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Old 08-07-2019, 09:08 PM   #16
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For those who have had a chance to watch/study the actual video, any theories as to why LE kept it from the public for so long?
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Old 08-07-2019, 09:44 PM   #17
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I couldn't find it, but I didn't look real hard either. Another key moment would be the thief using a moving dolly to transport a bag that may have contained the platinum or Dale Kerstetter

One clue that might help is the camera angles.

Camera angle 1 is where (I'm guessing) the thief returns to steal the platinum at 00:39:01:11.

Camera angle 2 is where the thief and Dale interact at 00:13:09:03

Camera angle 3 appears to be a long shot of some kind of hallway or corridor.

Assuming the re-eanctements shown on UM are accurate (which it looks like they are) the moving dolly bit would be on camera 3 and the thief pacing would be on camera 2. Unfortunately, camera 2 has extreme grain, especially in the background where I'm guessing the thief would be visible. It may not be possible to see him on this version of the tape due to the poor quality.
I just reviewed the UM segment for some reference. They show the thief pacing, Dale meeting the thief, and the dolly, all in the same place (camera 2 as you noted).The only indication they give of another camera angle showing the thief going after the platinum offers a possible third angle. However, other than making that portion black and white, UM did little to make it appear the same as the rest of the footage. So that one alone Iíd take with a grain of salt. However, I assume it is likely close to the footage in that instance as well.

The dramatic portions of the re-enactment (meaning portions that are not recreations of the tape) show a few more angles. According to Daleís daughter in the main thread on this case, UM used the actual location to film.

Of note however is when they show the Corning Security chief reviewing the tape, it does show a flipping sequence on the monitor he is watching. It seems to match what we are now seeing but the camera lingers on each sequence longer than in this tape. I am not certain if this little snippet shows the recreated footage or if we are seeing video from the actual cameras in that particular bit. It only shows the empty factory so it is difficult to tell. From what I see though, I believe this too was recreated for the segment. The angles match the recreated footage more than the real footage.

I also found it strange that UM recreated everything as accurately as they did, but still have the masked man behind and to Daleís left (right side of the screen), whereas the real footage has him on Daleís right (left of Dale on the screen). If the man was holding a gun to Daleís back, this indicates the man was left handed. Did UM goof? Or I wonder if that was a fact they were withholding at the time?

In any case the body language seen on the real video to me seems to be more obvious that Dale is being coerced. The man is slightly further behind Dale and appears to be in such a posture as to be holding a weapon, presumably a gun, to Daleís back. As muddy as the footage is, Dale seems to be scared as far as I can tell.
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Old 08-07-2019, 09:54 PM   #18
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For those who have had a chance to watch/study the actual video, any theories as to why LE kept it from the public for so long?
The footage has degraded so badly that it would not be helpful in doing much for the case so itís hard to tell. The only thing I can see is that the real footage could possibly indicate the masked man as being left handed where the UM recreation could indicate him being right handed). But that seems a stretch as to being the reason they would withhold it so long.

Short answer: itís hard to tell
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Old 08-07-2019, 10:22 PM   #19
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For those who have had a chance to watch/study the actual video, any theories as to why LE kept it from the public for so long?
I have to imagine a lot of it comes from the fact that it is hard to see and hard to get an accurate picture, so it probably has less value to the general public. With that said, this was the best evidence they had and there may have been some value in not showing the exact video to the public. I don't see anything that is remarkable, but LE must have. That's my best guess.
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Old 08-07-2019, 10:45 PM   #20
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I have to imagine a lot of it comes from the fact that it is hard to see and hard to get an accurate picture, so it probably has less value to the general public. With that said, this was the best evidence they had and there may have been some value in not showing the exact video to the public. I don't see anything that is remarkable, but LE must have. That's my best guess.
Agreed. Also, it is a video picture that has 3 cameras feeding into it. Each camera shows its display for literally 1 second at a time (I checked). This was used back in the day (and really up to the digital era) to conserve the video tape being used. Standard VHS tapes if left recording continuously only had up to 6-8 hours of tape on them at the slowest speed. But this slower speed also gave a lower quality recording. I have no idea what speed they recorded this at. The frames that are clear, although very dark, are quite clear for what you might expect. Surveillance videos from then would have the recorder do rapid bursts of a few frames at a time. So if even just one camera was used, it would give a very jerky motion to anyone seen moving in it as it was basically missing frames.

