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Old 01-07-2021, 02:45 AM   #46
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Just curious: has it ever been proven his ID was found in New York? From what I recall several years back someone from the area mentioned that. Do we know this to be truth?
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Old 01-07-2021, 09:44 AM   #47
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Just curious: has it ever been proven his ID was found in New York? From what I recall several years back someone from the area mentioned that. Do we know this to be truth?
Nope. Much like the "mysterious perfect cylindrical hole found drilled into Don Kemp's head", this tidbit about the ID being found in New York has not been found on any credible source to my knowledge. It sounds like an internet rumor that people have ran with as a fact. His wallet, with $140, was missing. But I always think back to the Jeffrey MacDonald case. An ambulance driver stole his wallet from the crime scene. Something similar could have happened with Norman and it would have nothing to do with foul play.
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Old 01-07-2021, 06:10 PM   #48
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I was watching this case yesterday.

This is a very sad case and I feel for the parents.

I do note that they seemingly initially believed it was an accident and that it was only after the coroner returned a suicide ruling that they really started to take a second look at the case.

As other posters have mentioned, UM doesn't go into the circumstances of Norman Ladner's life at the time and give any motive for a suicide. But, if it was a suicide, perhaps he kept whatever problems he had to himself. It's not unusual for people to bottle up the problems they are going through and not tell anyone, even their closest family members. There are a variety of reasons this could be the case -shame, not knowing how their family will react, just not being able to express what's wrong in words, not wanting to talk about the issue and so on. Perhaps that's what happened here.

Having said that, I do have a feeling that this death was probably accidental. I'm not sure how it could have happened, I am neither a firearms or forensic expert. But, even given that UM may not have given us all the details on this case, I just find it seems much more likely than either a suicide or a murder.

I have no doubt that the conversation between the mother and the stranger took place. However, I do think she may have misinterpreted what the guy was saying. People can be incredibly insensitive and say the most inappropriate things when talking to people who have just lost loved ones (believe me, I've been there), sometimes out of nervousness or trying to find the right thing to say and sometimes because of the nature of their personality and their approach to grief and death. Particularly when someone is going through the stages of such raw grief and emotion, it may be easy to misconstrue these types of comments as having some deeper meaning which wasn't intended.

His wallet turning up in New York, if true, isn't necessarily an indication of foul play. Sometimes things get pinched at crime scenes or in the mortuary/coroner's office or wherever else and end up being passed around or being discarded for some reason later in time.

I didn't think the UM segment was unduly biased in favour of the murder theory. If anything, I came away from it thinking it more likely to be the suicide or accident theory than any other scenario
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Old 04-23-2021, 09:38 PM   #49
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His wallet turning up in New York, if true, isn't necessarily an indication of foul play. Sometimes things get pinched at crime scenes or in the mortuary/coroner's office or wherever else and end up being passed around or being discarded for some reason later in time.
I don't doubt things get taken at crime scenes or in a morgue, but if the license indeed did end up in New York that's quite a trip from Mississippi!
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Old 04-24-2021, 08:46 AM   #50
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I love your medical analysis! You're obviously a health care professional and I'm obviously not, but everything I know about fatty liver stuff is right on the nose with what you said. (The Husband leans towards having one. He's not a big drinker, nor is he obese. He's been hit with the genetic stick and we asked a lot of questions to the doctor about it.)

Anyway, I digress. You're right that we know very little about Norman as a person, other than he was a "good kid." I would also like to know if he was a heavy drinker... because The Husband, who is in pretty good shape and not a drinker, was not given the "fatty liver" diagnosis until he was in his late 30's.

Meg, in your experience, do you typically see 17 year old kids with this diagnosis? Because I'm with you. If he was a heavy drinker, I absolutely would lean towards suicide or accident.

Good eye on the autopsy report!
I've worked in the medical field for over 20 years and I've never seen a diagnosis of fatty liver in a child that young...yes, he was still a child.

I still lean towards accident, however, this autopsy seems a bit incomplete.
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Old 04-25-2021, 02:30 AM   #51
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I've worked in the medical field for over 20 years and I've never seen a diagnosis of fatty liver in a child that young...yes, he was still a child.

