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Old 03-18-2010, 04:48 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by Mastermind

I don;t know why he needs to move the body twice in order get something. Pushing Chaim over a little would be sufficient. I also like you, don;t know how anything would get under there unless he was already planning to move Chaim and it fell under.

3. maybe he moved the body because he was attempting to molest Chaim...but was suddenly interrupted.
Maybe the killer came back in an attempt to move the body to conceal it. Maybe he tried to move the body under the bed or into a closet, but either Chaim was too hard to move or he got frightened that somebody might hear him.
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Old 03-18-2010, 04:53 PM   #77
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Maybe the killer came back in an attempt to move the body to conceal it. Maybe he tried to move the body under the bed or into a closet, but either Chaim was too hard to move or he got frightened that somebody might hear him.
He moved him once...I can;t imagine it would have been that difficult to move him again.

I tend to go with the theory that Chaim was moved by Rabbi's when his body was discovered.
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Old 03-18-2010, 05:59 PM   #78
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Why is the FBI involved in Chaim's death?

Hate Crime?
I gather that local authorities simply asked for investigative assistance. This was long before the world had ever heard of "hate crimes" legislation, so there would have been no separate division working on that. The forerunner to a "hate crimes" prosecution, I guess, would have been prosecuting someone for violating the civil rights of another. I suppose the FBI might have investigated under that idea.
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Old 03-19-2010, 01:57 PM   #79
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Why is the FBI involved in Chaim's death?

Hate Crime?

I gather that local authorities simply asked for investigative assistance.
It's one thing for the local authorities to ask..it's another thing for the FBI to not decline the request. (which they often do..sadly)

I have a funny feeling that the reason the FBI accepted the request was:

1. The possibility of arresting a white supremicist or Islamic group in the murder was to much of a career boosting opportunity for a Supervisor to give up. I'm sure if this was a regular boarding school they would not be so interested.

2. I wonder if the FBI had prior knowledge of other attacks linked. Maybe there was a hate letter sent to the school. That was my main reason in why I was interested in why the FBI was involved in a supposed solitary murder.


Any luck in finding the link to the FBI report on the autopsy?
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Old 03-23-2010, 11:56 PM   #80
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ccmmze, thanks for posting here. This case has always been one of the most "popular" UM cases in terms of interest, probably because of how scary and tragic the circumstances were. It's hard to believe anyone would want to do that to a 16 year old kid.

Your new information raises some important questions:

1) Apparently, the administration of this school felt they had something to fear from the neighborhood. Were previous and/or subsequent mischief nights problematic, or was it just this one time? Were there ever any other times of year when the school was targeted by anti-Semites? Can you relate any other incidents?

2) If the administration of the school was concerned enough to ask for a police car to be posted outside the school, why did they NOT make sure to have a broken lock fixed, especially in time for mischief night, which seems to have been a particular concern? This seems like a glaring inconsistency in attitude; a locksmith could fix a broken lock in an afternoon. If there was enough consternation about the neighborhood surrounding the school and potential incidents to motivate them to ask for a police car to watch the school all night, why weren't they motivated enough to get a locksmith to come put a new lock on the door?
I have no reason to believe that the school administration knew that the lock was broken. It was a side door that was rarely used.

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3) How difficult would it have been for a random person to enter and navigate the dorm, without causing enough of a disturbance to wake anyone enough that they got out of bed, and ultimately find one of only two boys with a single? If this was a random killer, it seems he got at least somewhat lucky. My question to you is: exactly how lucky did this person get?
I think either it was so random, that the police had nothing to go on, or the person was extremely lucky.

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4) Thanks for the information about how long of a time it was, minimally, between when Chaim was killed and when his body would have been moved the first time. But, if 45 minutes, minimally, had elapsed, isn't it very unlikely that the murderer was someone who otherwise had no business being in the school? Going back seems like a highly unusual thing to do, not to mention a terribly risky thing to do, for someone who only entered to kill Chaim in the first place.
Killing someone in a dormitory on the third floor is "highly unusual" and "terribly risky." I would also think that a murderer would continue taking risks to avoid getting caught. The necessary conclusion would be that if an object was left behind, it would have to be something that could identify the killer, even possibly a fingerprint.

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Any ideas of what he could have been looking for that would have ended up UNDER Chaim's body, necessitating that it be moved? I can't figure how the murder weapon would have gotten there.