But as far as watching it more than frame by frame, it is almost like trying to consistently watch a strobe light. Add to that the degraded video and the bit of static that video from that time had when switching inputs and it is quite frustrating to watch. UM likely recreated the sequences just to give a more fluid video.
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Old 08-07-2019, 10:54 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by justins5256 View Post
I couldn't find it, but I didn't look real hard either. Another key moment would be the thief using a moving dolly to transport a bag that may have contained the platinum or Dale Kerstetter

One clue that might help is the camera angles.

Camera angle 1 is where (I'm guessing) the thief returns to steal the platinum at 00:39:01:11.

Camera angle 2 is where the thief and Dale interact at 00:13:09:03

Camera angle 3 appears to be a long shot of some kind of hallway or corridor.

Assuming the re-eanctements shown on UM are accurate (which it looks like they are) the moving dolly bit would be on camera 3 and the thief pacing would be on camera 2. Unfortunately, camera 2 has extreme grain, especially in the background where I'm guessing the thief would be visible. It may not be possible to see him on this version of the tape due to the poor quality.
Ok, I'm literally going through this frame by frame. It makes sense to me that if the cameras were running continuously through the night, that the police have this file edited to start at the first sign of anything irregular. So my guess is that the masked man has to be shortly after the start of the footage. This being said, he is wearing very dark clothing as we can see from the known places he shows up on the tape. So far, I think I may have spotted some movement that could be consistent with a person pacing at time index 00:55:20. So just under a minute into the footage. It is on the right side of the screen and just above where Dale is later seen walking with the man. I'm not certain, but I think this may be the pacing sequence.
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Old 08-07-2019, 11:25 PM   #22
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For those unable to view, here is a screen shot of what the video shows. This is from the supposed "looking at the camera" frame. As you can see, this is pretty poor quality. This is one of the better quality images from the footage as well. I found this on facebook and its possible the person posting enhanced it slightly. I also lightened it and increased the contrast myself. This makes a little more detail visible.
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Old 08-07-2019, 11:36 PM   #23
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For those unable to view, here is a screen shot of what the video shows. This is from the supposed "looking at the camera" frame. As you can see, this is pretty poor quality. This is one of the better quality images from the footage as well. I found this on facebook and its possible the person posting enhanced it slightly. I also lightened it and increased the contrast myself. This makes a little more detail visible.
I can still hear RS voice saying something like the police have asked us not to show the tape.

But that said, to finally see it as it happened, however poor the quality ... mind blowing in a good way... eerie and haunting all at the same time. Thank you.
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Old 08-08-2019, 12:08 AM   #24
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For those who have had a chance to watch/study the actual video, any theories as to why LE kept it from the public for so long?
To be honest, I have no idea. As some posters have pointed out, it could be that there was something in the original footage that we can't see in the current form of the footage due to the extremely poor quality.

Working off that, the cynic in me wonders if the police held the footage back for so many years just to avoid potential legal hassles, but now that so much time has passed and perhaps upon a recent review of the footage, they decided what the Hell?

Apparently, an earlier request for the footage was rejected.

https://www.muckrock.com/foi/pennsyl...ssworks-68538/

Then the police released the footage, but cited the poor quality...

https://www.muckrock.com/foi/bradfor...5/#file-801454
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Old 08-08-2019, 12:18 AM   #25
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Here is another from the other camera view. This is where the pipe was taken from according to the show. The camera angle here is so spot on, I almost wonder if they used the surveillance camera mount to place the UM camera on.

This one is very washed out. All views from this camera look this way. It almost appears like an infrared night vision camera being used in daylight. However, in this case I believe it is just the light reflecting off the kiln along with the poor quality of the old tape.

