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Old 02-01-2010, 01:07 PM   #31
justins5256
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Semi-OT but here is a picture of Caradoc playing the harp...
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Old 02-01-2010, 01:37 PM   #32
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Also, an allegation that his ethics were questionable as he was known to have sexual relations with students. An allegation I found interesting since it was suggested in the segment that Kurt may have discovered something "unsettling" about the group
Good pull.

Lets say that he was involved in depraved sexual activity with students. It wasn't like he was a catholic priest or anything. Wouldn;t his religion provide a lot of leeway (if not outright condone) on that behavior.
Would info like that really be that damaging to his image?

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It's a shame that this case spent so much time trying to paint some evil Satanic conspiracy about Kurt's death when it's far more likely it was just a random accident. I don't think his religion had anything to do with his tragically untimely end.
Well if a Catholic priest dies, isn;t the logical place for police to look be in his church?

If I were investigating I would definitely look into any religious organizations or any organizations period the victim was involved.

If a victim is involved in any type of extremist religious group, that group has to be cleared in the investigation. Whether it;s a Buddhist sect, Seventh Day Adventist, Satanist, Voodoo...etc..

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I'm a pagan myself and feathers rocks and a knife are about the most normal run of the mill stuff a ceremonial pagan would have. As for Carillo being nervous I think that's a normal reaction considering many were trying to paint him as a murdering demon worshiper.
Carillo is more a person of interest because he knew Kurt very well. Pagan activities aside.

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It's a shame that this case spent so much time trying to paint some evil Satanic conspiracy about Kurt's death when it's far more likely it was just a random accident.
1. I don;t think it;s as much a Satanic conspiracy as it may be one or two deranged individuals involved in the church.

2, It was believe that Yeshiva rabbi hid the killer of Chaim Weiss.Maybe Carillo is no different? Maybe he felt it was his religuous duty to hid the killer of Kurt to protect the pagan sect?

3. You see here's the thing....if Kurt;s death was a murder...the most likely suspect is a friend of his (male or female). Considering what Kurts activities were at the time, there is a good chance this friend may have been member of the cult. The murder itself might not have anything to do with the cult, but the murder may be a member of said cult who killed Kurt for personal reasons.

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All that being said, I would say I'm still feeling about 90/10 that Kurt's death was an accident unrelated to either Caradoc's Pagan group or the SCA.

I'm starting to really lean that way. But I can only go 70/30 at this point. That darn car still bugs me! That and the marks on his body.

Why do I think of a medieval weapon when I think of those marks....
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Old 02-01-2010, 08:18 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by Mastermind
If I were investigating I would definitely look into any religious organizations or any organizations period the victim was involved.
Yeah as would I. But the fact that Kurt was involved in a religion others of the time viewed as 'dark and evil' may have resulted in several saying oh that has to be it!! As opposed to other more likely outcomes.

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If a victim is involved in any type of extremist religious group, that group has to be cleared in the investigation. Whether it;s a Buddhist sect, Seventh Day Adventist, Satanist, Voodoo...etc..
Totally agree on that looking at the church/temple/coven/grove of the deceased is a good place to start.

What I can see from what he was involved in wasn't even that extremest . Kurt was a pretty run of the mill pagan from what we saw of him. Hardly the type to attract the crazier crazies of society. Maybe a few weirdos but I don't think he was putting himself into some dark dangerous sub culture.

Still doesn't matter where you are you can be killed getting the paper.

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Carillo is more a person of interest because he knew Kurt very well. Pagan activities aside.
Oh yeah no doubt about it he had to be looked it. Last person to see him alive a good friend of his etc. It was not unwise to look at him.

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2, It was believe that Yeshiva rabbi hid the killer of Chaim Weiss.Maybe Carillo is no different? Maybe he felt it was his religuous duty to hid the killer of Kurt to protect the pagan sect?
The Weiss case was another one that has stuck with me such a tragic one. A possibility is sure maybe Carillo hide a killer in his group to protect his order. But at a passing glance his group didn't seem nearly so structured or with that much of a central power structure as to allow that to go so smoothly.

If it were one or two members maybe. Never say never.

