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Old 09-20-2014, 09:19 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by isotope
As I understand, Berkowitz initially claimed sole responsibility - but in the mid 90s started claiming there were co-conspirators.

His claims on this topic are worthless though - he's clearly crazy.
No. Berkowitz began claiming the co-conspiracy in the early 80s, after Michael Carr's 1979 death.
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Old 09-21-2014, 12:32 AM   #17
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. With that being said if "he's clearly crazy" as you put it, why in the 30+ years of his incarceration he has never been moved to a state mental ward, diagnosed with some form of dementia, or some kind of psychological disorder?

Here's a guy who went around for a year shooting random strangers and thereafter wrote rambling incoherent letters to the paper regarding the above. He may not be legally "insane" ( which is a legal - not medical - term) but he is clearly a few sandwiches short of a picnic
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Old 09-21-2014, 12:35 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by MegtheEgg86
No. Berkowitz began claiming the co-conspiracy in the early 80s, after Michael Carr's 1979 death.

That'll teach me to trust wikipedia

I 'm pretty sure Berkowitz acted alone - but of all the conspiracy theories presented by UM over the years, this strikes me as the most plausible
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Old 09-21-2014, 04:01 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by isotope
Here's a guy who went around for a year shooting random strangers and thereafter wrote rambling incoherent letters to the paper regarding the above. He may not be legally "insane" ( which is a legal - not medical - term) but he is clearly a few sandwiches short of a picnic
Which is why I used the term diagnosed and not "observed" by an expert. 2 different things. A diagnoses can take several days to several years. 30+ years in a state prison or institution is plenty of time to accurately diagnose a person. You mean to tell me after all of this time in prison, all the statements through the years, all the retractions, subsequent reinstatement of said statements, no one has ever taken the trouble to properly diagnose Mr. Berkowitz with a form psychological disorder, pathological disorder, personality disorder, etc. and so forth in 30+ years?

I find that really hard to believe. Even if you take all of the inconsistencies of eyewitness statements and official police reports. Here's what I'll do isotope, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. Let's pretend Berkowitz is "a few sandwiches short of a picnic" as you say.

If he is that insane to make his credibility questionable on these statements of conspiracy and other gunman, what makes his own confession of being The Son of Sam killer that much more credible? You're questioning the credibility of his statements because he engaged in behavior that makes him look crazy. It makes zero sense to not throw into question his very own confession. While he was, according to you, "went around for a year shooting random strangers and thereafter wrote rambling incoherent letters to the paper regarding the above"
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Old 09-21-2014, 04:03 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by isotope
That'll teach me to trust wikipedia

I 'm pretty sure Berkowitz acted alone - but of all the conspiracy theories presented by UM over the years, this strikes me as the most plausible
The fact that the main detective who worked the case and main investigation, doesn't even believe Berkowitz did it alone is the driving force for me to look deeper into this case.
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Old 09-21-2014, 10:16 AM   #21
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Weren't most of the multiple gunmen theories etc from Maury Terry? His book is very good in an entertaining way but like many he is prone to make connections that just don't exist.

In the book he was saying that Roy Radin was murdered by the Son Of Sam Cult, a few years later it emerged he was murdered over a falling out he had with a dodgy character he had gotten involved with about the Cotton Club film.
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Old 09-21-2014, 11:11 AM   #22
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This is a question I have had for many years. Berkowitz never struck me has being intelligent enough to carry these out,he did not match all the sketches and even the detectives had there doubts he acted alone.
I really doubt he could have acted alone. I think it was him and the Carr bros. And when he started writing the letters they washed their hands of it knowing he was going to get arrested. And probably threatened him or his family for his silence in there part in the murders. Once they died he began to talk- dead men can't retaliate against him.
As to why they killings stopped after Berkowitz was arrested. The bros were probably waiting till the heat was down(son to speak) and they were going to start killing. But they themselves were killed several years later before they got the chance to kill again.
It is not unsual for serial killers to stop for periods of time. I have not read the books you cited but I am going to get them and read!
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Old 09-21-2014, 11:18 AM   #23
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Quote:
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Weren't most of the multiple gunmen theories etc from Maury Terry? His book is very good in an entertaining way but like many he is prone to make connections that just don't exist.
The multiple gunmen theories originated with a faction of NYPD officers and then-Queens D.A. John Santucci. Maury Terry simply relayed them in his book.

