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Old 03-17-2010, 12:28 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zlatko
Thank you, ccmmze, for the information you've given thus far.

I just have a few questions regarding Chaim. Were there any students in the school that didn't like Chaim? By that, I mean had a lot of animosity towards him? Did anyone have anything against his family in general?
In general, notwithstanding his "sharp tongue", he was a very popular kid. I can't think of any student that would have enough animosity to kill him.

Think this through for a minute - we spent at least the next 9 months of the school year (some of us even several more years) sleeping in the same building with the rest of our classmates. Don't you think we spent most of our waking moments considering whether one of our classmates did it? Even if you would believe that there was a "code of silence" (which wasn't stronger in our school than any other high school in America), don't you think at least one of the students would have leaked the information, at least anonymously? The possibility that one of the students did it, and other students knowing about it and not informing the authorities would only be conceivable if EVERY single person hated him enough to kill him (which only happens in Agatha Christie novels), and Chaim was definitely not hated, and actually one of the more popular students.
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Old 03-17-2010, 12:59 PM   #62
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don't you think at least one of the students would have leaked the information, at least anonymously?
1.But their students though...I assume most of them do not have cars. To contact a police officer they would have to call him..on a phone in the Yeshiva or their own home.

2. The kids would not talk for the same reason a neighbor in Anacostia DC doesn't talk to the police about someone being shot. The killer still is in your school and could easily make you the next target. If a rabbi did it, that is almost like witnessing a congressman kill someone! The rabbi has the power to make your life miserable.

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The possibility that one of the students did it, and other students knowing about it and not informing the authorities would only be conceivable if EVERY single person hated him enough to kill him
I don;t see your logic there. It may not be so much that they hate Chaim...but that they love their own lives a little more than getting justice for the already dead.

The person who fingers Chaims killer is going to know to everyone. That person and his family are going to be in danger from possible repercussions. Heck that person is going to be considered a sinner if the killer ever got out of jail.

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In general, notwithstanding his "sharp tongue", he was a very popular kid
.

Could you explain what you mean by "sharp tongue"? Why would this sharp tongue not prevent him from being popular?

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(which only happens in Agatha Christie novels)
Well, not really. It happens all the time.

1. A drug dealer or mobster/ that was disliked by his fellow gangsters for his brash behavior will probably not have anyone speaking out in his defense.

2. A prisoner who was a pedophile will probably not have any defenders if he;s found hanging from a short distance.

3. If a marine seargant who was excessively strict is found shot to death in his barracks...i'm pretty sure there won;t be a lot of privates feeling that sad about it.

I'm pretty sure in any school that there are those students that classmates would not speak out about if they died.

The code of silence works on these 3 principles
1. We clean up our own messes.
2. People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.
3. the IOU system. (you do me this favor...I'll remember and do you a favor)

The above could easily explain what happened at the Yeshiva
1. We don;t need secular, non-ordthodox laws to govern us. The rules of our God will tell us how best to find and punish this individual that killed Chaim.
2. If I expose the killer what if my own improper activities get exposed later.
3. If I don;t expose the rabbi's son as a killer, said Rabbi may make good on that favor for me later.
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Old 03-17-2010, 03:58 PM   #63
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I can only speak for myself in saying that I accepted at face value UM's claim that the school was secretive and non-cooperative. They made it a point to portray Yeshivas that way and, what with the improbably circumstances of the murder going unsolved, it seemed that way. From what you've said though there was much more cooperation than we would have ben led to believe.

Thank you for being so open and honest and indulging these questions, I've been curious about this horrible crime for a long time. Also please excuse the quizzing and the ignorance of yours and Travenian's culture but its a million miles, figuratively, from how I grew up so i'm a little curious.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ccmmze
Think this through for a minute - we spent at least the next 9 months of the school year (some of us even several more years) sleeping in the same building with the rest of our classmates. Don't you think we spent most of our waking moments considering whether one of our classmates did it? Even if you would believe that there was a "code of silence" (which wasn't stronger in our school than any other high school in America), don't you think at least one of the students would have leaked the information, at least anonymously? The possibility that one of the students did it, and other students knowing about it and not informing the authorities would only be conceivable if EVERY single person hated him enough to kill him (which only happens in Agatha Christie novels), and Chaim was definitely not hated, and actually one of the more popular students.


