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Old 01-11-2009, 12:08 PM   #16
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I remember this case from UM but don't have the familiarity with it that some of you do, nonetheless, I'm very, very skeptical of massive conspiracy theories... to accept them, you generally have to presume that the entire power structure is corrupt and evil, sophisicated enough to carry out some massive conspiracy, yet stupid enough to make crazy blunders.

Let's assume, arguendo, that the boys did stumble across some drug activity by corrupt cops and elected officials and that said persons wished to eliminate them for it. Why stage an elaborate death that would certainly draw attention to itself? Wouldn't it be easier to just make the boys disappear? I mean, if you're dealing with such a massive conspiracy, certainly it could just abduct the boys, feed them through a wood chipper or something and dump what's left into the ocean. Then you don't have bodies, you don't have autopsies, and you just have missing kids who went out and were never seen again... you factor in some misguided "sightings" (maybe even some planted by the conspirators) and the like and you get a nice clean mystery divorced from the time and place of the original illicit activity.

I'm not saying it's not possible, but as Sagan used to say, extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof, and for the vast majority of every conspiracy theory there is, this proof is sorely, sorely lacking.
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Old 01-11-2009, 03:58 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TracyLynnS
If these boys were supposed to be out "night hunting", anyone know exactly what it was they were hunting for?

I know that here in michigan, it's against the law (and was way back before 1987, when these murders happened) to use a light to shine game (deer, etc.) and then shoot the animal at night.

In michigan, we have "legal shooting light". The department of natural resources publishes a calendar with every day of the hunting season noted. On each day, "legal light" is noted, when you can begin shooting. It may seem light enough to shoot, but you have to check your calendar for the time to be sure, so you don't break the law, lose your guns and all your hunting gear, atvs, hunting license, and get a big fine. One day, legal shooting light may be 7:13 am and the next day it may be 7:14 am. That's the rules for waterfowl.

For deer, I think the rule is just "sunrise" or "first light" when it's not dark anymore and you can clearly define your target as a deer and not human, dog, livestock, etc. Not sure on those legalities....

So basically, were these boys on the tracks out poaching (illegally hunting) at night? I know down south, they ain't as picky about shootin varmints are they are here up north. Maybe nobody cared.

But, maybe the cops used it as a way to aprehend the boys, which started them on that slippery slope into the police corruption, drug drop, etc.
Kevin and Don were deer poaching---not only were they spotlighting, they were hunting out of season.

Someone mentioned on another Ives/Henry thread a while back that maybe the spotlighting story was just an excuse for the boys to get out of the house, away from adults, you know; it wasn't that they lied to Curtis' father, of course, it was just that they were more interested in doing something someplace besides Don's house. During autoposy it was found the boys had indeed smoked marijuana (althought not at all the amount that Malak had originally stated), so it's possible that that's what they set out to the woods to do.
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Old 01-11-2009, 04:12 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by egswanso
I remember this case from UM but don't have the familiarity with it that some of you do, nonetheless, I'm very, very skeptical of massive conspiracy theories... to accept them, you generally have to presume that the entire power structure is corrupt and evil, sophisicated enough to carry out some massive conspiracy, yet stupid enough to make crazy blunders.

Let's assume, arguendo, that the boys did stumble across some drug activity by corrupt cops and elected officials and that said persons wished to eliminate them for it. Why stage an elaborate death that would certainly draw attention to itself? Wouldn't it be easier to just make the boys disappear? I mean, if you're dealing with such a massive conspiracy, certainly it could just abduct the boys, feed them through a wood chipper or something and dump what's left into the ocean. Then you don't have bodies, you don't have autopsies, and you just have missing kids who went out and were never seen again... you factor in some misguided "sightings" (maybe even some planted by the conspirators) and the like and you get a nice clean mystery divorced from the time and place of the original illicit activity.

I'm not saying it's not possible, but as Sagan used to say, extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof, and for the vast majority of every conspiracy theory there is, this proof is sorely, sorely lacking.
In Saline County, Arkansas---especially in 1987---I think a disappearance into woods less than a mile from Don Henry's residence would've drawn far more attention than death from train impact. In fact, just years before, there had been one or two train deaths in that part of Arkansas that had been ruled suicides.