5) If the person who murdered Chaim opened the window, indeed, to throw the murder weapon out of it, rather than for any particular religious reason, how likely would the crash that the noise made have been to be loud enough to people inside the dorm to wake them? Could you hear a lot of going on outside from these rooms, or not? And, if a random person had thrown a weapon out of Chaim's window, would he have had an easy time finding that weapon again once he got downstairs and outside? Was the area underneath Chaim's window easily accessible to an intruder?
The police believe that the weapon was carried out. Something else could have been thrown out without making a clatter. The area outside was a side yard and unpaved, other than a small walkway.
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Old 03-24-2010, 12:00 AM   #81
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He moved him once...I can;t imagine it would have been that difficult to move him again.

I tend to go with the theory that Chaim was moved by Rabbi's when his body was discovered.
The Police arrived before the Rabbis. The only phone call made was to 911. (Phone calls are prohibited on Saturday, other than when a person's life is in danger. We had not yet absorbed that Chaim was dead, and thought he may merely be critically injured. The rabbis were either called by the police, or by someone who ran to their house to summon them.
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Old 03-24-2010, 12:17 AM   #82
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1.But their students though...I assume most of them do not have cars. To contact a police officer they would have to call him..on a phone in the Yeshiva or their own home.

2. The kids would not talk for the same reason a neighbor in Anacostia DC doesn't talk to the police about someone being shot. The killer still is in your school and could easily make you the next target. If a rabbi did it, that is almost like witnessing a congressman kill someone! The rabbi has the power to make your life miserable.
I would assume that if I saw someone do it, I would be more afraid of living with that person, where that person knew that I knew, than having the person arrested and put away. If I was really scared, I would go home.

Furthermore, you are forgetting a basic background fact: Every student there took a lie detector test and was asked whether they "knew anything", "saw anything," "heard anything," or "were withholding any evidence." I'm assuming the police were satisfied, as no students were arrested or brought in for further questioning (that I know of).

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I don;t see your logic there. It may not be so much that they hate Chaim...but that they love their own lives a little more than getting justice for the already dead.

The person who fingers Chaims killer is going to know to everyone. That person and his family are going to be in danger from possible repercussions. Heck that person is going to be considered a sinner if the killer ever got out of jail.

.

Could you explain what you mean by "sharp tongue"? Why would this sharp tongue not prevent him from being popular?



Well, not really. It happens all the time.

1. A drug dealer or mobster/ that was disliked by his fellow gangsters for his brash behavior will probably not have anyone speaking out in his defense.

2. A prisoner who was a pedophile will probably not have any defenders if he;s found hanging from a short distance.

3. If a marine seargant who was excessively strict is found shot to death in his barracks...i'm pretty sure there won;t be a lot of privates feeling that sad about it.

I'm pretty sure in any school that there are those students that classmates would not speak out about if they died.

The code of silence works on these 3 principles
1. We clean up our own messes.
2. People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.
3. the IOU system. (you do me this favor...I'll remember and do you a favor)

The above could easily explain what happened at the Yeshiva
1. We don;t need secular, non-ordthodox laws to govern us. The rules of our God will tell us how best to find and punish this individual that killed Chaim.
2. If I expose the killer what if my own improper activities get exposed later.
3. If I don;t expose the rabbi's son as a killer, said Rabbi may make good on that favor for me later.
I can't disprove the possibility that everything you say is true. However, being there, I can only tell you my belief that it is highly unlikely. We spent hours, days, and weeks going over every possibility and every conceivable suspect. We never forgot Chaim, and I'm sure I speak for almost everyone, that we remember him fondly. I'm sure that everyone's prime objective was to have the person brought to justice. No matter who it was. Even if it was one of our own. Believe me, if we had a shred of proof that someone we knew, even a Rabbi, was involved, there would have been a race to the phone. There were more than one person in the class willing to take on a Rabbi if he felt that a Rabbi was wrong.
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Old 03-24-2010, 12:26 AM   #83
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Thanks so much for posting ccmmze and letting us know more facts and your insight. Only having watched the UM segment we aren't privy to 100% of the facts. I do agree that I think this could have definitely been a random act of violence now thinking that it was Halloween night. I'm curious what are your thoughts about the candle that was left burning in Chaim's room. Do you think the killer lit it? I think if he did it wouldn't have been an anti-semitic act for that seems to indicate respect for the religion. Unless of course, he was doing it to confuse the police.
I'm not sure about the following, because I only heard it second hand from my classmates. I believe the issue with the candle was that there was a Rabbi who went in daily to light a candle at the murder scene. (Tradition is to have a candle lit for the seven days following a person's death.) On the third day, the Rabbi entered and found a candle already lit. However, the scene was sealed and guarded by a police officer 24 hours/day for approximately one week after the murder. Whoever walked in, walked in with the officer's approval. We all assumed that since this Rabbi was an absent minded professor type, that he lit it once and forgot about it, and then went to light it again. It never really bothered me as much as the moving of the body, and the opening of the window.
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Old 03-24-2010, 12:34 PM   #84
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We spent hours, days, and weeks going over every possibility and every conceivable suspect
Thanks for your response and input. Your posts have been invaluable.