Taking into account what you've said above I am assuming that its your opinion that the murderer wandered in off the street, through the broken door, & up the stairs to Chaim's room?
Was that the prevailing opinion throughout the school?
If my assumption is incorrect what's your opinion?
How do you yourself account for the body being moved at different times?
Did the stairs lead ONLY to his room?
What about the student who reported his bedroom door being opened?
You mentioned no police presence as was scheduled. Was that a point of contention between the community and the police?


I think a major matter is that the doors have no locks on them. Whoever the killer was either had prior knowledge of that or discovered it during/after the act. Coming back was brazen enough but this person must have known they couldn't linger in the room for too long. Why come back and spend time moving the body?
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Old 03-17-2010, 07:40 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by Corky Kneivel
I can only speak for myself in saying that I accepted at face value UM's claim that the school was secretive and non-cooperative. They made it a point to portray Yeshivas that way and, what with the improbably circumstances of the murder going unsolved, it seemed that way. From what you've said though there was much more cooperation than we would have ben led to believe.

Thank you for being so open and honest and indulging these questions, I've been curious about this horrible crime for a long time. Also please excuse the quizzing and the ignorance of yours and Travenian's culture but its a million miles, figuratively, from how I grew up so i'm a little curious.

Taking into account what you've said above I am assuming that its your opinion that the murderer wandered in off the street, through the broken door, & up the stairs to Chaim's room?
Was that the prevailing opinion throughout the school?
If my assumption is incorrect what's your opinion?
How do you yourself account for the body being moved at different times?
Did the stairs lead ONLY to his room?
What about the student who reported his bedroom door being opened?
You mentioned no police presence as was scheduled. Was that a point of contention between the community and the police?

I think a major matter is that the doors have no locks on them. Whoever the killer was either had prior knowledge of that or discovered it during/after the act. Coming back was brazen enough but this person must have known they couldn't linger in the room for too long. Why come back and spend time moving the body?
Corky,

You make some good points and ask some good questions. However, please keep an open mind. With respect to UM portraying the Yeshiva as secretive and uncooperative - What would you expect? The world at large cannot undertand orthodox judaism, and therefore believe that most of our actions are mystical and secretive. (It also makes for great TV!) As you may know, the media ia not always 100% accurate. I saw the relevant UM episode and it was about 80% accurate. That's amazingly good, and much more accurate than alot of the original reporting. However, that leaves about 20% of the material inaccurately portrayed.

With respect to the Yeshiva, without defending them, how would you define "cooperative?" They insisted every student submit to a polygraph administered by the police, every student had to be available at any time to answer any of the detective's questions, the police were at the school for months, and the entire dorm building was shut down and available to the police for the remainder of the year. I think that's being cooperative.

There were some internal politics between some of the faculty, dealing with academic matters, that was serious enough to go to religious arbitration. The police were so pissed that they weren't made aware of it and accused the school of being uncooperative! The matter wasn't hidden or kept secret - every single student in the school was aware of it, it just wasn't relevant! I remember when the detective blew up over it. It left the entire student body scratching their heads, "like, you got to be kidding me!"

With respect to your other questions, was it someone from outside? very probable. It was the night of Halloween, the movie Halloween was on TV that night, and the expression "kill the jews" has been used and acted upon pretty often throughout world history. It could easily have been two punks on a dare. It could just as well have been a lunatic who had some vendetta against Chaim's family. At this point, I don't think we'll ever know.

