor, i know people who live at home with their parents and enjoy it because of no big bills to pay. I say murder because of all the bumps and bruises he had, the gash and of course the watch and people keep bashing the mom on the nude thing, remember mom's usually know a lot about their kids.
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Old 02-03-2010, 07:14 PM   #122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by peachysquirt21
I think it's uncalled for you to be calling him a loser just cause of his job & him living at home still. You have no proof whatsoever that he was unhappy with his job & depressed.
Well, the proof is that, IMO (and far more important, the opinion of every law enforcement and legal body in the jurisdiction) he committed suicide.

On a less flippant note, you're right, but that was my point - a harsh, post-factual analysis as to he would have killed himself, which is the counter-argument to "he wouldn't kill himself over a DUI," put simply, the man had reasons to be depressed. Does it mean he killed himself? Not by itself, of course, but it's the necessary counter-argument to the mother's rosy picture of a happy-go-lucky philanderer.
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Old 02-03-2010, 07:24 PM   #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mastermind
If everyone that had a lousy job and lived at home was clinically depressed there would be a lot more suicides in the world.

I don;t see how his job position and the fact that he lives at home matters here.

Hell, Kurt Cobain committed suicide and he had a life most of us would die for.
You don't? It clearly matters as the potential reasons for suicide. Don't misunderstand me, I'm not suggesting it's GOOD reasons for suicide (can't say there are any of those, frankly), but I've known multiple people who've attempted suicide for exactly the same reason, i.e., one's cosmology is shaken, which makes them question their life and brings them to suicide. From an outsider perspective, these people had "lots to live for" and only minor problems, but that's all it can be take for those of fragile states (and behaviors such as womanizing and alcohol abuse are often are masks for fragile emotional states).

The Kurt Cobain example is actually a good one, if not for the reasons you probably meant - he was full of self-loathing for what most normal people would consider rampant success (and some people think he was murdered too).
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Old 02-03-2010, 07:51 PM   #124
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I totally agree. I don't think his situation is a terrible situation worhty of suicide (what is except horrible diseases and even then) but I also think it's not that positive and I wouldn't be surprised about it. It's definitely far from the "living life" thing a lot of people have given as reason of what it was a murder. Especially after the video that UM showed as proof about how happy he was.
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Old 02-04-2010, 01:12 PM   #125
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You don't? It clearly matters as the potential reasons for suicide.
In my experience there really mozart.

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The Kurt Cobain example is actually a good one, if not for the reasons you probably meant - he was full of self-loathing for what most normal people would consider rampant success (and some people think he was murdered too).
Actually the point I was making was that Kurt Cobain had money lived in his own house and had his own freedom AND still had the potential dark mood to kill himself.

Kurt Cobains living arrangements had nothing to do with whether he would commit suicide.

You insinuated that the fact that Tony was living at home at such an age was a sign that he would be suicidal. Yet Tony could have had a rosy outlook on life contrary to Kurt Cobain.


You equated living at home=loser. Yet in your very own words. Kurt Cobain viewed himself as a loser.

A rich man is just as likely to committ suicide as a poor man.


When determining circumstantial evidence for suicide the things you tend to look for are:
1. Prior suicide attempts.
2. Fears from relatives and friends that subject was depressed or might commit suicide.
3. Psychological visits or evidence from doctors
4. History of suicide or depression in family
5. Major inciting incident(s) (loss of job, serious illness, loss of loved one, pending arrest, financial ruin, public embarassment, flunking out of school. etc.etc.)