The above is helpful in that it tells us that you and your fellow classmates had no visible suspect you could think of. That in and of itself is important.

Unfortunately the fact that your group couldn;t come up with a suspect , doesn;t exactly clear the whole school.

It;s an amateur investigation (much like what we are doing..on this very site )

1. The advantage in having a detective or PI investigate a case is that..your pretty sure that the people that are investigating did not do the crime. That can;t be said for you and your fellow classmates. In these discussions...you very well may have talked about Chaim's murder....with Chaim's actual murderer!

2. Did you write or take notes about what everyone thought? Did your re-read or compare notes. One of your classmates may have actually said something important or conflicting that you forgot two days later or can;t compare it to another kids discussion.

3. Your relationship to your classmates is through the Yeshiva school. Just like some of us have relationships with people based on the workplace. But do you really know somebody just because you work or live in a dormatory with them? Do you know what their lives are outside of the Yeshiva? Do you know what's in their drawers or what they have hidden somewhere. Do you know what they're history was prior to the coming to the Yeshiva? A police detective can search someone's things, speak to their relatives, retrieve someone's records. Things that may not be privy to you and your fellow classmates.

I mean think about it. One of your classmates or rabbi;s could have had the murder weapon hidden right in the school. Unless you plan on searching the place or that person's belongings...you would have no way of knowing.

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Furthermore, you are forgetting a basic background fact: Every student there took a lie detector test
Lie detector tests are simply just for leverage. They do not really prove or disprove guilt.

Am I right to assume that YOU, yourself took a lie detector test.

We also don;t know the results of the lie detector tests. One of your classmates may very well have failed.

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whether they "knew anything", "saw anything," "heard anything," or "were withholding any evidence.
Standard police interrogation. Which can always result in mistakes, lies or pure incompetence on the witnesses behalf.

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I'm assuming the police were satisfied, as no students were arrested or brought in for further questioning (that I know of).
1. The police may not have gone to the Yeshiva to seek a second interview..they may have gone directly to the persons house or chose a more discrete location.

2. All that means is at the moment the police had no reason to suspect any of those interviewed at this time. . It's like during the Zodiac killer case, when Leigh Arthur Allen was initially interviewed, there was nothing to suspect him off in the initial interview. It wasn;t until years later that they found new information to request the second interview. That could change at any point..they may receive new information. In fact they may have requested to interview a student again....now...when they are adults....potentially living in their own homes.

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I would assume that if I saw someone do it, I would be more afraid of living with that person, where that person knew that I knew, than having the person arrested and put away. If I was really scared, I would go home.
Your preaching to the choir, brother. (sorry for the catholic reference... ) But people rarely follow that thinking. It;s why so many people are afraid to snitch on others.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mastermind
He moved him once...I can;t imagine it would have been that difficult to move him again.

I tend to go with the theory that Chaim was moved by Rabbi's when his body was discovered.

The Police arrived before the Rabbis. The only phone call made was to 911. (Phone calls are prohibited on Saturday, other than when a person's life is in danger. We had not yet absorbed that Chaim was dead, and thought he may merely be critically injured. The rabbis were either called by the police, or by someone who ran to their house to summon them
Hold a sec..pardon me for my ignorance.

1. Who was watching the other Yeshiva students that night? There had to be other adults in the building, no? Those individuals would not qualify as Rabbis, correct?

2. Who was the first adult to notice Chaim;s body?

3. Who made the 911 call?

4. Was it the EMT, that were the first responders at the scene or was it the police?

5. What exactly was the time period before Chaim was noticed by an adult and the police(the police, not the emergency medical people)

6. Could a rabbi be in the building that night? Could Rabbi "X" have stopped by that night to work on scriptures, clean up, get some things...etc, ect..Would it be that unusual for him to be there.
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Old 06-11-2010, 06:47 PM   #85
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This case was one of the creepiest ever featured.

Anyways, my feeling has always been an inside job, and the church was afraid to let one of their own be humiliated.
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Old 11-12-2010, 07:15 PM   #86
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This story just aired again today...