The screen capture on this one seems to squish the picture into the space on here making it taller than it should be. But the person is still quite clear. This would be from the portion in the segment just prior to the thief hopping up on top of the machinery.
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Old 08-08-2019, 12:27 AM   #26
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I just reviewed the UM segment for some reference. They show the thief pacing, Dale meeting the thief, and the dolly, all in the same place (camera 2 as you noted).The only indication they give of another camera angle showing the thief going after the platinum offers a possible third angle. However, other than making that portion black and white, UM did little to make it appear the same as the rest of the footage. So that one alone I’d take with a grain of salt. However, I assume it is likely close to the footage in that instance as well.
Thanks for the correction. I just watched the UM segment myself and you are right. All of the re-enactments of the footage itself appear to be from camera 2. Though it is hinted at the possibility of another angle of the thief stealing the platinum (camera 1) which seems to match what we see on the actual tapes.

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The dramatic portions of the re-enactment (meaning portions that are not recreations of the tape) show a few more angles. According to Dale’s daughter in the main thread on this case, UM used the actual location to film.
That would appear to the case. The view from the real camera 2 is eerily similar to UM's reenactment of the thief and Kerstetter interacting.

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Of note however is when they show the Corning Security chief reviewing the tape, it does show a flipping sequence on the monitor he is watching. It seems to match what we are now seeing but the camera lingers on each sequence longer than in this tape. I am not certain if this little snippet shows the recreated footage or if we are seeing video from the actual cameras in that particular bit. It only shows the empty factory so it is difficult to tell. From what I see though, I believe this too was recreated for the segment. The angles match the recreated footage more than the real footage.
With respect to the scenes of the security staff watching the footage, it does seem (to my eyes, at least) to mirror the re-enactments, not the real footage.

It is also worth noting that perhaps if the tape was played on the original deck it was recorded on, the playback would be slowed to provide a smoother visual. I still think a part of the problem is that we don't know the speed the footage was originally recorded at. However, it appears to be considerably slower than real time since the footage spans about 4 hours of continuous clock time as indicated by the timestamp on the video, yet the "real" time (i.e., length of the DVD) is only 1 hour and 24 minutes. This is also consistent with the surveillance technology of the era. This was clearly a VHS tape and it would be recorded at a much slower speed to conserve tape.

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I also found it strange that UM recreated everything as accurately as they did, but still have the masked man behind and to Dale’s left (right side of the screen), whereas the real footage has him on Dale’s right (left of Dale on the screen). If the man was holding a gun to Dale’s back, this indicates the man was left handed. Did UM goof? Or I wonder if that was a fact they were withholding at the time?
Hmmm. One oddity I noticed is that Stack mentioned in the narration that Dale's shift started at 11pm. Yet, if the time stamp is to be believed, he interacts with thief at 10:45pm. So, at least 15 minutes prior to the stat of his shift. Was Dale just strolling around the plant prior to the official start of his shift? and encountered the thief?

Something else that occurred to me, are we sure that this sequence is, in fact, Dale and the thief leaving together? The thief is pretty hard to see, assuming he is there. Dale is pretty clear, however.

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In any case the body language seen on the real video to me seems to be more obvious that Dale is being coerced. The man is slightly further behind Dale and appears to be in such a posture as to be holding a weapon, presumably a gun, to Dale’s back. As muddy as the footage is, Dale seems to be scared as far as I can tell.
Personally, I'm never a fan of these types of analyses simply because human nature is subject to nearly infinite variation and we tend to insert our own biases in to any interpretation or analysis of the actions of others.
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Old 08-08-2019, 12:39 AM   #27
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Here is another from the other camera view. This is where the pipe was taken from according to the show. The camera angle here is so spot on, I almost wonder if they used the surveillance camera mount to place the UM camera on.

This one is very washed out. All views from this camera look this way. It almost appears like an infrared night vision camera being used in daylight. However, in this case I believe it is just the light reflecting off the kiln along with the poor quality of the old tape.

The screen capture on this one seems to squish the picture into the space on here making it taller than it should be. But the person is still quite clear. This would be from the portion in the segment just prior to the thief hopping up on top of the machinery.
It seems there is some light source very close to the camera that is so bright is it literally creating an obstruction of view.

Have you been able to ascertain at what point the thief leaves this area? I tried tracking his movements, but it seemed like he must have disappeared when the footage was showing us a different camera angle.