Why was the body moved? Probably the most difficult question. It was moved during the night, and at least 45 minutes after the actual murder. The only answer I can think of, (and I've thought this over for over 20 years) is that the murderer forgot something and came back for it. Extremely risky, but infinitely less risky than leaving whatever it was behind.

As an aside, I believe more than one person heard their door open. The one student that I remember that definitely heard his door open, was more than halfway down the hall. The student was definitely not lying. (Take my word for it.) However, it is possible he misheard. I.e., either he never heard anything, and was simply mistaken, for example, it was part of his dream. Or he was hearing the sounds of the murder down the hall, and thought he was hearing his door open. Either way, he said that he immediately rolled over and went back to sleep. (One other student woke in the middle of the night to a noise, assumed it was his roomate snoring, and then went back to sleep as well.) In either case, it adds nothing to the analysis. However, if his door was opened, it would lend to the theory of an outsider who came in, targeting Chaim in particular.
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Old 03-17-2010, 09:56 PM   #65
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Thanks so much for posting ccmmze and letting us know more facts and your insight. Only having watched the UM segment we aren't privy to 100% of the facts. I do agree that I think this could have definitely been a random act of violence now thinking that it was Halloween night. I'm curious what are your thoughts about the candle that was left burning in Chaim's room. Do you think the killer lit it? I think if he did it wouldn't have been an anti-semitic act for that seems to indicate respect for the religion. Unless of course, he was doing it to confuse the police.
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Old 03-17-2010, 10:02 PM   #66
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ccmmze, I want to thank you for posting as well. As for crystaldawn's question, was there even a candle left burning in the room? Or was that made up as well?

This may sound like a very obvious question as well but weren't you or any other students nervous about staying in the dorm after the murder?

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I can't think of any student that would have enough animosity to kill him.
I never thought it was a student, I thought it was an outsider.
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Old 03-18-2010, 11:32 AM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ccmmze
Corky,

You make some good points and ask some good questions. However, please keep an open mind. With respect to UM portraying the Yeshiva as secretive and uncooperative - What would you expect? The world at large cannot undertand orthodox judaism, and therefore believe that most of our actions are mystical and secretive. (It also makes for great TV!) As you may know, the media ia not always 100% accurate. I saw the relevant UM episode and it was about 80% accurate. That's amazingly good, and much more accurate than alot of the original reporting. However, that leaves about 20% of the material inaccurately portrayed.

With respect to the Yeshiva, without defending them, how would you define "cooperative?" They insisted every student submit to a polygraph administered by the police, every student had to be available at any time to answer any of the detective's questions, the police were at the school for months, and the entire dorm building was shut down and available to the police for the remainder of the year. I think that's being cooperative.

There were some internal politics between some of the faculty, dealing with academic matters, that was serious enough to go to religious arbitration. The police were so pissed that they weren't made aware of it and accused the school of being uncooperative! The matter wasn't hidden or kept secret - every single student in the school was aware of it, it just wasn't relevant! I remember when the detective blew up over it. It left the entire student body scratching their heads, "like, you got to be kidding me!"

With respect to your other questions, was it someone from outside? very probable. It was the night of Halloween, the movie Halloween was on TV that night, and the expression "kill the jews" has been used and acted upon pretty often throughout world history. It could easily have been two punks on a dare. It could just as well have been a lunatic who had some vendetta against Chaim's family. At this point, I don't think we'll ever know.

Why was the body moved? Probably the most difficult question. It was moved during the night, and at least 45 minutes after the actual murder. The only answer I can think of, (and I've thought this over for over 20 years) is that the murderer forgot something and came back for it. Extremely risky, but infinitely less risky than leaving whatever it was behind.

