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Old 11-30-2011, 01:21 PM   #136
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I assume it was included to add that "mystique" to the segment, since there was apparently nothing to go on.
Yeah, I thought that was kinda dumb. They probably left and came back on their own on all the time. My dad attended yeshiva and he said he snuck and was never caught
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Old 11-30-2011, 01:45 PM   #137
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Here is some theories I have come up with:

1. A possible homosexual relationship with another student, and in fear of ridicule and humiliation, the student murdered Chaim to hide the relationship.
2. Usually when sharp objects are used in assaults/killings, that being stabbing or slashing, usually points toward the victim having known the killer and the murder a personal motive/passion killing.
3. Someone was jealous of Chaim's achievements in class and did away with him

This is just what I think though, no real truth to them but again the case is unsolved so we can't close any doors on any of the possibilities.
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Old 11-30-2011, 05:21 PM   #138
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Also, someone brought up the point that law enforcement did not investigate former workers. That is completely false. They investigated everyone under the sun. That's why this case is so perplexing.
We would have no way of knowing who, and how extensively LE questioned anyone from a ten minute Unsolved Mysteries segment. Everything on here is pure speculation since we don't have much to go on. I wonder why LE ruled out the former employee, perhaps the language barrier prevented them from finding out about his anti-semitic views.
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Old 11-30-2011, 08:54 PM   #139
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I feel I should chime in again. The last post got me interested.

Please read my long post on page 8, as much of what the last few posters brought up is easily refuted. The "mystique" issue and the student spotted on the boardwalk were discussed in detail.

As for the homosexual angle, that is ABSOLUTE NONSENSE. I explained why on page 8.

As for jealousy over academic achievement, the school was generally known as the "Harvard" of Orthodox Jewish high schools. The school only recruited the best and brightest. They were ALL geniuses.

I maintain my belief that the suspect I described on page 9 was the true killer. He had a possible motive, exhibited hatred toward Jews and a deranged psyche. A disgruntled former worker has been the source of many crimes in history.

Also, someone brought up the point that law enforcement did not investigate former workers. That is completely false. They investigated everyone under the sun. That's why this case is so perplexing.

Lt. Nolan of the Nassau County PD claimed that the students, faculty, former and current workers were eventually tracked down and talked with at great length. He did what the Long Beach PD did and blamed it on "the Orthodox Jews not talking because they have certain beliefs."
Again, read my posts on page 8 and 9. Thanks.
alright...but each entitled to our own opinion(s), right?
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Old 11-30-2011, 09:28 PM   #140
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I don't think you can rule out that it may have been related to sexual activity. In any all-male situation, with young boys, there can be experimentation. I don't see Yeshiva being significantly different than any other boarding school - as noted above, they are just like other kids, they just happen to be orthodox and bright

There are no shortage of straight people who had their first experience with sex be with the same gender in the early teen years.

To dismiss it as ABSOLUTE NONSENSE seems unfounded and defensive. Sex and money are always reasonable motives in any murder.
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Old 12-01-2011, 05:58 AM   #141
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I don't think you can rule out that it may have been related to sexual activity. In any all-male situation, with young boys, there can be experimentation. I don't see Yeshiva being significantly different than any other boarding school - as noted above, they are just like other kids, they just happen to be orthodox and bright

There are no shortage of straight people who had their first experience with sex be with the same gender in the early teen years.

To dismiss it as ABSOLUTE NONSENSE seems unfounded and defensive. Sex and money are always reasonable motives in any murder.
It is possible that a sexual relationship happened, but is it probable? No. Like RZ said, there just was not any privacy. He was a 15 year old Orthodox Jew, and honestly, he probably did not even know what being "gay" was. I was raised Orthodox Jew (though I am no longer actively religious) and my father told me that gay was something people were in Europe (I have to hold back laughter when I type this, it reminds me so much of a Roseanne episode). I had no clue that gay couples even existed. Yes, I was extremely sheltered, but it just was not part of our world. I have a friend who turned out to be a lesbian, and like me, raised Jewish, and she said when she was a teen, she did not even know. It was not until she broke out into the world that she discovered who she was. Again, may not have been Chaim's experience, but this it is more likely that the community was even more conservative back then (our community was quite modern!). Plus, it seems pretty evident to me that whoever killed him HATED him or his family. This does not seem like the murder by a scorned lover, and I do not think any of the students had anything to do with it.
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Old 12-01-2011, 12:53 PM   #142
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I think of the Ramsey murder. How the ransom note eerily requested an amount that was exactly what her father had been given as a Christmas bonus ($118,000). I'm sure that whoever killed her (and DNA suggested that it was not a male related to the Ramsey family) was jealous of Mr. Ramsey, a millionaire executive living in enormous mansions in Atlanta and Boulder with a picturesque family.