If we can figure out at what point he leaves, I'm guessing the dolly sequence would be closely after.

Also, do we know if this is the first appearance of the thief without Kerstetter? I'd be curious to know exactly how much time elapsed between Kerstetter's exit and the the thief's reappearance. Offhand, I would guess at least an hour and ten minutes, give or take.
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Old 08-08-2019, 12:48 AM   #28
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I know what you mean about the analysis. And I agree. However, even if the facial expression is not clear in this tape, I don't even see Dale look into the camera. I see his face looking down almost as if in fear of what is come. But I will concede that is just my opinion and I have always felt Dale was innocent.

Ive been posting tonight as I comb through the footage. The kiln footage (camera 2) I would say that UM got spot on. You could almost overlap the two pieces of footage on top of one another and the angle would be nearly identical.

I am not certain that I have found the pacing portion yet. It seems logical it would be near the beginning of the video, but the masked man is wearing such dark clothing, he is difficult to see even in the footage where we know he was with Dale. To be honest, I can only make out the lighter portions of the trim on his coat, UM got the costume spot on from what I can tell except for possibly this: Anyone that has viewed the footage, does it look to you in the footage where he is with Dale, like the masked man has a hood on his head? Possibly rather than a ski mask? The kiln footage appears consistent with a ski mask, but the Dale footage seems like he has something different on his head.

The time anomaly you mentioned is interesting. I hadn't bought that. I wonder if the time code on the tape could be off? It wouldn't be uncommon, especially back then for a surveillance camera to have an incorrect time stamp. Interesting to note nonetheless.

Im still looking for the dolly sequence, or anything else that UM left out. However, one thing that points to Dale NOT being in the bag on the dolly is the angles shown on UM. Camera 2 shows Dale and masked man walk from top to bottom of the screen. Next, camera 1 shows platinum is taken. Then, camera 2 shows masked man wheeling something out on a dolly from top to bottom of the screen. So unless Dale went back that way off camera, it couldn't be him in the bag.
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Old 08-08-2019, 12:55 AM   #29
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It seems there is some light source very close to the camera that is so bright is it literally creating an obstruction of view.

Have you been able to ascertain at what point the thief leaves this area? I tried tracking his movements, but it seemed like he must have disappeared when the footage was showing us a different camera angle.

If we can figure out at what point he leaves, I'm guessing the dolly sequence would be closely after.

Also, do we know if this is the first appearance of the thief without Kerstetter? I'd be curious to know exactly how much time elapsed between Kerstetter's exit and the the thief's reappearance. Offhand, I would guess at least an hour and ten minutes, give or take.
I haven't found the sequence where the thief leaves yet, but I am wondering if either the light that obscures the shot is covering his exit, or like you noted, it was between cycles of the footage. Look closely at the UM portion where the man is cutting the pipe. He seems to be down INSIDE the portion of the machinery that he climbs onto in the surveillance footage. My guess is that he doesn't appear too long on the real footage because he is inside working on removing the pipe.

I'm gonna have to call it a night pretty quick as my eyes are starting to hurt looking at this so much, but Ill keep checking in on here. If anyone comes up with more details and/or time indexes, please speak up.

It will take a lot of time, but I think I am going to edit this footage all together so that the camera 1 footage shows seamlessly, camera 2, and so on. Of course it won't add anything, but if I can edit out the camera jumps, it might make any movements caught on camera easier to see. But this will take a LOT of time to edit in this fashion.
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Old 08-08-2019, 01:06 PM   #30
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I know what you mean about the analysis. And I agree. However, even if the facial expression is not clear in this tape, I don't even see Dale look into the camera. I see his face looking down almost as if in fear of what is come. But I will concede that is just my opinion and I have always felt Dale was innocent.
I think he does look at the camera. However, it's not very clear on this copy of the footage. Perhaps the original was better and it was more obvious. I've gone through it frame by frame and here are some possible instances of Dale looking at the camera during the walking sequence.

00:13:09:06 - 00:13:09:10 - it starts to get distorted after this point due to switching noise. But, Dale is clearly looking up in the direction of the camera. The detail is just too lacking to make out his face.