I still lean towards accident, however, this autopsy seems a bit incomplete.
I don't know if you can trust anything on this autopsy report. Lets face it, the behavior of authorities is often disgusting. They could very well have tried to portray this kid as a drunk who shot himself to either not investigate a murder or cover something else. Everyone I've ever talked to from Mississippi says it has some of the most corrupt law enforcement in the country. See Andre Jones. And something about that sheriff who was interviewed on the segment made my skin crawl.

I even have to go back on something I said earlier, I made the point that the parents didn't try to argue Norman wasn't depressed. His father actually did try to make the argument.

It just seems like law enforcement officers often adopt this philosophy that if there is no proof of murder, then it must be suicide. When in fact it is really supposed to be the other way around. All deaths are supposed to be treated as homicides until proven otherwise, and I don't think this one was proven to be anything.
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Old 04-29-2021, 12:54 PM   #52
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It's been quite a while since I've seen the Ladner segment, but cases like this one always bother me. It always seems to me that the vague, shadowy "drug dealers/interrupted drug deal" is a favorite go to theory in cases like this...not unlike the "satanic panic" that seems to make an appearance every now and again. While I'm definitely aware that drugs are a dangerous business and that many people have lost their lives in connection to it, I'm just not convinced it's what happened in this case.

I'm also always bothered by cases like this that involve a possible murder of someone who was carrying a firearm. I know that it can and does happen, as proven in the Henry/Ives case, but there's always a part of me that has trouble reconciling the possible murder with the firearm (if that makes any sense).

Okay, so I just went back and watched the Ladner segment again. I have to agree with the posters up thread that this segment was particularly light on evidence, either for or against suicide. Part of me feels that had the coroner simply issued an undetermined or accidental ruling, that his parents would have accepted it in time and moved on with their lives. That said however, I can understand and sympathize with any family that has difficulty accepting the possible suicide of a loved one. Having had the experience in my own family recently, I can certainly relate, but that experience has also taught me that sometimes a loved one really does take their own life and finding the answers isn't always possible.

ETA: I would like to hear some of your theories about Ladner's broken gun. While it didn't seem to be mentioned in the UM segment, other sources have stated that Ladner's rifle was found at the scene either "broken in half" or "disassembled". So what...Ladner killed himself and THEN disassembled his rifle?? Or he shot himself with a rifle that had already been disassembled? I'm certainly not a firearms expert, but neither of those possibilities seem very likely to me. Hopefully someone who is better informed can offer an explanation.
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Old 04-29-2021, 06:16 PM   #53
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Just a couple more points I'd like to add. First, I realize my questions above about Ladner's rifle are based on the assumption that he was killed with that specific firearm in the first place. The reason I made that assumption was because there weren't any reports of a second firearm found at the scene.

Which brings me right into my second point. If LE was never able to recover the bullet that killed Ladner, how on Earth could they (LE) have positively concluded his death was a suicide?? I understand that the autopsy report cited a "close contact" or "point blank" GSW, but that fact by itself seems far too inconclusive to base a definitive ruling of suicide on IMO.
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Old 04-29-2021, 08:29 PM   #54
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Just a couple more points I'd like to add. First, I realize my questions above about Ladner's rifle are based on the assumption that he was killed with that specific firearm in the first place. The reason I made that assumption was because there weren't any reports of a second firearm found at the scene.

Which brings me right into my second point. If LE was never able to recover the bullet that killed Ladner, how on Earth could they (LE) have positively concluded his death was a suicide?? I understand that the autopsy report cited a "close contact" or "point blank" GSW, but that fact by itself seems far too inconclusive to base a definitive ruling of suicide on IMO.
This pretty much sums up why many rational people don't believe it was suicide. And the bullet the Ladners found later was allegedly right at the spot where the body was found. If that's not the bullet that killed him, that would be an amazing coincidence if a bullet was in the same spot and it just got there innocently somehow. Unless the Ladners are lying about where it came from. All you really have to do to prove it couldn't have been suicide in this case is to prove the bullet that killed Norman didn't come from his rifle, then case closed its murder. But it was never proven one way or another.

