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Old 08-16-2010, 02:22 AM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TracyLynnS
A quote from a previous post in this thread: Being a Pagan, he does have a different and unique morality that he could use to justify this murder.

I hadn't thought about this until now.... (admittedly, I know next to nothing about the different types of pagan belief systems) but about 4 years ago, a pagan man murdered his girlfriend in a park near my house. The local suburban demographic was primarily a mix of different types of christians and non-religious people with a few buddhists and muslims making up the population.

According to him, because of their religious beliefs, he then placed her body into a small stream in the park, not in an effort to conceal the murder, but because this had something to do with funeral or body disposal rituals (aside from the murder) that were part of their religion. IIRC he performed some type of ceremony at the time he placed her in the stream.

Anyone know if this is just a lie or an excuse on the part of the murderer, to make himself seem more sympathetic after killing his girlfriend, or if these are valid religious beliefs?

Tying this to the subject, Kurt was dead, and his body was found in water. Could the murderer or accidental killer or witness to the fatal accident have placed Kurt's body in the water after his death as part of a pagan religious observance?
not actually, his body was shown on the beach.
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Old 10-12-2010, 05:02 PM   #62
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Some points I'd like to bring up about this case.

-In the segment, they mentioned that Kurt had a lot of cuts and bruises. They suggested that Kurt could have been beaten up before being thrown into the ocean. However, I question this. As someone who's surfed before, I know it's easy to be injured at the beach. Strong tides can push anyone into large rocks, particular on the shore. Injuries can be the result.

-There's a LOT of Satanic Panic going on in the segment. Kurt's friend said that Caradoc's organization was dangerous and powerful. That's going overboard; it's not like they're a mafia. While Caradoc seems rather shady himself, I doubt the individuals involved in the cult were killing people.

It'd be interesting to see if this segment had been made today. There'd probably a lot less focus on the whole 'Satanism' aspect of the case.
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Old 10-12-2010, 05:13 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zlatko
There's a LOT of Satanic Panic going on in the segment. Kurt's friend said that Caradoc's organization was dangerous and powerful. That's going overboard; it's not like they're a mafia. While Caradoc seems rather shady himself, I doubt the individuals involved in the cult were killing people.

It'd be interesting to see if this segment had been made today. There'd probably a lot less focus on the whole 'Satanism' aspect of the case.
While I used to write this case off as a product of the times recently, I'm not sure if that stance is all together appropriate. If you google the case a bit you'll find a few accounts that connect Kurt McFall's death to Satanism. While it is extremely likely that McFall died of injuries related to a fall from the cliffs, there also seems to have been a lot of rumors around the time of Kurt's death that linked his demise to Satanism. I don't think these rumors should be necessarily dismissed offhand as a product of the times. I think given the circumstances surrounding Kurt's life around the time of his death it is possible that his death was related to some of the activities he was dabbling in. Unfortunately the only person who knows the full extent of whatever Kurt was involved in at the time is Kurt himself. There are other people who seem to have bits and pieces of information but nobody seems to have the entire picture.

In this case it could be something as simple as an accident or something as complex as the scenario that Kurt's friend described in the segment. One thing that I have picked up in reading about this case is the area where Kurt's body was found at the time was not exactly the safest place to be especially at night. Whether this was due to a high degree of Satanic activity around that area at that time I don't know. But judging from things I've read, any number of things could have happened to Kurt and later been staged to look like what Kurt's father termed "a phony scene".
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Old 10-12-2010, 11:44 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkDante
While I used to write this case off as a product of the times recently, I'm not sure if that stance is all together appropriate. If you google the case a bit you'll find a few accounts that connect Kurt McFall's death to Satanism. While it is extremely likely that McFall died of injuries related to a fall from the cliffs, there also seems to have been a lot of rumors around the time of Kurt's death that linked his demise to Satanism. I don't think these rumors should be necessarily dismissed offhand as a product of the times. I think given the circumstances surrounding Kurt's life around the time of his death it is possible that his death was related to some of the activities he was dabbling in. Unfortunately the only person who knows the full extent of whatever Kurt was involved in at the time is Kurt himself. There are other people who seem to have bits and pieces of information but nobody seems to have the entire picture.