00:13:09:14 - not clear, but again...

At 00:13:09:22 he's dropped his head and is clearly looking down and to his right.

00:13:09:29 - he possibly looks up again. This is the clearest we see his face. You can tell it's definitely Kerstetter from the face and hairline.

Then there is some distortion at 00:13:10, but he's looking down and doesn't look back up again. The camera changes views a few frames later and this is the last we see of Kerstetter. When we return to camera 2 at 00:13:12:11, no one is in the frame.

One thing that occurred to me is that we should be able to backtrack and see where the interaction between Kerstetter and the thief began. The logical place would be the last time we had an angle from camera 2 (before the start of the walking sequence) which is roughly 00:13:05:21 - 00:13:06:24. I think I can make out Dale's head beginning around 00:13:06:18, but it's so hard to tell due to the lack of detail and the pixallation.

Going back a bit further, I think I can vaguely make out the thief's white collar at 00:13:03:05. It looks like the thief is standing to the right, facing the camera. I can't see Dale though.

Going back to the camera 2 view before that (roughly 0012:59:01 - 00:13:00:00) and I see nothing. It literally looks like no one is in the frame.

It could be that Dale and the thief are there, but impossible to see because of the lack of detail. Or, it could indicate that no one is there, and the interaction between Dale and the thief was just that brief. I suppose we also have to keep in mind that these interactions aren't in real time since the tape is slowed done by an unknown increment.

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Ive been posting tonight as I comb through the footage. The kiln footage (camera 2) I would say that UM got spot on. You could almost overlap the two pieces of footage on top of one another and the angle would be nearly identical.
Agreed.

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I am not certain that I have found the pacing portion yet. It seems logical it would be near the beginning of the video, but the masked man is wearing such dark clothing, he is difficult to see even in the footage where we know he was with Dale. To be honest, I can only make out the lighter portions of the trim on his coat, UM got the costume spot on from what I can tell except for possibly this: Anyone that has viewed the footage, does it look to you in the footage where he is with Dale, like the masked man has a hood on his head? Possibly rather than a ski mask? The kiln footage appears consistent with a ski mask, but the Dale footage seems like he has something different on his head.
I checked for the pacing at the times you mentioned, but didn't see anything myself.

Yeah, I thought that too about the thief's appearance. During the walking sequence, it looks more like a hoodie from a jacket or sweatshirt or something that is over his head, yet open in the front (kinda reminds me of drawings of "Death" with the hood and sickle). Not sure what to make of it. The footage is just so bad it's impossible to tell if the thief was truly wearing a hoodie or if he was wearing a ski mask and we just don't have that detail. Regardless, the thief is much easier to spot when he goes back for the platinum as captured by camera 1, and it looks like he is wearing a ski mask.

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The time anomaly you mentioned is interesting. I hadn't bought that. I wonder if the time code on the tape could be off? It wouldn't be uncommon, especially back then for a surveillance camera to have an incorrect time stamp. Interesting to note nonetheless.
It could very well be that the timestamp is off. I agree. Do we know what time the robbery occurred and Dale's check ins were? The lengthy thread on the case might contain this info and we would then have a better idea as to the accuracy of the timestamp.

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Im still looking for the dolly sequence, or anything else that UM left out. However, one thing that points to Dale NOT being in the bag on the dolly is the angles shown on UM. Camera 2 shows Dale and masked man walk from top to bottom of the screen. Next, camera 1 shows platinum is taken. Then, camera 2 shows masked man wheeling something out on a dolly from top to bottom of the screen. So unless Dale went back that way off camera, it couldn't be him in the bag.
Personally, I never did buy that Dale was in the bag. If he was, we would have to assume there was some sort of struggle or he was possibly killed inside the plant, and you would think there would be physical evidence of this (such as blood). However, the police did not recover any. Just a thought.
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1) How do I contact Unsolved Mysteries with information on segments?

If you any information on cases, you can contact them via:

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Contact form on official Unsolved Mysteries site

Please note that their old mailing address and 1-800 phone number no longer work.


2) Where can I watch Unsolved Mysteries?

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