Do we have any of the above in this case? Is the DUI significant enough to be a major inciting incident for this suicide.
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Old 02-04-2010, 08:11 PM   #126
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Hmm, I am inclined to agree. Personally I found the comments on the reasons why Tony committed suicide to be disgraceful. I am 25 years old and live with my parents due to various twists and turns in my life. Does that make me some loser too that is going to go and off himself tomorrow? No. That is absurd. I tend to believe Tony Lombardi did not kill himself but even if he did I will say it is not for the ridiculous reasons you insinuated. He was a 22 year old young man that enjoyed partying and the ladies, hardly unusual. He never did go to college and he worked at a factory, not unusual even now let alone back in 1990. He got a DUI, again for a young man that likes to party, not unusual. If he did kill himself it was not for any of these reasons there was something deeper there. I think part of the problem here is people have a tendency to treat people that are considering or do commit suicide as rational people when they are clearly irrational because if you think death is the only way out of your troubles or that is looking good to you than clearly you are not rational. Again, you may be right that Tony Lombardi committed suicide but if he did, the reasoning goes deeper than just getting arrested for drunk driving or living at home and working at a factory. People might attempt suicide in crap like that but it is more to draw attention to themselves because they want help but do not know how to go about it. I have been arrested and convicted of drunk driving myself. While I was angry that I got busted and later depressed it was never anywhere near severe enough I would off myself over it.
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Old 02-04-2010, 11:22 PM   #127
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Originally Posted by kadrmas15
Hmm, I am inclined to agree. Personally I found the comments on the reasons why Tony committed suicide to be disgraceful. I am 25 years old and live with my parents due to various twists and turns in my life. Does that make me some loser too that is going to go and off himself tomorrow? No. That is absurd. I tend to believe Tony Lombardi did not kill himself but even if he did I will say it is not for the ridiculous reasons you insinuated. He was a 22 year old young man that enjoyed partying and the ladies, hardly unusual. He never did go to college and he worked at a factory, not unusual even now let alone back in 1990. He got a DUI, again for a young man that likes to party, not unusual. If he did kill himself it was not for any of these reasons there was something deeper there. I think part of the problem here is people have a tendency to treat people that are considering or do commit suicide as rational people when they are clearly irrational because if you think death is the only way out of your troubles or that is looking good to you than clearly you are not rational. Again, you may be right that Tony Lombardi committed suicide but if he did, the reasoning goes deeper than just getting arrested for drunk driving or living at home and working at a factory. People might attempt suicide in crap like that but it is more to draw attention to themselves because they want help but do not know how to go about it. I have been arrested and convicted of drunk driving myself. While I was angry that I got busted and later depressed it was never anywhere near severe enough I would off myself over it.
I've been in the same boat too and at times it was depressing but at other times it doesn't matter at all. For some people it could be a whatever but it could also be depresing to some and I tend to believe that to a guy who appears to have commited suicide, it might be what pushed him. Just because you wouldn't, it doesn't mean he wouldn't. I think some people are projecting their lives to him in that way. I wouldn't think he was a loser but neither would have I think suicide is out of the question when the proof of him being lively was dubious. To me as opposed to other cases, the proof point more to suicide than anything.

The situation of him being murdered has a stranger entering his house, getting into a fight without leaving physical trace of him being there, shooting him with his gun and then waiting a couple of hours until his mom arrives and escaping after she was in her room. If he was caught in the act of having sex, then it's worse since what would have happened with the female subject? To me all that has bigger weight that the though it could have happened because some other people wouldn't do the same act if they were in their place or because somebody threatened him before.
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Old 02-05-2010, 01:40 AM   #128
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When determining circumstantial evidence for suicide the things you tend to look for are:
1. Prior suicide attempts.
2. Fears from relatives and friends that subject was depressed or might commit suicide.
3. Psychological visits or evidence from doctors
4. History of suicide or depression in family
5. Major inciting incident(s) (loss of job, serious illness, loss of loved one, pending arrest, financial ruin, public embarassment, flunking out of school. etc.etc.)

agreed, that is what we look at, i like numbers 1, 2 and 3. Now there are some cases where you don't need that, but it seems the police gave up too soon on this case.
Personally I found the comments on the reasons why Tony committed suicide to be disgraceful. I am 25 years old and live with my parents due to various twists and turns in my life. Does that make me some loser too that is going to go and off himself tomorrow? No.
See, you are 25 and live at home with your parents, but you are alive, you didn't kill yourself which proves that living with your parents doesn't make you depressed or want to kill yourselves, maybe they just don't want to live alone??
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Old 02-05-2010, 11:36 AM   #129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mwcarolina
See, you are 25 and live at home with your parents, but you are alive, you didn't kill yourself which proves that living with your parents doesn't make you depressed or want to kill yourselves, maybe they just don't want to live alone??
What? It doesn't prove anything at all? It would prove as much as much as if Tony Lombardi killed himself, that means that all young people living at home kill themselves. It makes no sense.
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Old 02-05-2010, 12:23 PM   #130
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Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by mwcarolina
See, you are 25 and live at home with your parents, but you are alive, you didn't kill yourself which proves that living with your parents doesn't make you depressed or want to kill yourselves, maybe they just don't want to live alone??

What? It doesn't prove anything at all? It would prove as much as much as if Tony Lombardi killed himself, that means that all young people living at home kill themselves. It makes no sense.

Being 25 and living at home is not really that uncommon nor unusual. If he was 30 or 40 you might make a case, but 25 is not that uncommon.

If Tony was able to live with his parents for that long without killing himself, apparently he was reasonably okay with the situation. Most people kill themselves because a situation becomes untolerable. You have to make me think that living with your parents while being 25 had become so untenable a situation for this guy at this point that he decides to off himself with a gun


BTW, technically if you really think about it, you can come up with any reason for someone to commit suicide. I could find any person dead in an alley and
come up with a reason why they might committ suicide. That doesn;t mean that they necessarily that it is a suicide. It is always easy to use insanity as as a motive in crimes. When probing the depths of insanity any and every theory becomes possible. That's why all other theories need to be eliminated before we come upon the ruling that this case is suicide.
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Old 02-05-2010, 01:15 PM   #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mastermind
Being 25 and living at home is not really that uncommon nor unusual. If he was 30 or 40 you might make a case, but 25 is not that uncommon.

