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Old 05-09-2021, 01:27 PM   #46
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I think that Berkowitz didn't act alone, but I don't think there was a satanic cult. I think the Carrs were involved, and maybe one other person, but it wasn't a cult.

I think that Maura Terry was on the right path, but lost it by becoming obsessed and wanting to find out why the killings happened. Sometimes, people are just evil, and it's easy to explain. His obsession with wanting to find out why they were evil, consumed him, and the cult theory took over and was ludicrous.

No satanic cult, no human sacrifices, no nation wide conspiracy, it was just a group of sick evil people killing.
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Old 05-10-2021, 12:54 AM   #47
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Recently finished watching The Sons of Sam: A Descent into Darkness Netflix 4-part documentary. Very well-done, thoroughly researched, and extremely gripping/compelling/intriguing. Also liked the Season of the Witch (Donovan, 1966) "theme" song for the series - very appropriate. I still think DB almost certainly acted alone re: the SOS killings. But, this does present an "alternate take" on this, even though I don't believe that it happened this way.

Some thoughts:

-This panic about cults, etc. that came up in the '70's/'80's was ridiculous & IMHO had little to no veracity. Specifically, the idea that the roleplaying game "Dungeons & Dragons" and the innocent cartoon "The Smurfs" were sinister/malevolent & had hidden meanings, etc. is patently ludicrous.

-I can see how MT could have made the connections between DB & the alleged "cult" due to the close proximity of DB's apartment to the house of the Carr brother (JC & MC), Untermeyer park, etc.

-Yes, there may have been some kind of "cults" that existed in this area where DB lived that "sacrificed" animals, etc. But, I don't necessarily think that DB knew these people and/or associated with them. And, I don't think that they had anything to do with the SOS killings; though they may have been involved in other killings.

-I have concerns about the veracity of what DB is telling MT during the two interviews we saw portions of in the doc. (1993 & 1997). It seems to me that MT is "feeding" DB info. & DB is telling him what he wants to hear. I.e., instead of MT asking DB exactly what happened (which is what he should have done), I see DB picking up on what MT is asking/telling & then forming the narrative around this info.

-I definitely do not believe DB when he says he didn't do all/most of the killings.

-I don't see the "eyewitness accounts" as describing someone who didn't look like DB as being too much of an issue. These types of accounts are notoriously unreliable; most of these happened at night/early evening when it was either dark or getting dark and it would have been hard to make out facial/body details, etc.; and, they all happened relatively quickly.

-The final SOS murder was the killing of SM & the blinding of her bf, RV. This is the one that the doc. claims couldn't have been done by DB because he got a parking ticket a distance away. But, he still could have walked several blocks, done the killings, and then walked back to his car.

-After DB was arrested, the killings stopped - which strongly indicated that he was the sole SOS killer. Yes, I know those that believe a cult existed will argue that the Carr Bros. were also SOS killers & the reason the killings stopped (after DB's arrest) was because they both died under 'mysterious' circumstances. However, if this truly was a "cult" that was doing the killings, an organization like this (with multiple people) would have had others that should have continued these. Also, John Carr died six months after DB's arrest, and Michael Carr died two years after the arrest. Why weren't there any more killings after the arrest & before they passed?! Again, this strongly points to DB acting alone.

-I agree that MT unfortunately became obsessed with proving that DB didn't act alone. And, apparently trying to prove this took over his life & ruined his health. Sad.
There may have been more murders, the group could very well have simply changed their MO after Berkowitz was caught. I think its highly unlikely he acted alone. The Carr brothers were likely involved and at least two others as well still at large.

And for whatever reason it seems there has been a movement in recent years to try to prove cults never existed. Not sure why. Probably a way of trying to paint people of faith as loons.
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Old 05-10-2021, 02:55 PM   #48
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This case has troubled me for many years. I read Terry's book shortly after it came out back in the later 80's. I backed away from this case for years but I found a link to an interesting article that is probably old news to most here. Berkowitz gives specific claims about what murders the Carr brothers were involved in. I never knew this. I'm not saying this whole multiple killers is true but some of those sketches do resemble the Carr brothers. That's something that has stayed with me. https://www.bustle.com/entertainment...sam-connection
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Old 05-10-2021, 03:38 PM   #49
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Excellent points, Latka Gravas!
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Old 05-10-2021, 06:34 PM   #50
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I believe Berkowitz was a part of a cult who committed the murders. I truly believe the Brooklyn shootings were the best evidence of the multiple shooter theory. No way he covered all that distance in the time window.

The fact that many witnesses described a thinner, taller man as the shooter and a different car in the area definitely lends to the idea that Berkowitz did not act alone.
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Old 05-11-2021, 02:35 AM   #51
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I think that Berkowitz didn't act alone, but I don't think there was a satanic cult. I think the Carrs were involved, and maybe one other person, but it wasn't a cult.

I think that Maura Terry was on the right path, but lost it by becoming obsessed and wanting to find out why the killings happened. Sometimes, people are just evil, and it's easy to explain. His obsession with wanting to find out why they were evil, consumed him, and the cult theory took over and was ludicrous.