As for the rifle breaking, as someone who is familiar with rifles I can tell you they don't break easily. They certainly could not break falling onto soft ground, even falling onto concrete or pavement they would have to fall from a pretty good distance, and this was dirt in the woods.

The thing is, if Norman was killed by his own rifle, it would have to have been in tact obviously when he did so. meaning if it was the gun that killed him, it couldn't have been broken until after Norman died. So how did it get broken? If Norman committed suicide, the only possible way I could think of it getting broken is if it fell from the tree after he shot himself. And I can't see how the rifle could have broke falling onto dirt covered ground. Given this happened in a warm climate, I would imagine the soil was relatively soft. I don't know how tall the tree was, but it would have to have been a long fall for me to think the rifle was broken that way.

And furthermore, why would Norman climb up in the tree to commit suicide anyway? I could buy the idea that if Norman wanted to kill himself he might go back in the woods where he felt comfortable. But why bother climbing up in the tree? Unless he wanted people to think it was a deer hunting accident. But that seems far fetched too.

The more I think about this, the more I doubt it was suicide. I honestly don't believe people realize just how many corrupt pit vipers have been in our police departments. And the sheriff interviewed on the segment made my skin crawl.
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Old 04-30-2021, 01:16 AM   #55
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This pretty much sums up why many rational people don't believe it was suicide. And the bullet the Ladners found later was allegedly right at the spot where the body was found. If that's not the bullet that killed him, that would be an amazing coincidence if a bullet was in the same spot and it just got there innocently somehow. Unless the Ladners are lying about where it came from. All you really have to do to prove it couldn't have been suicide in this case is to prove the bullet that killed Norman didn't come from his rifle, then case closed its murder. But it was never proven one way or another.

As for the rifle breaking, as someone who is familiar with rifles I can tell you they don't break easily. They certainly could not break falling onto soft ground, even falling onto concrete or pavement they would have to fall from a pretty good distance, and this was dirt in the woods.

The thing is, if Norman was killed by his own rifle, it would have to have been in tact obviously when he did so. meaning if it was the gun that killed him, it couldn't have been broken until after Norman died. So how did it get broken? If Norman committed suicide, the only possible way I could think of it getting broken is if it fell from the tree after he shot himself. And I can't see how the rifle could have broke falling onto dirt covered ground. Given this happened in a warm climate, I would imagine the soil was relatively soft. I don't know how tall the tree was, but it would have to have been a long fall for me to think the rifle was broken that way.

And furthermore, why would Norman climb up in the tree to commit suicide anyway? I could buy the idea that if Norman wanted to kill himself he might go back in the woods where he felt comfortable. But why bother climbing up in the tree? Unless he wanted people to think it was a deer hunting accident. But that seems far fetched too.

The more I think about this, the more I doubt it was suicide. I honestly don't believe people realize just how many corrupt pit vipers have been in our police departments. And the sheriff interviewed on the segment made my skin crawl.
Yeah...got to say XC, that of all the troubling questions surrounding this case, the rifle issue is probably what bothers me the most. I don't really go in for any variation of the "tree theory", because the GSW was just too perfect IMO. I don't know if Ladner committed suicide or not...there just isn't enough information IMO to support ANY investigative finding.

What I DO know however, is that regardless of LE's official findings, there are still some serious and disturbing questions about this case that need to be answered. I kind of got the impression that LE was completely disinterested in this case right from the start. In fact one of the podcasts I listened to regarding the Ladner case made a point of stating that while the sheriff heading up the investigation was a real prince of a guy on paper, but if someone were to ask the town's residents, they'd paint an entirely different picture. Things that make you go "hmmm" I guess.
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Old 05-01-2021, 02:46 AM   #56
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Yeah...got to say XC, that of all the troubling questions surrounding this case, the rifle issue is probably what bothers me the most. I don't really go in for any variation of the "tree theory", because the GSW was just too perfect IMO. I don't know if Ladner committed suicide or not...there just isn't enough information IMO to support ANY investigative finding.