I do agree that there exist some pretty tenuous connections in that book in my estimation. However, the multiple gunmen theories were being tossed around long before Terry ever got to writing The Ultimate Evil, and the arena wasn't within the media or journalists, but among LEOs themselves.

In fact, the lone gunman theory was largely what the media was reporting and promoting heavily at the time of the investigation as well as during Berkowitz's arrest and trial. The crimes gripped and changed NYC profoundly. Understandably, the public greatly enjoyed the reassurance that the Berkowitz-as-insane-singular-shooter theory provides, and I think this is why the multiple gunmen theories were so very unpopular, especially during the period immediately after Berkowitz's capture.
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Old 09-21-2014, 02:19 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calliope68
This is a question I have had for many years. Berkowitz never struck me has being intelligent enough to carry these out,he did not match all the sketches and even the detectives had there doubts he acted alone.
I really doubt he could have acted alone. I think it was him and the Carr bros. And when he started writing the letters they washed their hands of it knowing he was going to get arrested. And probably threatened him or his family for his silence in there part in the murders. Once they died he began to talk- dead men can't retaliate against him.
As to why they killings stopped after Berkowitz was arrested. The bros were probably waiting till the heat was down(son to speak) and they were going to start killing. But they themselves were killed several years later before they got the chance to kill again.
It is not unsual for serial killers to stop for periods of time. I have not read the books you cited but I am going to get them and read!
How intelligent do you have to be to fire a gun at people at close range & then get out of dodge before the cops arrive, most criminals get caught because of stupidity rather than any brilliance by the police.

Eyewitness reports are hugely unreliable-you can have 20 people looking at the same thing & get 20 different descriptions. They could have seen somebody innocent somewhere near to the scene & give that description. They may not have got a good look-but feel a pressure to give a description so create an image in their mind.

It is possible others were involved but the usual reasons most murders stop is because the perpetrator has been caught. Otis & Toole invented a ludicrous cabal of murderers, like Berkowitz they were also pathological fantasists & liars.
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Old 09-21-2014, 02:21 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MegtheEgg86
The multiple gunmen theories originated with a faction of NYPD officers and then-Queens D.A. John Santucci. Maury Terry simply relayed them in his book.

I do agree that there exist some pretty tenuous connections in that book in my estimation. However, the multiple gunmen theories were being tossed around long before Terry ever got to writing The Ultimate Evil, and the arena wasn't within the media or journalists, but among LEOs themselves.

In fact, the lone gunman theory was largely what the media was reporting and promoting heavily at the time of the investigation as well as during Berkowitz's arrest and trial. The crimes gripped and changed NYC profoundly. Understandably, the public greatly enjoyed the reassurance that the Berkowitz-as-insane-singular-shooter theory provides, and I think this is why the multiple gunmen theories were so very unpopular, especially during the period immediately after Berkowitz's capture.
And that the murders stopped-like they did in Atlanta when Wayne Williams was taken off the streets.
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Old 09-21-2014, 04:55 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James T
How intelligent do you have to be to fire a gun at people at close range & then get out of dodge before the cops arrive, most criminals get caught because of stupidity rather than any brilliance by the police.

Eyewitness reports are hugely unreliable-you can have 20 people looking at the same thing & get 20 different descriptions. They could have seen somebody innocent somewhere near to the scene & give that description. They may not have got a good look-but feel a pressure to give a description so create an image in their mind.