As an aside, I believe more than one person heard their door open. The one student that I remember that definitely heard his door open, was more than halfway down the hall. The student was definitely not lying. (Take my word for it.) However, it is possible he misheard. I.e., either he never heard anything, and was simply mistaken, for example, it was part of his dream. Or he was hearing the sounds of the murder down the hall, and thought he was hearing his door open. Either way, he said that he immediately rolled over and went back to sleep. (One other student woke in the middle of the night to a noise, assumed it was his roomate snoring, and then went back to sleep as well.) In either case, it adds nothing to the analysis. However, if his door was opened, it would lend to the theory of an outsider who came in, targeting Chaim in particular.
ccmmze, thanks for posting here. This case has always been one of the most "popular" UM cases in terms of interest, probably because of how scary and tragic the circumstances were. It's hard to believe anyone would want to do that to a 16 year old kid.

Your new information raises some important questions:

1) Apparently, the administration of this school felt they had something to fear from the neighborhood. Were previous and/or subsequent mischief nights problematic, or was it just this one time? Were there ever any other times of year when the school was targeted by anti-Semites? Can you relate any other incidents?

2) If the administration of the school was concerned enough to ask for a police car to be posted outside the school, why did they NOT make sure to have a broken lock fixed, especially in time for mischief night, which seems to have been a particular concern? This seems like a glaring inconsistency in attitude; a locksmith could fix a broken lock in an afternoon. If there was enough consternation about the neighborhood surrounding the school and potential incidents to motivate them to ask for a police car to watch the school all night, why weren't they motivated enough to get a locksmith to come put a new lock on the door?

3) How difficult would it have been for a random person to enter and navigate the dorm, without causing enough of a disturbance to wake anyone enough that they got out of bed, and ultimately find one of only two boys with a single? If this was a random killer, it seems he got at least somewhat lucky. My question to you is: exactly how lucky did this person get?

4) Thanks for the information about how long of a time it was, minimally, between when Chaim was killed and when his body would have been moved the first time. But, if 45 minutes, minimally, had elapsed, isn't it very unlikely that the murderer was someone who otherwise had no business being in the school? Going back seems like a highly unusual thing to do, not to mention a terribly risky thing to do, for someone who only entered to kill Chaim in the first place. Any ideas of what he could have been looking for that would have ended up UNDER Chaim's body, necessitating that it be moved? I can't figure how the murder weapon would have gotten there.

5) If the person who murdered Chaim opened the window, indeed, to throw the murder weapon out of it, rather than for any particular religious reason, how likely would the crash that the noise made have been to be loud enough to people inside the dorm to wake them? Could you hear a lot of going on outside from these rooms, or not? And, if a random person had thrown a weapon out of Chaim's window, would he have had an easy time finding that weapon again once he got downstairs and outside? Was the area underneath Chaim's window easily accessible to an intruder?

It would be interesting to have answers to all of these questions.
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Old 03-18-2010, 11:43 AM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Corky Kneivel
This passage here (from rapunzel's post):

"In all probability, the offender would have had to have been close enough to know that Weiss' body had not been discovered before returning to the scene . . . Upon re-entry, the assailant found the room dark and raised the shade to provide additional light . . . Weiss' body was moved by the assailant, either to provide easier access to the window and shade or for the assailant to look under the body for anything incriminating left there. The window may have been opened by the assailant to discard some item which he later retrieved."

I base my opinion that the killer came back to the room and moved the body from the passage above because, as I read it, the investigative authorities (IA) based their opinion on the blood. I am assuming that they feel there was enough blood pooled in the bed and in the original spot on the floor to suppose that if anyone else but the killer had moved the body from the bed to the floor then the police would have been notified much earlier. I agree that a school official moved the body from its second location to its third and I think the IA do too as they give no explanation for it.

I'm saying that the IA saw enough blood in the bed to surmise that not only was the kill spot, but the body had lain there for a time. Then they saw another blood formation of such a significant amount and pattern they surmised that the body had lain there for a time as well. And that if a school official had been the one to move the body from the bed to the floor spot A, then from floor spot A to floor spot B, the amount of blood at floor spot A meant that school officials, or at least 'a' school official, had been aware of the murder for quite some time before the IA were even notified.