In this case it could be something as simple as an accident or something as complex as the scenario that Kurt's friend described in the segment. One thing that I have picked up in reading about this case is the area where Kurt's body was found at the time was not exactly the safest place to be especially at night. Whether this was due to a high degree of Satanic activity around that area at that time I don't know. But judging from things I've read, any number of things could have happened to Kurt and later been staged to look like what Kurt's father termed "a phony scene".
Oh, I'm not writing off the whole Satanism link. It just seems questionable how the UM segment seems to paint Caradoc's group as being some sort of sinister, powerful organization. Back in the 80's, any sort of pagan group were seen as devil worshippers bent on destruction. I do think that Caradoc is a shady fellow who might know something about Kurt's death. He seems like an individual who could easily take advantage of his followers.
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Old 10-13-2010, 01:57 PM   #65
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I've always wondered why his father let him stay with such a weirdo. Kurt was a teen, he was clearly older. Creepy indeed.
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Old 11-11-2010, 05:41 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Fuji
One interesting thing I noticed about this case was either Robert Stack was pronouncing Gabriel Carrillo's name wrong or they misspelled his name. It clearly showed his name as Gabriel Carrillo in the segment, but Stack called him Carrhotic or something similar.

As far as the case goes, I really don't think there is anything unsolved or mysterious about it. It seems that he either fell or jumped off of their in a drunken stupor. There is no evidence at all that suggests he was involved in foul play.
The man's name was Gabriel Carillo. His Craft name was Caradoc ap Cador. He died about two years ago.
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Old 11-11-2010, 06:03 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Fuji
One interesting thing I noticed about this case was either Robert Stack was pronouncing Gabriel Carrillo's name wrong or they misspelled his name. It clearly showed his name as Gabriel Carrillo in the segment, but Stack called him Carrhotic or something similar.

As far as the case goes, I really don't think there is anything unsolved or mysterious about it. It seems that he either fell or jumped off of their in a drunken stupor. There is no evidence at all that suggests he was involved in foul play.
Gabriel Carillo's Craft name was Caradoc ap Cador. He dies of AIDS about two years ago.
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Old 11-15-2010, 06:56 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Macha
Gabriel Carillo's Craft name was Caradoc ap Cador. He dies of AIDS about two years ago.
That makes me think that perhaps he put the moves on Kurt while he was at his house, and he refused, so gabriel killed him. That or he was actually physically involved with him, and they were into some type of heavy bdsm and it went awry. Since he was underage, maybe gabriel freaked out and dumped his body either alone or with the help of others.
Somehow I think a fall from a cliff like that would cause him to break something, not just give him bumps and abrasions and especially strange carvings/flogging marks on his back.
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Old 11-15-2010, 07:24 PM   #69
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That makes me think that perhaps he put the moves on Kurt while he was at his house, and he refused, so gabriel killed him. That or he was actually physically involved with him, and they were into some type of heavy bdsm and it went awry. Since he was underage, maybe gabriel freaked out and dumped his body either alone or with the help of others.
Somehow I think a fall from a cliff like that would cause him to break something, not just give him bumps and abrasions and especially strange carvings/flogging marks on his back.
While it might not be difficult to envision a possibility that Carillo might have made advances towards Kurt, I highly doubt he killed him, especially given the two scenarios presented. Why go so far as to kill Kurt over a rejection? There is no evidence at all whatsoever that Carillo was unstable or violent in any manner. The "BDSM" thing is also rather far-fetched, IMO, much for the same reason. It's wide speculation. Just because the man may or may not have been gay doesn't mean he was a probable total nutcase.

The marks on Kurt's back may be easily explained if he slid on his back down the cliff. IIRC, I don't know if it ever was revealed whether Kurt had broken anything or not. One would assume he would've sustained at least one fracture--likely what killed him--but I don't know if we were ever told about it.
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Old 11-20-2010, 05:02 PM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheCars1986
I've always wondered why his father let him stay with such a weirdo. Kurt was a teen, he was clearly older. Creepy indeed.


I thought about this too then I had the thought that maybe Kurt and Carodac (sp??) had a more intimate relationship. Part of me thinks Kurt's death might have been a suicide. I think along the lines of this because maybe Carodac wanted to end things or didn't feel as strongly for Kurt as opposed to how Kurt may have felt. I think with his own feelings for this older man and trying to cme to terms with his sexuality at a time when it might have been very taboo to "come out of the closet", maybe that's what drove Kurt to suicide.

If it was foul play, I'm still going along the lines of an intimat relationship between Kurt and Carodac but maybe Kurt wanted to go public with what was going on between him and Caradic. Either that or quite possibly there were other young boys/men Caradic was also involved with. Kurt could have been killed in order to shut him up.
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Old 11-22-2010, 11:22 AM   #71
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I thought about this too then I had the thought that maybe Kurt and Carodac (sp??) had a more intimate relationship. Part of me thinks Kurt's death might have been a suicide. I think along the lines of this because maybe Carodac wanted to end things or didn't feel as strongly for Kurt as opposed to how Kurt may have felt. I think with his own feelings for this older man and trying to cme to terms with his sexuality at a time when it might have been very taboo to "come out of the closet", maybe that's what drove Kurt to suicide.