Residents of Saline County and those surrounding had started noticing strange activity in the woods near those tracks since the early '80s. A disappearance from that area surely would've raised more than a few eyebrows, I would think. Make it look like an accident, shut up the small players (such as the paramedics, who had actually attached a note of interest onto their initial report on the condition of the boys' bodies when they found them, suggesting that they had been dead long before they were struck by the train), and sit back and rest easy knowing you have the big timers on your side (Fahmy Malak, the state medical examiner, for instance). I think this was honestly a case of overconfidence on the conspirators' part. I truly believe they honestly thought the general populace was not going to question the state of Arkansas and its officials. "Oh well, couple of boys smoking dope. You know what that stuff does to you." And they thought everyone would just move on and forget it.

I for one don't buy into the "Clinton Body Count" thing or anything in that particular vein, but I do honestly, completely, and totally believe the Ives/Henry murders were coverups, and related to drug trafficking. If you research this case enough, I do truly believe you'll come to a similar conclusion.
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Old 01-13-2009, 04:29 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MegtheEgg86
I for one don't buy into the "Clinton Body Count" thing or anything in that particular vein, but I do honestly, completely, and totally believe the Ives/Henry murders were coverups, and related to drug trafficking. If you research this case enough, I do truly believe you'll come to a similar conclusion.
Perhaps. What of the confession I saw on snopes re: the kids stole coke from a dealer who confessed to murdering them in exchange?

I saw the story on UM today, and didn't really get the feel of a cover-up... why is the state re-opening the case, re-autopsing the bodies, convining grand juries, and finding the deaths as homicides? It doesn't make sense if you're trying to cover the same up. It seems the AR state ME was incompetent, but being stupid doesn't equal conspiracy.
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Old 01-23-2009, 01:03 AM   #20
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I'm Kevin's mom -- the snopes site is about as accurate as the Clinton body count sites. I have always been willing to accept FACTS whatever they may be. There is absolutely NO evidence the boys were stealing drugs -- they were simply in the wrong place at the wrong time.
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Old 01-23-2009, 11:17 AM   #21
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Ms. Ives -

Welcome to the UM board! Thanks for posting.

I'm very sorry for the loss of your son. Even after all these years, I'm sure the pain never goes away. Especially losing your son the way you did and never having closure. My condolences to you.

As for your son's story, I've always believed the only thing he and his friend were guilty of is being at the wrong place at the wrong time. Just a sad, sad story.

Best wishes,

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Old 01-26-2009, 01:28 PM   #22
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Quote:
If these boys were supposed to be out "night hunting", anyone know exactly what it was they were hunting for?

I know that here in michigan, it's against the law (and was way back before 1987, when these murders happened) to use a light to shine game (deer, etc.) and then shoot the animal at night.
Spotlighting is illegal here in Illinois, too. Also, legal deer season is during winter, not summer. I would guess they were out hunting illegally (not saying that they deserved to be killed for it or anything). It is possible they could have been hunting coyotes. Coyotes are nocturnal, and they're considered pests so you can kill them anytime of year.

I agree with the cover-up theory. Yes, the cops created a mess when they killed the boys. But this was obviously not a well thought-out killing. These guys panicked because someone who wasn't supposed to be there showed up. They didn't have time to plan things out. Plus, it's possible that they weren't the sharpest tools in the shed anyway (wouldn't it make more sense to bury the bodies somewhere far away and remote?). Dumb, panicky people do dumb things. They knew they would have friends at the top to protect them.

Ms. Ives- I'm so sorry for your loss.
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Old 01-31-2009, 02:04 AM   #23
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I'm a bit confused about the tarp in this case. Let's assume for now that the boys were in fact covered by the tarp when the train ran them over. In order for the tarp to disappear, it would have to be removed after the accident. So if the murderer(s) removed the tarp, they would have had to put the tarp on them, and then after the accident, go back and remove it? All the while avoiding detection by the train crew. It doesn't make sense
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Old 01-31-2009, 11:40 AM   #24
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I'm a bit confused about the tarp in this case. Let's assume for now that the boys were in fact covered by the tarp when the train ran them over. In order for the tarp to disappear, it would have to be removed after the accident. So if the murderer(s) removed the tarp, they would have had to put the tarp on them, and then after the accident, go back and remove it? All the while avoiding detection by the train crew. It doesn't make sense
The theory is that law enforcement officials, for some inexplicable reason, made sure the tarp never surfaced, even though it was there at the scene.