If only we knew the amount of blood pooled in each spot, along with its level of congealing, then you and I would probably be able to deduce which theory is more in accordance with the facts.
This is an older post of yours, Corky, in response to one of mine about who moved the body the FIRST time it was moved. I somehow never responded. You were responding to my thought that the person who originally found the body moved it the first time, but then moved it again, because blood seeped from the wound after the first move, and so it had to be moved again to prevent it from lying in its own blood. No matter who moved it the first time, this or something like it does appear to have been the motivation for moving it the second time, I think.

You raise some excellent points arguing for the notion that it was the killer, and not the person who found the body, who moved the body the first time, and I could be persuaded to your way of thinking; the only thing is, we now apparently know that at least 45 minutes elapsed between the murder and the FIRST time the body was moved. That's an awfully long time, and it certainly suggests that, if the killer did it, he came back after having left and did it. That seems to me to be an awfully risky thing to do, but it certainly could be the case. I don't know; I'm torn now.

Also, I'd like to point out that I like the point made earlier in this thread by another poster (TracyLynnS, I believe) suggesting that the apparent "frenzied" nature of the killing might really be the result of an inexperienced killer simply over-doing it in a panicked attempt to ensure that his or her victim was, in fact, dead.
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Old 03-18-2010, 01:06 PM   #69
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I've just seen this case recently and I love the music featured in it. I also heard the same music on another "jewish" type case.
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Old 03-18-2010, 01:42 PM   #70
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Quote:
5) If the person who murdered Chaim opened the window, indeed, to throw the murder weapon out of it, rather than for any particular religious reason, how likely would the crash that the noise made have been to be loud enough to people inside the dorm to wake them? Could you hear a lot of going on outside from these rooms, or not? And, if a random person had thrown a weapon out of Chaim's window, would he have had an easy time finding that weapon again once he got downstairs and outside? Was the area underneath Chaim's window easily accessible to an intruder?
1. He may not have had to throw the weapon away. It may have been something that he could holster or pocket like a wrench, knife, flashlight, hammer, gun or baton..He may have worn a tool belt or was wearing a holtster(which is a frightening and disturbing thought). Can it be completely ruled out that a gun inflicted the blow? I've seen the blunt of knives capable of doing servere damage.

2. The murder weapon may have been something he needed to keep. For example a flashlight. Or a gun he mentioned.

Quote:
Any ideas of what he could have been looking for that would have ended up UNDER Chaim's body, necessitating that it be moved?
1. A piece of decoration or insignia? (like a badge, religious adornment, name tag, golden pips...)
2. A common racist notion is that all Jews are rich hoarders..perhaps this guy in his ignorance was hoping to find money or some valuables.

I don;t know why he needs to move the body twice in order get something. Pushing Chaim over a little would be sufficient. I also like you, don;t know how anything would get under there unless he was already planning to move Chaim and it fell under.

3. maybe he moved the body because he was attempting to molest Chaim...but was suddenly interrupted.


Quote:
Also, I'd like to point out that I like the point made earlier in this thread by another poster (TracyLynnS, I believe) suggesting that the apparent "frenzied" nature of the killing might really be the result of an inexperienced killer simply over-doing it in a panicked attempt to ensure that his or her victim was, in fact, dead.
Wasn't Chaim struck only once? Why would that seem frenzied?
The victim was 16 year-old Chaim Weiss. A single blow to his skull with a sharp object had severed his spinal column.

I think the fact that Chaim was struck only once indicates a lot in this case. It almost seems that whoever killed him wasn;t intending to kill him. Perhaps only knock him unconcious.

Quote:
If the administration of the school was concerned enough to ask for a police car to be posted outside the school, why did they NOT make sure to have a broken lock fixed, especially in time for mischief night, which seems to have been a particular concern?
Not to get conspiratorial here..but I think it's quite possible the lock was damaged on purpose to bolster the intruder theory.