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3. You see here's the thing....if Kurt;s death was a murder...the most likely suspect is a friend of his (male or female). Considering what Kurts activities were at the time, there is a good chance this friend may have been member of the cult. The murder itself might not have anything to do with the cult, but the murder may be a member of said cult who killed Kurt for personal reasons.
Again all very true. When a person dies the first persons looked too are often family and friends. But when somebody kills a friend it is often a crime of passion or a heat of the moment type of thing.

Kurt's death doesn't strike me as such a hotblooded killing it looks more to me like a robbery gone bad. Besides I think if someone set it up as a fake crime scene they would have done a better job of it.

No doubt though this is a strange case.
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Old 02-02-2010, 01:26 AM   #34
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I lean more forward to Kurt having an argument with someone that night and that person pushed him in the heat of the moment. Maybe Kurt lost his balance and fell off the cliff. An argument that went wrong.

Just a theory: If that Carillo guy indeed had an interest in sexual relations with his group members or students then maybe he had it also in Kurt. Maybe Carillo thought it could work between the two of them because they get along so well. Carillo invites him over that weekend to make a pass on Kurt. When he does Kurt is startled. He did not know Carillo was gay and Kurt wants nothing to do with it. He runs off or drive off to the beach. Carillo follows him and the above (first paragraph) happens.
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Old 02-03-2010, 05:29 PM   #35
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I lean more forward to Kurt having an argument with someone that night and that person pushed him in the heat of the moment. Maybe Kurt lost his balance and fell off the cliff. An argument that went wrong.

Just a theory: If that Carillo guy indeed had an interest in sexual relations with his group members or students then maybe he had it also in Kurt. Maybe Carillo thought it could work between the two of them because they get along so well. Carillo invites him over that weekend to make a pass on Kurt. When he does Kurt is startled. He did not know Carillo was gay and Kurt wants nothing to do with it. He runs off or drive off to the beach. Carillo follows him and the above (first paragraph) happens.
What you've explained above is the most likely murder scenario for Kurt McFall.

The only problems with the theory are:

1. This scenario is an accidental death...It assumes that the other person thought this was a murder and that Kurt was dead. Out of fear of a murder charge this person refused to come forward. I can see this scenario being the case for Carillo, but for a friend, I'm not sure that the friend wouldn;t call the hospital to try to rescue Kurt. I'm not saying it couldn;t happen, but I thought it should be mentioned.

2. If this is accidental death...is there really a crime here? This essentially is an accident that resulted from a fight. This is essentially a variation on the default theory that Kurt died in an accident.

3. It is possible that Kurt could have gotten into a fight with someone and Kurt fell on his own without a push. Kurt while trying to back up may have lost his bearing and just fell off.

4. If Carillo is willing to be this devious to try to entice a young boy as well ...he could very well be devious enough to intentionally push Kurt intentionally to hid his activities. Perhaps this is a crime of passion caused by Carillo as a jilted lover. Being a Pagan, he does have a different and unique morality that he could use to justify this murder.
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Old 02-03-2010, 09:00 PM   #36
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I do not necessarily see that as problems. Just points to consider if the theory holds up.

I guess my theory is in the base not a murder scenario: if the intent to kill wasn't there.
And I don't think there was intent. It was an heat of the moment thing. But if two people are arguing on a cliff and you push someone you could have known that person could fall and got seriously injured or die. I call that manslaughter.

Maybe that person or Carillo (which to me is the most likely suspect, not just a friend) thought no one would believe it wasn't intentional.
It is possible that after the fall he called out to Kurt but Kurt didn't answer. Carillo (also read: or another person, which I don't think but that is still possible but irritating to write over and over) was so startled and frightened that it went this way, and with Kurt not answering, he honoustly thought Kurt was dead. Maybe he stood on top of the cliff for a couple of minutes not knowing what to do. Should he go look? But in the dark that would be dangerous to do and maybe it was not even possible to climb down that cliff.

I guess not, so he fled the scene, back to his house. Or he fled immediately. I guess in that last case it did not come into his mind, at the moment, that Kurt maybe was just unconscious. If you are in some sort of shock I guess you'll assume the worse. And when you see the height of the cliff I can imagine you will think that a person would likely be dead.
Maybe later Carillo wondered if Kurt was even dead but did not dare to go back and later heard that Kurt was indeed found dead.