If Tony was able to live with his parents for that long without killing himself, apparently he was reasonably okay with the situation. Most people kill themselves because a situation becomes untolerable. You have to make me think that living with your parents while being 25 had become so untenable a situation for this guy at this point that he decides to off himself with a gun


BTW, technically if you really think about it, you can come up with any reason for someone to commit suicide. I could find any person dead in an alley and
come up with a reason why they might committ suicide. That doesn;t mean that they necessarily that it is a suicide. It is always easy to use insanity as as a motive in crimes. When probing the depths of insanity any and every theory becomes possible. That's why all other theories need to be eliminated before we come upon the ruling that this case is suicide.
Tony wasn't 25. kadrmas15 is 25, Tony was 22.

And I don't really get your case about how they have to "make you think it was a suicide" or that anybody can make any reason for a suicide. If the guy commits suicide without leaving a note, then you will never know for sure what made the guy commit suicide. I don't really see the need to make something the motive so clear, when it's never going to be known and it's really doesn't take away from suicide. If a guy is alone in a room with his gun and ends up being shot, chances are it's a suicide or an accident and they don't have to go thru his possible motives to prove that.
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Old 02-05-2010, 01:46 PM   #132
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Tony wasn't 25. kadrmas15 is 25, Tony was 22.


He was only 22!!!!!?????

That makes my point even more relevant!!!!!!!

That's less than a year out of college for most people. If there were so many people upset at still living at home at age 22, we'd have suicides all over the place!
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Old 02-05-2010, 02:02 PM   #133
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If a guy is alone in a room with his gun and ends up being shot, chances are it's a suicide or an accident and they don't have to go thru his possible motives to prove that.
How do you know this proverbial guy is alone? Unless the room is a jail cell locked form the outside...he does have a door that can be opened and a house that can be entered in or someone can be let in through. That is by no means an open and shut suicide.

Suicide/murder/accident are never as clear as we make them out to be.

That is why murder has to be ruled out first. That is always the case in any unexplained death case. If you cannot rule out murder, then the case needs to be investigated as a murder. That's why police detectives are called in on any attempted suicide. Especially in a firearm suicide.

Quote:
And I don't really get your case about how they have to "make you think it was a suicide" or that anybody can make any reason for a suicide. If the guy commits suicide without leaving a note, then you will never know for sure what made the guy commit suicide. I don't really see the need to make something the motive so clear, when it's never going to be known and it's really doesn't take away from suicide.
Because if the 5 qualifications I mentioned before are not met, this case becomes less probable a suicide and more unexplained death.
1. Prior suicide attempts.
2. Fears from relatives and friends that subject was depressed or might commit suicide.
3. Psychological visits or evidence from doctors
4. History of suicide or depression in family
5. Major inciting incident(s) (loss of job, serious illness, loss of loved one, pending arrest, financial ruin, public embarassment, flunking out of school. etc.etc.)

From what I understand the only qualification we have is #5. Which the answer given was "he was still living at home and had a DUI". Neither which are life-altering situations. And if they were they would be dire situations to a mentally unstable person or someone with a history of instability...which we don't have here.

I buy this case more as an accident or possible homicide than as a suicide.
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Old 02-05-2010, 02:59 PM   #134
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I know this thread makes ME want to commit suicide!
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Old 02-05-2010, 03:34 PM   #135
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What? It doesn't prove anything at all?
yes it does!!! it proves that the theory of being 22 and living at home with parents is NOT a factor in suicide, which is why i disagree with that, whoever said his living situation is a factor in suicide doesnt know people who live at home with their parents. It gives them cheaper room and board and to top it off, they won't be living alone.

That is why murder has to be ruled out first. That is always the case in any unexplained death case. If you cannot rule out murder, then the case needs to be investigated as a murder. That's why police detectives are called in on any attempted suicide.
I agree, the police ruled it suicide and left, they should've at least gave the possibility that is was a murder!!! there is evidence from both sides to suggest murder and suicide.

Because if the 5 qualifications I mentioned before are not met, this case becomes less probable a suicide and more unexplained death.
1. Prior suicide attempts.
2. Fears from relatives and friends that subject was depressed or might commit suicide.
3. Psychological visits or evidence from doctors
4. History of suicide or depression in family
5. Major inciting incident(s) (loss of job, serious illness, loss of loved one, pending arrest, financial ruin, public embarassment, flunking out of school. etc.etc.)

Like i said, i like these qualifications, in my book all don't have to be used for a person who committed suicide, but it makes the case of suicide stronger.

From what I understand the only qualification we have is #5. Which the answer given was "he was still living at home and had a DUI". Neither which are life-altering situations. And if they were they would be dire situations to a mentally unstable person or someone with a history of instability...which we don't have here.
That is true, the DUI to me was one factor, but who would kill themselves over that??? i wouldn't and i know other people who have DUIs but having committed suicide, now he COULD be different, but the fact is the police didn't seem to investigate this case at all.
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