No satanic cult, no human sacrifices, no nation wide conspiracy, it was just a group of sick evil people killing.
So that begs the question, what would you consider a cult? We know Berkowitz and the Carrs both engaged in Satanism. And as I said, it seems likely from all we know there were at least two other people involved in the shootings still at large, possibly more.

It just seems that you are joining this "there was no cult" movement by trying hard to prove there wasn't when you really don't know. None of us really know for sure. Berkowitz by his own admission expects to remain in prison for the rest of his life, he has admitted that he carried out about half the Son of Sam shootings. So he doesn't have much to gain by lying. And what about the meetings witnessed in Central Park in 1987 where they found the dead dogs?
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Old 05-11-2021, 11:51 AM   #52
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And for whatever reason it seems there has been a movement in recent years to try to prove cults never existed. Not sure why.
I hear you on this. There has been too much of an extreme in regards to pushback about cults and the crimes they have committed. But at the same time, there were many examples where satanic panic went overboard and tried to invent evils that were never there. So the truth is somewhere in the middle. They can apply in some cases but not in others.

For instance, the lengths that prosecutors went to in the West Memphis 3 to paint those three teenage boys as not only killers but satanic cult members and worshipers was absurd. Growing your hair long, wearing black clothing and Metallica t-shirts does not make you an admirer of Satan and willing to kill innocent people for him. But you take the setting - a very small, conservative town in rural Arkansas in the early 90's, and the residents just eat that all up. You're basically just painting a BS picture of pure evil for the jury to make up for the fact that you have no physical evidence tying those boys to the murders...AND IT WORKED!!!

But then you take the UM case of Shane Stewart and Sally McNelly. There’s not a doubt in my mind that they were killed by the same satanic cult members they used to be a part of. You have a reliable witness (Sally’s friend Helen) who saw these whack-jobs up close. You have Sally’s mother overhearing these same people cheering that they had caught a demon in a bottle. We have proof that the cult members wanted to start engaging in illegal activity which is why Shane and Sally left the group and turned the gun they were given in to the police. You have Sally on record telling Helen that she’s afraid said cult members are going to kill her and then her and Shane conveniently ending up dead from shotgun blasts. What else am I supposed to think?

I do NOT think David Berkowitz acted alone. And I wouldn’t be surprised if he and the Carr brothers were part of a cult. Though, it can’t be conclusively proven either way. But I also don’t think I’d be surprised either way. Some cases deserve the side eye when satanic panic comes into play, some do not and some are definite maybes. Writing off ALL satanic cults is extremely naÔve.
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Old 05-11-2021, 12:11 PM   #53
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Berkowitz's story re: who was responsible for the SOS killings has changed over the years.

When he was initially arrested back in 1977, he claimed that he did all of the shootings/killings himself & that a demonic "dog" told him to do them. Then, he later said there was no devil-dog.

Then, when MT was interviewing him in the '90's (as was seen in the Netflix doc.) he admitted to others having been involved in the shootings - after MT asked him leading questions.

So, which is it?! Either he acted alone, or he didn't - but both can't be true. Did a dog-devil tell him to do the killings due to his delusions, or did he just make this up?!

I.e., Berkowitz is obviously not credible.

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Old 05-11-2021, 12:47 PM   #54
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Berkowitz's story re: who was responsible for the SOS killings has changed over the years.

When he was initially arrested back in 1977, he claimed that he did all of the shootings/killings & that a demonic "dog" told him to do them. Then, he later said there was no devil-dog.

Then, when MT was interviewing him in the '90's (as was seen in the Netflix doc.) he admitted to others having been involved in the shootings - after MT asked him leading questions.

So, which is it?! Either he acted alone, or he didn't - but both can't be true. Did a dog-devil tell him to do the killings due to his delusions, or did he just make this up?!

I.e., Berkowitz is obviously not credible.
Neither I believe are the eyewitness accounts, the idea of him & a cult is as believable as Lucas & Toole's Hand Of Death cult. May be unsexy, but he did all the murders himself.
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Old 05-11-2021, 07:00 PM   #55
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Berkowitz's story re: who was responsible for the SOS killings has changed over the years.

When he was initially arrested back in 1977, he claimed that he did all of the shootings/killings himself & that a demonic "dog" told him to do them. Then, he later said there was no devil-dog.

Then, when MT was interviewing him in the '90's (as was seen in the Netflix doc.) he admitted to others having been involved in the shootings - after MT asked him leading questions.

So, which is it?! Either he acted alone, or he didn't - but both can't be true. Did a dog-devil tell him to do the killings due to his delusions, or did he just make this up?!