Maybe Mr. Weiss had some jealous detractors who decided to get even with him? I don't know.
Possible. Such motives are reasonable as far as jealousy over wealth and possibly even business success are concerned.

However, I don't think we should lose sight of the fact that the murderer knew the layout of the Yeshiva. That alone points to an inside job, in my opinion.
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Old 12-04-2011, 09:54 PM   #143
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I recently asked two different former students whether Chaim had "a sharp tongue." I ask each one separately and they both dismissed this characterization. They said they absolutely do not remember him that way. Another former student who posted here claimed the same thing.

I am wondering whether our collective analysis is wrong and we took the same path the police did. We're all trying to figure out why someone would want to kill Chaim, but what if the killer simply wanted to kill someone out of revenge against the Mesivta of Long Beach. I think the question we should ask is who hated the school so much that he (or possibly she) would want to harm one of the students.

I also asked about the Polish laborers. Both former students claimed that they spoke no English at all and had very little contact with the students.

In all actuality, this could have been the random act of a Neo-Nazi who had skulked around the premises at night while everyone slept. Haven't you people ever heard of trespassing? I know I've been to closed off areas before and walked around without anyone ever finding out. You all have to remember a key fact: the back door, which had a staircase leading to Chaim's room, was broken. It really could have been an outsider. Let's not hastily dismiss this possibility.

Also, both former students insist that at no time had they ever suspected one of the students. There was no reason to do so. Chaim was very popular and well-liked. No one in the school held a grudge against him, which is why this is so puzzling.

That is why I am beginning to wonder whether this may have been an act against the school, not Chaim personally.
Interesting theories... I've always wondered if it could have been either a case of mistaken identity (like Chaim didn't really sass off to the Polish guy but he THOUGHT it was Chaim) or...

What if Chaim saw something he shouldn't have? It could have been a student stealing something, two students "fooling around" sexually, two teachers or a teacher & student fooling around, someone buying/selling/taking drugs... who knows. But it almost seems to me like one of the only ways a nice kid like that would be killed in such a horrible way is if he saw something he shouldn't and that person panicked.

Picture this: someone is in the hallway or one of the rooms doing "whatever" illegally, when Chaim walks by. They make eye contact, Chaim says "I didn't see anything!" and runs off. Said person chases him into his room, panicks thinking Chaim will turn him in, and rage kills him.

It might be a little out there, but honestly it's about as plausible as anything at this point. What do you think, RebZissel?
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Old 12-04-2011, 10:22 PM   #144
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I don't think you can rule out that it may have been related to sexual activity. In any all-male situation, with young boys, there can be experimentation. I don't see Yeshiva being significantly different than any other boarding school - as noted above, they are just like other kids, they just happen to be orthodox and bright

There are no shortage of straight people who had their first experience with sex be with the same gender in the early teen years.

To dismiss it as ABSOLUTE NONSENSE seems unfounded and defensive. Sex and money are always reasonable motives in any murder.
Aside from all the other reasons people have outlined that this probably isn't true, you got to keep in mind as well the year this happened. This was in 1986, and I think you are looking at it with 2011 eyes. Such things were not all that common back then. Thats not to say it didn't happen, but the world has become a lot more liberal in the last 25 years, not that thats a good thing, but just saying.

Bottom line is here, you got a boy brutally murdered, and its a stretch to say it has something to do with some sort of homosexual affair without more information than what we have.

Could it have happened? Yeah about anything is possible. I just don't think its very likely.
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Old 12-04-2011, 10:36 PM   #145
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Interesting theories... I've always wondered if it could have been either a case of mistaken identity (like Chaim didn't really sass off to the Polish guy but he THOUGHT it was Chaim) or...

What if Chaim saw something he shouldn't have? It could have been a student stealing something, two students "fooling around" sexually, two teachers or a teacher & student fooling around, someone buying/selling/taking drugs... who knows. But it almost seems to me like one of the only ways a nice kid like that would be killed in such a horrible way is if he saw something he shouldn't and that person panicked.

Picture this: someone is in the hallway or one of the rooms doing "whatever" illegally, when Chaim walks by. They make eye contact, Chaim says "I didn't see anything!" and runs off. Said person chases him into his room, panicks thinking Chaim will turn him in, and rage kills him.

It might be a little out there, but honestly it's about as plausible as anything at this point. What do you think,
RebZissel?
I don't see how it could have happened like this, for a couple of reasons:

1. If a couple of these kids were doing something naughty, whatever it may have been that they didn't want anyone to know about, don't you think they would have had the good sense to close the door, or not do it in the middle of the hallway where they could be seen by a fifteen other students not to mention any teachers who might come up?