Stephen Shroyer, the engineer, and Jerry Tomlin, the conductor (as well as at least one other member of the train crew), testified that there was definitely a green tarp covering the boys before impact. Upon impact, the tarp blew off and away. Since the murder site was just beyond a railroad trestle, the most likely scenario was that the tarp fell below that trestle, or at least within close proximity of it (as were the boys' bodies, Don's rifle, and his spotlight). The crew did search the area as depicted in the UM segment, but certainly not as extensively as did the police and EMS. A tarp is a much lighter object than a body, and it probably traveled a greater distance, or settled below the trestle. More than likely, the crew simply missed it.

Nonetheless, the crew reported the tarp and officers went looking for it. Since no tarp ever surfaced, clearly someone lied. The same testimony from three men who had no reason whatsoever to have fabricated that detail leads me to believe that the investigating agencies are the ones who aren't telling the truth---for whatever reason that may be. The biggest thing I can think of is that tarp probably contained valuable forensic evidence.

Mara Leveritt's book The Boys On the Tracks tells of a situation not long after the accident that Kevin's father Larry went down to the murder site and recovered what appeared to be a large piece of cardboard. He speculated that it may have been used to move bodies, as it was large and sturdy enough, and appeared to have definite blood stains on its surface. He took this to Saline County authorities with the hope of having it tested. No one ever saw this board again.
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Old 04-17-2009, 11:44 AM   #25
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what about the guy and the camo outfit there was also murders acouple of miles away in a different town along with the same stranger in the camo walking the tracks. could that be the drug ring looking for drugs along the tracks? they could be responsiblr for the following murders in the other town.
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Old 04-17-2009, 11:58 AM   #26
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what about the guy and the camo outfit there was also murders acouple of miles away in a different town along with the same stranger in the camo walking the tracks. could that be the drug ring looking for drugs along the tracks? they could be responsiblr for the following murders in the other town.
Where did you hear that story? The segment only mentioned a 1984 case in Oklahoma where two males had been run over by a train while lying on the tracks. I've never read anything about murders near Bryant specifically involving the "man in military fatigues."
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Old 04-17-2009, 03:10 PM   #27
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it was on spike the episode and there were witnesses saying they drove passed or walk [past the tracks and they remember seeing an odd fellow with what looked like camo gear on and that a town miles away from rthat town also experienced murders and they say that there was the same guy walking down the tracks the same time the othr murders were involved is it possible that he or they were loking for drugs along the tracks and they killed these people because they were in the wrong place at the wrong time.

oh and one of the boys had knife cuts in his shirt.
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Old 04-17-2009, 10:51 PM   #28
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it was on spike the episode and there were witnesses saying they drove passed or walk [past the tracks and they remember seeing an odd fellow with what looked like camo gear on...oh and one of the boys had knife cuts in his shirt.
Yeah, I know. It's on the original NBC segment. I was under the impression you had some sort of information outside the segment I wasn't aware of.

Quote:
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and that a town miles away from rthat town also experienced murders and they say that there was the same guy walking down the tracks the same time the othr murders were involved
I really think you're thinking of the 1984 "similar case" in Oklahoma that was mentioned, because that's not in the segment at all.
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Old 09-08-2010, 02:13 AM   #29
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I'm very inclined to believe linda ives' account especially when she has gotten wtiness testimony.
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Old 09-11-2010, 02:50 PM   #30
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In response to someone mentioning Bill Clinton earlier... I remember getting an e-mail from one of those conspiracy theory groups that talked about all the people who met untimely ends while working for the Clinton administration. I want to say that "The Boys on the Tracks" were included in this list. They stood out to me because they didn't actually work for the Clinton Administration, yet they were allegedly victims of it. In any case, it's interesting.

Anyone else familiar with the e-mail I'm talking about?
It is the Clinton body count. Some of the cases on the list are really stretching it but the list as a whole (I believe) is VERY truthful).

In a sick way, you can add teh 9/11/2001 victims to this list as well because Clinton had two offers from the Sudanese to take out Bin laden and he turned them away.
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