Quote:
3) How difficult would it have been for a random person to enter and navigate the dorm, without causing enough of a disturbance to wake anyone enough that they got out of bed, and ultimately find one of only two boys with a single? If this was a random killer, it seems he got at least somewhat lucky. My question to you is: exactly how lucky did this person get?
Depends on his criminal background. If he's a career burgular (which he might be to be able to scale the building) he might be used to moving around houses in the dark.

Unlike a burgular...the killer does have an advantage in that he's not looking for hiding places for valuables...he's looking to find a kid to kill.

Dorm rooms can be pretty generic if you think about it. It;s not like breaking into someones high rise apartment where the layout could vary tremendously.

That being said, i do agree that the killer has to have some prior knowledge of the school's layout.

Quote:
1) Apparently, the administration of this school felt they had something to fear from the neighborhood. Were previous and/or subsequent mischief nights problematic, or was it just this one time? Were there ever any other times of year when the school was targeted by anti-Semites? Can you relate any other incidents?
Here's the problem with the Anti-Semetic attack theory...

You;d think that if an Anti-Semite could break into the Yeshiva school..that he would do a lot more than kill one kid with a single blow.

Why didn't he..
1. Throw a malotov cocktail into the dorms and try to kill multiple students in an "Alabama bombing" type attack?

2. Why not try to deface the place with Swastika's.

3. Why not try to assasinate several Rabbi's with a gun.

Not trying to be funny here...but it seems like a waste of an opportunity to just kill one kid.
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Old 03-18-2010, 03:36 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by Mastermind


Wasn't Chaim struck only once? Why would that seem frenzied?
The victim was 16 year-old Chaim Weiss. A single blow to his skull with a sharp object had severed his spinal column.

I think the fact that Chaim was struck only once indicates a lot in this case. It almost seems that whoever killed him wasn;t intending to kill him. Perhaps only knock him unconcious.



Not to get conspiratorial here..but I think it's quite possible the lock was damaged on purpose to bolster the intruder theory.
But wouldn't you think a single blow to the head would indicate an intruder? If the killer has some personal vendetta against Chaim, then he would have been full of rage and inevitably strike him several times. I know crimes of passion usually entail overkill, so to speak, and I would expect the same if the killer was a teenager that was angry with Chaim.
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Old 03-18-2010, 03:39 PM   #72
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I believe the FBI report on the case indicated there were multiple blows.

EDIT: From an earlier post by rapunzel:

Quote:
Originally Posted by rapunzel
Early reports gave the cause of death as bludgeoning, probably because of the extensive damage to the victim's skull (a doctor close to the case reportedly compared it to a broken eggshell), but at autopsy Chaim was found to have multiple stab wounds on the right side of his head, neck and face, with lacerations of the brain. The first blow, which struck his right temple and penetrated his brain, had been sufficient to cause instant death.

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Old 03-18-2010, 04:34 PM   #73
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I believe the FBI report on the case indicated there were multiple blows.

EDIT: From an earlier post by rapunzel:

Quote:
Originally Posted by rapunzel
Early reports gave the cause of death as bludgeoning, probably because of the extensive damage to the victim's skull (a doctor close to the case reportedly compared it to a broken eggshell), but at autopsy Chaim was found to have multiple stab wounds on the right side of his head, neck and face, with lacerations of the brain. The first blow, which struck his right temple and penetrated his brain, had been sufficient to cause instant death.
Anyone have a link to the FBI report?
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Old 03-18-2010, 04:35 PM   #74
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Why is the FBI involved in Chaim's death?

Hate Crime?
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Old 03-18-2010, 04:44 PM   #75
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But wouldn't you think a single blow to the head would indicate an intruder?
Usually if you have intent to kill someone, your going to want to strike someone more than once to make sure that they are dead. You can;t have confidence that one blow is going to do the trick.

A single blow at times indicates a non-intentional or even accidental strike, since the killer had no desire to strike again on the victim.

A single blow would indicate that the attacker saw the damage he did and was too horrified to continue striking.

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