It is one thing as a man to have sexual feelings for younger men, another to prey on teenagers not yet young adults but it is an whole other area to be so devious that you would not try to help someone you pushed by accident of a cliff. Just let him lay there, possibly severely injured and otherwise dead. He could have gone for help or at least call anonimous from a payphone.
I guess he might have thought that at least Kurt could not tell on him, make him (look) ridiculous publicly for trying to hit on Kurt. Or that they would trace it back to him. I don't think he would have thought of that on forehand but maybe he thought of it when they argued on the cliff or at least after the fall. I'll will give him the benefit of the doubt that it did occur to him afterwards and that it was the reason he did not do anything to help Kurt.
But how you weigh it Carillo has some portion of deviousness in his body.

What the possible carving on his back or neck concerns. It is also possible he got that from the fall. If I remember well the cliff was not 100% straight down so it is possible Kurt fell, hit a sharp rock or something when he rolled over and over in his fall.

What the truth is, in every direction it is real sad someone that young did come to his end like this.
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Old 02-04-2010, 11:28 AM   #37
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Maybe that person or Carillo (which to me is the most likely suspect, not just a friend) thought no one would believe it wasn't intentional.
I guess. But it's not like there is a murder weapon or anything.

The person could always say the guy fell off the cliff.

This isn;t like a child dying due to a blow from the parents. I'm not sure that being accused for murder is the first thing you think of.

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Should he go look? But in the dark that would be dangerous to do and maybe it was not even possible to climb down that cliff.
Could have called the police and water rescue. I would think a friend would at least do that. Carillo probably wouldn't but I would think a close friend would. Curiously enough, this friend was apparently in the car with him and drove up with him. This had to be a fairly close friend.

Quote:
What the possible carving on his back or neck concerns. It is also possible he got that from the fall. If I remember well the cliff was not 100% straight down so it is possible Kurt fell, hit a sharp rock or something when he rolled over and over in his fall.
Most likely it was rocks....but Kurt was involved with Medieval fighting. There were several unique weapons that may be able to produce similar wounds. I wonder if a mace would cause similar wounds....
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Old 02-05-2010, 05:22 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by Mastermind
this friend was apparently in the car with him and drove up with him.
Where did you find this info?
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Old 02-05-2010, 11:10 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mastermind
this friend was apparently in the car with him and drove up with him.
Where did you find this info?

1.I'm assuming there were no tire marks or evidence of a second vehicle. (especially since this vehicle would be speeding off at the time.) Does anyone know if there was any evidence of another car. How common were vehicles on that path? What was the terrain?

2.There is more evidence of a second party in his car.

Just making a deduction that a friend didn;t drive up to meet him at the scene. That this friend drove up with him in Kurt's car.
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Old 02-06-2010, 01:46 AM   #40
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When I read your message I assume you think a (close) friend of him did it.
Ok, let I go in that direction with you. (I don't think so but h it can be possible.)

How did Kurt end up with this friend. In his car or with two cars?
According to Carillo, he was with him that weekend en Kurt only seems to have left in the middle of the night because it was too hot? (I don't believe that was the reason Kurt left but I'll use it for your theory.)

And what could be the reason that Kurt and that friend got in an arguement?
I can see it happen between Carillo and Kurt but I can't seem to fit a friend in, in that weekend and for what reason that person and Kurt could have an accounter.
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Old 02-06-2010, 02:09 AM   #41
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I don't get why so many people here think this was an accident.

The people that knew Kurt best, including his anonymous friend that was scared for his life, and his father both think he was murdered, and I share this opinion, as well as the medical examiners. There's a reason he's scared for his life, and as he said, Kurt had been acing very strangely in the months leading up to his death, which caused him to lose a lot of his friends. Then there's this:

http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-an...?msg_id=00Aa3f

The murder scene just screams of a shoddy cover up. There were beer cans near the car yet the autopsy revealed there wasn't any alcohol in his system, so I'm pretty sure they were planted there to make Kurt look like he fell accidentily off the cliff due to his drunkeness. That or a person got in an argument with Kurt and pushed him off the cliff, and then promptly fled the scene in a flurry without regard for the car. A lot of questions remained unanswered. Why was he naked? Where was his belt buckle? If he went out for a run like Caradoc said, then why was his shoes missing? Why was his SCA armor missing from the trunk? Did the cuts on his back resemble injuries sustained during the fall or actual assault?