It's been 24 years since the murder occured. The other students are now in their late 30's early 40's... Time to send an Anonymous tip on anything they knew at the time.
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Old 01-14-2011, 10:00 AM   #87
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To play Devil's Advocate here, would it not be safe to assume that this was just a random act of violence were the motive was simply anti-semitism? It would certainly be the most plausable motive for murder out of all the ones brought forth thus far, and it also explains why someone opened the wrong door and shut it quickly when the perpetrator realized that there were two people residing in the room. Perhaps the killer checked more than one room, but only one of the boys actually woke up (or was the only one willing to talk to authorities about it). Just because the window was open and the candle was on his desk does not mean the murderer was either in the Yeshiva nor Jewish. I think either one of the boys or a rabbi found him, and keeping with their customs opened the window and lit the mourning candle. But I think authorities ruled out the possibility of an outsider too quick for that very reason.
I also thought it could be a hate crime motivated by anti-semitism, but then I dismissed it as an option for the following reasons:

1 - when an anti-semite makes a crime of this type he will let us known which was the reason and usually leaves swastikas painted or any script of the type ''Death to the Jews!!!" .Which is not the case here ....

2-the police should have investigated this as the prime motive... if this happened in a Yeshiva, a Jewish Orthodox school ... and was not even mentioned as a possible explanation in UM segment...why? because it was dismissed due to lack of evidence.

3-Why kill Chaim? And not the rabbi? Or set fire to the Yeshiva? Or leaves swastikas painted on the facade?

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Old 01-14-2011, 10:45 AM   #88
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This has never struck me as being the result of anti-semitism. There would be little reason for an anti-Semite to break into a school building and kill a single student while that student was sleeping. If they wanted to kill someone, why wouldn't they have simply set the building on fire? Or waited until one of the students was walking alone in the neighborhood?

Just finished watching this segment and I think that this killing was the result of someone in the yeshiva perhaps molesting (or trying to molest) one or more of the students. That would explain why the silence was so profound from the others in the yeshiva.Whatever happened I think that the solution to this crime came from inside the yeshiva rather than outside.
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Old 01-15-2011, 01:37 PM   #89
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This has never struck me as being the result of anti-semitism. There would be little reason for an anti-Semite to break into a school building and kill a single student while that student was sleeping. If they wanted to kill someone, why wouldn't they have simply set the building on fire? Or waited until one of the students was walking alone in the neighborhood?

Just finished watching this segment and I think that this killing was the result of someone in the yeshiva perhaps molesting (or trying to molest) one or more of the students. That would explain why the silence was so profound from the others in the yeshiva.Whatever happened I think that the solution to this crime came from inside the yeshiva rather than outside.
I'm inclined to agree. Somehow the theory of an outsider Anti Semite just doesn't fit. To break into the school at night and kill one student with a single blow to the head? Doesn't sound like some Anti-Jew nut.

Although I think the molestation theory is a stretch to, I think there has to be some more information or evidence pointing to that than there is before you go accusing people of that.

I think the most logical theory is that there was a dispute between Chaim and another student, perhaps this other student went to his room that night to confront him about it, they argued and it got out of hand. Perhaps he didn't even intend to kill him, he might have struck him over the head in anger, realized what he'd done, then fled back to his own room.

It would also explain the extra candle and the opening of his window, thats a sign of possible remorse. A mad dog Jew hating killer would seem unlikely to stop with one blow or do anything like that.

Although I admit its strange no one heard if there was an argument.

And its also a pretty big coincidence Chaim was one of the only students without a roommate.
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Old 01-15-2011, 01:57 PM   #90
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I'm inclined to agree. Somehow the theory of an outsider Anti Semite just doesn't fit. To break into the school at night and kill one student with a single blow to the head? Doesn't sound like some Anti-Jew nut.

Although I think the molestation theory is a stretch to, I think there has to be some more information or evidence pointing to that than there is before you go accusing people of that.

I think the most logical theory is that there was a dispute between Chaim and another student, perhaps this other student went to his room that night to confront him about it, they argued and it got out of hand. Perhaps he didn't even intend to kill him, he might have struck him over the head in anger, realized what he'd done, then fled back to his own room.

It would also explain the extra candle and the opening of his window, thats a sign of possible remorse. A mad dog Jew hating killer would seem unlikely to stop with one blow or do anything like that.

Although I admit its strange no one heard if there was an argument.

And its also a pretty big coincidence Chaim was one of the only students without a roommate.
Actually, unless the parents pay for the rooms at the yeshiva, it doesn't make sense the Chaim had his own room, especially given that he was so young. And the molestation charge isn't a stretch as it would explain why the adults in this case actively worked to sabotage the police investigation.

As I understand Orthodox Judaism, while you aren't supposed to accuse w/o solid proof, murders are supposed to face judgment and ultimately, punishment for their actions. The killer likely would have been forced to confess or have been shunned by the group had there not been more to the case.

I think that this case was "handled" internally and the killer (or killers) have faced punishment within their own community. While that probably didn't include a stretch in prison, I'm sure that the social consequences were very harsh.
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