What I DO know however, is that regardless of LE's official findings, there are still some serious and disturbing questions about this case that need to be answered. I kind of got the impression that LE was completely disinterested in this case right from the start. In fact one of the podcasts I listened to regarding the Ladner case made a point of stating that while the sheriff heading up the investigation was a real prince of a guy on paper, but if someone were to ask the town's residents, they'd paint an entirely different picture. Things that make you go "hmmm" I guess.
I just re-watched the segment. I had to kind of force myself to listen to Sheriff Lumpkin again even though his whole attitude disgusted me.

It seems to me his main argument for suicide is the idea Norman was standing when the shot was fired. If that's the case then he obviously could not have been in the tree. How was he standing in the damn tree? So that begs the question again how the hell did the rifle break if it did not fall out of the tree? The rifle had to be in tact when Norman was shot regardless of who did it, that's basically indisputable. The only way it could have got broken other than falling from a decent height is if someone broke it by hitting it against something. Which means someone else had to be there, Norman obviously didn't break the thing after he was dead.

And second, its the proclamation there was no evidence anyone else was there besides Norman. Unless the killer dropped something, the only other sign someone would have been there that I can think of is footprints. I used to work in the woods all the time and worked a lot of places where I never left footprints. Usually if you leave footprints in the woods its because of muddy soil often found after a heavy rain. I didn't hear the segment say one way or another. So it begs the question, did they even find Norman's footprints around the scene? If they didn't, it renders the whole no evidence anyone else was there argument moot.

To be fair though, if Norman's footprints were there and no one else's, then I admit its pretty hard to argue for murder. And that's really the only thing I can think of in this case where LE should have even come close to ruling out murder. And i can't help but think Sheriff Lumpkin would have shouted that from the rooftops if that was the case. I'm betting it was grassy hard packed ground and there were no footprints at all.

The accident theory also never made sense to me. The idea Norman fell out of a tree and managed to shoot himself in the head, I honestly can't even see how that would have happened. Guns simply don't discharge as easy as many people think, and even if they do, I'd have to say the likelihood of Norman accidentally aligning this rifle with his head in the midst of a fall is pretty unlikely. If you fell from a tree with a rifle in your hands, you'd instinctively point the rifle away. Not towards you.

The more I think about it, the more I think Lumpkin and his cohorts abandoned the accident theory because they realized how absurd it was and adopted the suicide theory because even though it had holes it made more sense.

And with regards to the bullet that was found, again you have to consider two possibilities if this is not the bullet that killed Norman: The bullet got to the exact spot of Norman's death in some innocent way, or the Ladners are flat out lying about where they got it. Given that they were known to hunt on their land, I suppose its possible that this might be a stray bullet fired at a deer or a squirrel at some point. But on a 122 acre property and that it was found in the exact spot, again I'd have to say unlikely. As for the Ladners lying, I think the grief of losing a child could cause some uncharacteristic behavior in people. But to suggest they would be so determined to punish someone for Norman's death that they would fabricate evidence? Possible, but I'd hardly say likely.

I realize the drug angle is a pretty popular scapegoat for people who want to make a death more sinister than it is, so I don't really want to focus on that though anyone's thoughts are welcome. The devices Mr Ladner found may or may not have been significant, that's perhaps a discussion for another day I haven't given it much thought.

But the bottom line is, Sheriff Lumpkin's obvious determination to rule out foul play with no more arguments than he made for doing so should raise red flags with any reasonable person. Can't say definitively Norman did not commit suicide, but the facts in this case fall way short of what is necessary to call it a foregone conclusion IMHO. I'd have to say there is a 60-40 chance he did not.
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Old 05-02-2021, 10:31 PM   #57
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I believe this was a suicide.
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Old 05-03-2021, 04:10 PM   #58
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I've worked in the medical field for over 20 years and I've never seen a diagnosis of fatty liver in a child that young...yes, he was still a child.
I've only seen it a couple of times in teenagers and in both of those instances they were morbidly obese, which doesn't fit Norman's bill at all.
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Old 05-03-2021, 06:57 PM   #59
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I believe this was a suicide.
Very profound there Tolstoy.
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Old 05-03-2021, 07:28 PM   #60
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Very profound there Tolstoy.
Why, aren't you all sunshine and rainbows...

You asked "murder, accident or suicide?" You didn't ask us to write a thesis on the subject. I've got nothing to add to those who support the suicide theory. You want me to just repeat what they said?
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