That Caradoc guy is such a suspicious character. If I had to take a guess, I'd say he had something to do with it. He either knew too much or got an some sort of argument I'd say. Or he was ritually sacrificed, but we'd need more information than that letter to know.

Last edited by Kyte; 02-06-2010 at 03:24 PM.
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Old 02-06-2010, 02:31 AM   #42
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Kyte, your link doesn't work. I get a 404 message.
The beer in the car can also be put there by teenagers who found the abandoned car and used it to hang out. Unaware of the circumstances..
I don't know if it was murder of not. I just have my opinion and I thought a theory with it. I can be totally wrong. I don't know.
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Old 02-06-2010, 03:24 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by Shahla
Kyte, your link doesn't work. I get a 404 message.
The beer in the car can also be put there by teenagers who found the abandoned car and used it to hang out. Unaware of the circumstances..
I don't know if it was murder of not. I just have my opinion and I thought a theory with it. I can be totally wrong. I don't know.
Fixed
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Old 02-06-2010, 06:04 PM   #44
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When I read your message I assume you think a (close) friend of him did it.
Ok, let I go in that direction with you. (I don't think so but h it can be possible.)


And what could be the reason that Kurt and that friend got in an arguement?
I can see it happen between Carillo and Kurt but I can't seem to fit a friend in, in that weekend and for what reason that person and Kurt could have an accounter.
Actually I don;t think anyone killed him at all. I believe it was an accident. I was following your line of thinking that he was murdered.

Quote:
How did Kurt end up with this friend. In his car or with two cars?
According to Carillo, he was with him that weekend en Kurt only seems to have left in the middle of the night because it was too hot? (I don't believe that was the reason Kurt left but I'll use it for your theory.)
We have no idea what happened where Kurt left to time of death. Evidence in the car suggests potentially another person in the car, (who was drinking the beer in the car?). Kurt may have picked someone up. Since there is no evidence of another car, I have to assume that the other person was with him in a car.


Quote:
And what could be the reason that Kurt and that friend got in an arguement?
Resons? I dunno....Girls, Drugs, money, who's the better fighter, Who's the best shortstop in the National League....male testosterone...homosexual advances...the reasons are endless as to why two males would want to engage in a fistacuffs. I once tried to stuff my 15 year old cousin in a garbage gan because he stole my Kangol hat once. Not the greatest motive at all but a fight ensued.

Keep in mind, were discussing the motives for a fight/argument. Not the motives for murder.


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I can see it happen between Carillo and Kurt but I can't seem to fit a friend in, in that weekend and for what reason that person and Kurt could have an accounter.
[/QUOTE]

Wouldn;t Carillo be considered a close friend??? Why would his motives be any different from any other friend of Kurt's.
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Old 02-07-2010, 12:20 PM   #45
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Kyte, I followed your link and saw that I already visited that page when I googled Kurt earlier. You think it was murder. What are your reasons for that or what is your theory?

Mastermind, I didn't think it was murder. I was more thinking about an arguement that accidently went wrong. You guess he either jumped or fell?
But why would he have climbed there when Carillo claims Kurt went out because he found it too hot? Why then would you go climbing? You only get it hotter then. And where were his shoes? He was found without. Climbing without shoes?
I don't think he just fell from the cliff. He knew the area. I find it hard to believe someone will fell, just like that, from a cliff without 'help'.

Who could he have picked up in the car after he left Carillo in the middle of the night? Nobody talks about seeing him after he left Carillo so if there was someone else he must have met him that night? According to interviews in UM he did not have close friends anymore because of his behaviour so I guess there was not anyone he was close enough to anymore he could call that late.
The car was abandoned for an amount of time. Maybe other kids, teenagers found the car and used it as a hangout?

Carillo doesn't sound as a close friend to me. More of the mentor of the group Kurt was seeing.
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