If it was foul play, I'm still going along the lines of an intimat relationship between Kurt and Carodac but maybe Kurt wanted to go public with what was going on between him and Caradic. Either that or quite possibly there were other young boys/men Caradic was also involved with. Kurt could have been killed in order to shut him up.
It was never implicitly stated nor implied that Carillo OR Kurt were, or could have been gay. Related points:

1. One assumes Kurt's death probably has little to do with a sexual or romantic relationship between Carillo and himself, as there is, really, no actual evidence of this. All theories stemming from it are wild speculation not based on known fact.

2. Again, just because someone is attracted to members of the same sex doesn't make them mentally disturbed, prone to jealous fits, or whatever BS some elements of the true crime media absolutely love to play up because homosexuality is still so "taboo" in our culture.



My theory is the one I think makes the most sense, logically: Kurt left the apartment. Kurt went to the beach. Kurt accidentally fell off the cliff. Kurt died as a result. There is nothing else to suggest a strong alternate theory. Nothing that's satisfied me, anyway. It was an accident.
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Old 11-22-2010, 12:03 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MegtheEgg86
It was never implicitly stated nor implied that Carillo OR Kurt were, or could have been gay. Related points:

1. One assumes Kurt's death probably has little to do with a sexual or romantic relationship between Carillo and himself, as there is, really, no actual evidence of this. All theories stemming from it are wild speculation not based on known fact.

2. Again, just because someone is attracted to members of the same sex doesn't make them mentally disturbed, prone to jealous fits, or whatever BS some elements of the true crime media absolutely love to play up because homosexuality is still so "taboo" in our culture.



My theory is the one I think makes the most sense, logically: Kurt left the apartment. Kurt went to the beach. Kurt accidentally fell off the cliff. Kurt died as a result. There is nothing else to suggest a strong alternate theory. Nothing that's satisfied me, anyway. It was an accident.
I don't think that anybody is singling out gays in this poster.
They are probably picking the very implied "homoerotic" vibe that episode had.
While I don't think that Carrillo had anything to do w/ Kurt's death (which evidence points to as either being an accident or suicide) I DO think that there was an intimate relationship between the two.

I think Carrillo found that by starting a pagan-styled organization and gathering a bunch young impressionable teens and men, he could certainly indulge his..."preferences." And Kurt's intersecting w/ his group was just a random occurrence.That, of course, UM played up to the hilt.

Last edited by cocytus; 12-28-2010 at 08:13 AM.
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Old 11-22-2010, 01:01 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cocytus
I don't think that anybody is singling out gays in this poster.
They are probably picking the very implied "homoerotic" vibe that episode had.
While I don't think that Carrillo had anything to do w/ Kurt's death (which evidence points to as either being an accident or suicide) I DO think that there was an intimate relationship between the two.

I think Carrillo found that by starting a pagan-styled organization and gathering a bunch young impressionable teens and men, he could certainly indulge his..."preferences."
And Kurt's intersecting w/ his group was just a random occurrence.That, of course, UM played up to the hilt.
It's pretty easy to find information on Caradoc's cult, although I have little tolerance to read their new-age mumbo-jumbo; nonetheless, it looks pretty obvious that it's not some evil satanist cult, just run-of-the-mill neo-pagan beliefs. Sex appears to play a large role in their worship and rituals, so it wouldn't be surprising if Kurt & Caradoc and/or others in the organization had been "intimate."

This said, I don't think Kurt's death was a homicide; it looks like an accident the father had trouble accepting. The father comes across, frankly, as someone not involved in Kurt's actual life - and in his guilt, perhaps, is trying to find a scape-goat.
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Old 12-27-2010, 11:05 PM   #74
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Two points I'd like to bring up about this case.

-I find the whole idea that Kurt wanted to go for a swim at a beach during the night very questionable. Especially when one considers that San Francisco almost never has hot nights, even during the summer. Usually, it's cold or cool. Kurt wanted to jump in the cold water then enjoy the cold air? Also, why bother driving to the beach when someone can just take a cool shower?

-Caradoc seems more suspicious than I initially thought. During the entire interview with UM, he's constantly looking away from the camera. His explanation of Kurt going to the beach is odd as well.
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Old 12-28-2010, 07:49 AM   #75
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Yeah, Carrhotic (? sp) was the one who made that claim, wasn't it?

I don't believe it and I think he might have had some associates/possible followers (more physically fit/agile than himself) that he called to rough up McFall, which ultimately led to his death. My guess is that Carrhotic was gay and made a pass at Kurt that night. When Kurt refused, I think Carrhotic might have called up these associates and made something up about Kurt committing an unspeakable sin against their Pagan religion or some crap like that.

I know that Carrhotic has since died. I wonder if he ever made a confession to anyone (outside of my theory of the alleged associates) or if he had writings that confessed or insinuated to having Kurt killed.
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