It is possible others were involved but the usual reasons most murders stop is because the perpetrator has been caught. Otis & Toole invented a ludicrous cabal of murderers, like Berkowitz they were also pathological fantasists & liars.
My problem with what you just said is that you're questioning Berkowitz credibility. Aside from being in possession of the gun in the murders, any decent lawyer could have gotten Berkowitz off if he pleaded not guilty. To my knowledge there is really no physical evidence that he shot anybody. Your admission that ID's are unreliable is all the reasonable doubt a lawyer would need to get an acquittal. So basically we have to rely on his confession to police after getting caught. The confession of a fantasist and liar according to you. Your theory makes his confession even less realistic than the multiple shooters theory. At least that's how I'm reading the big picture according to what you just said.
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Old 09-21-2014, 10:32 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by elg0rd0
My problem with what you just said is that you're questioning Berkowitz credibility. Aside from being in possession of the gun in the murders, any decent lawyer could have gotten Berkowitz off if he pleaded not guilty.

He was :
a) in possession of the murder weapon
b) proven to be in the vicinity of the last murder at the time it took place
c) Caught with incriminating material (maps of the crime scences, a threatening letter to the head of the investigation) in his car.
d) Driving a car similar to that which had been spotted at a number of the murders

You'd better have a damn good story to get past that compelling circumstantial evidence.

Berkowitz may have been off his rocker (he'd scrawled satanic graiffitti all over his apartment) but his confession tallied with the forensic evidence.

I don't dismiss the multiple gunman theory entirely - but it will take more than Berkowitz's wild fantasies to convince me of it
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Old 09-22-2014, 01:01 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by isotope
He was :
a) in possession of the murder weapon
b) proven to be in the vicinity of the last murder at the time it took place
c) Caught with incriminating material (maps of the crime scences, a threatening letter to the head of the investigation) in his car.
d) Driving a car similar to that which had been spotted at a number of the murders

You'd better have a damn good story to get past that compelling circumstantial evidence.

Berkowitz may have been off his rocker (he'd scrawled satanic graiffitti all over his apartment) but his confession tallied with the forensic evidence.

I don't dismiss the multiple gunman theory entirely - but it will take more than Berkowitz's wild fantasies to convince me of it
Which means he was in possession of a firearm. It does not mean beyond a reasonable doubt he was at the crime scene and fired the gun. The maps and crime scene photos he could have gotten anywhere.

The letter again does not prove in a court of law he fired the gun or was at any of the crime scenes.

I understand eyewitness testimony and statements are unreliable. But when there are so many eyewitnesses who say no it was not Dave Berkowitz, the lone gunman theory has to be tossed out. I'm sorry but to have that many people within the investigation that had access to evidence that the press did not and who the majority agree that Berkowitz was not involved in the "shootings" has to be taken into account.
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Old 09-22-2014, 03:44 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elg0rd0
My problem with what you just said is that you're questioning Berkowitz credibility. Aside from being in possession of the gun in the murders, any decent lawyer could have gotten Berkowitz off if he pleaded not guilty. To my knowledge there is really no physical evidence that he shot anybody. Your admission that ID's are unreliable is all the reasonable doubt a lawyer would need to get an acquittal. So basically we have to rely on his confession to police after getting caught. The confession of a fantasist and liar according to you. Your theory makes his confession even less realistic than the multiple shooters theory. At least that's how I'm reading the big picture according to what you just said.
He has no credibility-very few criminals do because they lie about everything. Sure-without direct physical evidence most people walk, because a jury is very loathe to put somebody away for a serious crime based on circumstantial evidence alone. In this case you had a lot of circumstantial evidence along with physical evidence, his weird appearance & behaviour in the court also did him no favours.
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Old 09-22-2014, 07:25 AM   #30
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This case doesn't get a lot of attention, but I've always been intrigued by this unsolved murder in 1981. A Manhattan couple is murdered in their apartment on Halloween and have their place ransacked. A prison informant comes forward, claiming that weeks beforehand, Berkowitz had told him that a couple would be killed by his cult in a ritual murder on Halloween and their home would be ransacked. Berkowitz then states that the victim, Ronald Sisman, had snuff footage of one of the Son of Sam murders and was planning to blow the case wide open by handing it over to the authorities to beat some drug charges.
http://books.google.ca/books?id=gijG...crimes&f=false

It sounds pretty absurd, but apparently, Berkowitz did provide some accurate details about the crime and Sisman's apartment.
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