2. If a couple of kids chased Chaim down like this and tried to murder him, don't you think he would have screamed bloody murder loud enough to wake the whole place? Apparently nothing was heard.

The only way this murder could have gone down is someone sneaking in and killing Chaim in his sleep, and thats what the evidence showed. Thats the only way it could have been done in a building where there were fifty other people, if someone had attacked Chaim when he was awake he would have screamed and the whole place would have been woke up.
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Old 12-04-2011, 11:39 PM   #146
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I don't see how it could have happened like this, for a couple of reasons:

1. If a couple of these kids were doing something naughty, whatever it may have been that they didn't want anyone to know about, don't you think they would have had the good sense to close the door, or not do it in the middle of the hallway where they could be seen by a fifteen other students not to mention any teachers who might come up?

2. If a couple of kids chased Chaim down like this and tried to murder him, don't you think he would have screamed bloody murder loud enough to wake the whole place? Apparently nothing was heard.

The only way this murder could have gone down is someone sneaking in and killing Chaim in his sleep, and thats what the evidence showed. Thats the only way it could have been done in a building where there were fifty other people, if someone had attacked Chaim when he was awake he would have screamed and the whole place would have been woke up.

Good points. Unless maybe he saw something, or they THOUGHT he saw/knew something he shouldn't, and then that person came back later and killed him in his sleep.

But your comments do tend to point to more the of the targeted murder. Huh. Such a sad, strange case.
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Old 12-05-2011, 12:05 AM   #147
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Good points. Unless maybe he saw something, or they THOUGHT he saw/knew something he shouldn't, and then that person came back later and killed him in his sleep.

But your comments do tend to point to more the of the targeted murder. Huh. Such a sad, strange case.
Oh yeah, I wasn't disputing your theory that Chaim could have been killed for seeing something someone didn't want him to. Thats very possible.

I just didn't see how that scenario of the how the murder actually occured could have happened.

Even if Chaim was attacked in his sleep, which like I said I see no other way it could have gone down since no one heard a struggle or anything, I've always been struck how brazen this crime was. Especially if an outsider did it. To sneak into a building with all those potential witnesses and kill someone is very risky.

Something I do wonder is whether or not those dorm rooms had their own bathrooms? If they didn't and there was one down the hall used by everyone on the floor, someone getting up to go to the bathroom could have seen this guy, their could have been a night owl among the students or teachers who liked to stay up. especially since this was a Friday night. Any number of possible things.

Thats why I think if it was an outsider, it had to be someone familiar with not only the layout but the habits of the people in the school. Either that or the perp was extremely lucky.
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Old 12-05-2011, 05:39 PM   #148
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So Reb, are you saying that being a homosexual male means that you are incapable of also being a gifted theological scholar?

These were teenagers. No matter how rigorous their academic prowess, hormones played a part in their behavior at some point. To pretend otherwise is ignorant and naive.

It doesn't have to be a relationship, and it doesn't mean he or anyone was gay. The fact is that teenagers experiment, which is likely a result of hormones, not culture. Put any single sex group together and you will have same sex experimenting. Many straight people had their first experiences messing around with the same sex.

When your hormones are raging, things happen.

If the killing was sexual in nature, perhaps a senior staff type had made a play and been rebuffed, and was afraid of being ratted out.
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Old 12-05-2011, 06:37 PM   #149
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Kitka,

If what you say is true, do you think a 15 year old Orthodox Jewish boy who killed one of his own classmates because of homosexual experimentation gone wrong, which would torment the religiously influenced conscience of any religious Jew because of the acute awareness that this murderous and homosexual behavior is wrong, could fool veteran detectives, beat a polygraph exam conducted by an experienced expert, and not crack under pressure?

Lt. Nolan and Don Daly had 60 years experience between the two of them. Don't you think these two would have uncovered such a thing after months of investigating every imaginable facet and dimension of the crime? Don't you think that the veteran detectives were smarter than a 15 year old boy?

If the 15 year old did it, then he must be the most clever and emotionally restrained person in history.
Maybe the kid completely devoid of a conscience and bluffed his way through, seeming earnest? If he was able to kill, perhaps his conscience was incapable of torment.

There is no doubt that certain scenarios are more likely than not, but there seems to be very little to go on in this case. The fact that the crime scene seemed to be overkill is kind of interesting.

I'd love to hear what a top profiler or someone like the Vidocq (sp) society would say about this. They are often pretty good on nailing intruder/stranger etc.
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Old 12-06-2011, 01:15 PM   #150
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Rob,

I tend to think that however this played out was highly unlikely, if that makes sense.

If the truth were discovered, everyone would be a bit surprised. Parts of the evidence are kind of inconsistent with most theories, and also consistent. It doesn't seem to be a pat situation.
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