I.e., Berkowitz is obviously not credible.
Actually, Berkowitz has been pretty consistent in recent years. Its common knowledge he claimed he did all the murders at first, once he began reforming and claiming to be a born again Christian his story became consistent: 1. He was the triggerman in some but not all of the shootings. 2. The Carr brothers were involved, 3. A female did one of the shootings, 4. Another man did the Stacy Moscowitts shooting who is still at large. 5. That he has refrained from naming the other shooters for fear of retaliation against his family.
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Old 05-11-2021, 07:01 PM   #56
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Neither I believe are the eyewitness accounts, the idea of him & a cult is as believable as Lucas & Toole's Hand Of Death cult. May be unsexy, but he did all the murders himself.
Unlikely.
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Old 05-11-2021, 07:06 PM   #57
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I hear you on this. There has been too much of an extreme in regards to pushback about cults and the crimes they have committed. But at the same time, there were many examples where satanic panic went overboard and tried to invent evils that were never there. So the truth is somewhere in the middle. They can apply in some cases but not in others.

For instance, the lengths that prosecutors went to in the West Memphis 3 to paint those three teenage boys as not only killers but satanic cult members and worshipers was absurd. Growing your hair long, wearing black clothing and Metallica t-shirts does not make you an admirer of Satan and willing to kill innocent people for him. But you take the setting - a very small, conservative town in rural Arkansas in the early 90's, and the residents just eat that all up. You're basically just painting a BS picture of pure evil for the jury to make up for the fact that you have no physical evidence tying those boys to the murders...AND IT WORKED!!!

But then you take the UM case of Shane Stewart and Sally McNelly. Thereís not a doubt in my mind that they were killed by the same satanic cult members they used to be a part of. You have a reliable witness (Sallyís friend Helen) who saw these whack-jobs up close. You have Sallyís mother overhearing these same people cheering that they had caught a demon in a bottle. We have proof that the cult members wanted to start engaging in illegal activity which is why Shane and Sally left the group and turned the gun they were given in to the police. You have Sally on record telling Helen that sheís afraid said cult members are going to kill her and then her and Shane conveniently ending up dead from shotgun blasts. What else am I supposed to think?

I do NOT think David Berkowitz acted alone. And I wouldnít be surprised if he and the Carr brothers were part of a cult. Though, it canít be conclusively proven either way. But I also donít think Iíd be surprised either way. Some cases deserve the side eye when satanic panic comes into play, some do not and some are definite maybes. Writing off ALL satanic cults is extremely naÔve.
All this is pretty much spot on. Obviously thinking anyone is part of a satanic cult due to how they dress or that they listen to rock music is utterly absurd. I've loved rock my whole life, never even thought of worshipping Satan.

But like you said, its just ridiculous to act like they never existed. And its mostly spear headed by people who weren't even alive in the 70's and 80's.

For one thing, its actually an exaggeration to call it a Satanic panic. As someone who grew up in the 80's I can tell you it was not a panic. Were people aware of it and considered it a possibility in many cases? Yeah. But this notion that it kept so many people up at night is silly.

There has been a desire by many people to rewrite history lately to conform to a certain narrative in my opinion. Its dangerous and wrong.
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Old 05-11-2021, 08:26 PM   #58
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he did all the murders himself.

agreed. never understood people who took serial killers at their word. him saying a satanic cult helped is just his way of trying to not take full responsibility.

that fat little doofy meatball shot them all
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Old 05-11-2021, 09:26 PM   #59
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agreed. never understood people who took serial killers at their word. him saying a satanic cult helped is just his way of trying to not take full responsibility.

that fat little doofy meatball shot them all
I don't think they are taking just his word for it. They are going by the varied descriptions of the shooters, the fact there are two other named suspects with circumstantial evidence connecting them to Berkowitz (The Carr brothers who both died under mysterious circumstances shortly after the murders) and one of whom happens to look almost identical to one of the composite drawings, and the fact that Berkowitz almost physically could not have shot Stacie Moscowitts as he was known to be at least two blocks away.

And Berkowitz really has nothing to gain by lying at this point.
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Old 05-11-2021, 10:25 PM   #60
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I don't think they are taking just his word for it. They are going by the varied descriptions of the shooters, the fact there are two other named suspects with circumstantial evidence connecting them to Berkowitz (The Carr brothers who both died under mysterious circumstances shortly after the murders) and one of whom happens to look almost identical to one of the composite drawings, and the fact that Berkowitz almost physically could not have shot Stacie Moscowitts as he was known to be at least two blocks away.
The Carr brothers were his neighors correct? What linked them to Berkowitz? Didn't one of the Carr brothers die from a suicide?


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And Berkowitz really has nothing to gain by lying at this point.
Lol yes he does. His story has changed multiple times, and he has told inmates that he has lied about certain things (religion) so he can get out early.

Also the amount of stupid groupies and people who "feel sorry for him" will keep his books full. He has a good amount to gain from lying. He clearly loves attention, and people are clearly giving it to him. The bad-turned-religious famous inmate will keep dumb people flocking to him willing to pay him for interviews, giving him money to put on his books etc.

If he just said "im guilty. i did it" then you would barely hear about him nowadays. Since he's claiming a "cult" was in on it, and other things like Cujo told him to do it, people are eating out the palm of his chubby little hands because he seems more "fascinating" because of his little lies. He was even caught lying about having schizophrenia to the FBI

He did it. He did all of it.
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