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Old 10-16-2007, 02:04 PM   #31
Corky Kneivel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mozartpc27
I agree that a student is the most likely murderer here, Corky, but what precisely makes you think that the killer reentered the room?

This passage here (from rapunzel's post):

"In all probability, the offender would have had to have been close enough to know that Weiss' body had not been discovered before returning to the scene . . . Upon re-entry, the assailant found the room dark and raised the shade to provide additional light . . . Weiss' body was moved by the assailant, either to provide easier access to the window and shade or for the assailant to look under the body for anything incriminating left there. The window may have been opened by the assailant to discard some item which he later retrieved."



Quote:
Originally Posted by mozartpc27
The body was moved twice after death, but my guess, as I posted earlier, is that the moves occurred within a very short time of one another.
We disagree on this point.



Quote:
Originally Posted by mozartpc27
Someone comes in, finds the body. Before contacting authorities, this person wants to make sure Chaim's body is prepared for death as it should be.
We agree on this point.


I base my opinion that the killer came back to the room and moved the body from the passage above because, as I read it, the investigative authorities (IA) based their opinion on the blood. I am assuming that they feel there was enough blood pooled in the bed and in the original spot on the floor to suppose that if anyone else but the killer had moved the body from the bed to the floor then the police would have been notified much earlier. I agree that a school official moved the body from its second location to its third and I think the IA do too as they give no explanation for it.

I'm saying that the IA saw enough blood in the bed to surmise that not only was the kill spot, but the body had lain there for a time. Then they saw another blood formation of such a significant amount and pattern they surmised that the body had lain there for a time as well. And that if a school official had been the one to move the body from the bed to the floor spot A, then from floor spot A to floor spot B, the amount of blood at floor spot A meant that school officials, or at least 'a' school official, had been aware of the murder for quite some time before the IA were even notified.

If only we knew the amount of blood pooled in each spot, along with its level of congealing, then you and I would probably be able to deduce which theory is more in accordance with the facts.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mozartpc27
My guess is that, due to Chaim's position on the bed at death, with his head propped up on a pillow (in all probability), the blood collected on the side of his head under the wound and also tended to move towards his lower half. When the person who found him lowered him to the floor, not only did his head change position, but the distrribution of his weight was such that gravity would have pushed the blood in his body towards his head. Thus, when he was moved to the floor, the wound "leaked." The person who moved him, after turning to open the window, turned back and saw this, and moved Chaim slightly, one last time, to get his head out of the blood that had collected from his leaking wound and moved his head so that no blood would seep out again.

In other words, I would think the person who found him moved him TWICE, with the second move within a minute or so of the first. I would think the killer never re-entered the room.


So you think the pooling on the floor would be larger at floor spot B then at floor spot A, am I correct? Also, how much time do you think elapsed between the moving of Chaim Weiss and the notifying of the police?


Quote:
Originally Posted by mozartpc27
Although the FBI report suggests the window was left open so the killer could toss the murder weapon out the window, I think that is wild speculation at best. I doubt the killer would have bothered; not only would a falling object have made a crashing noise late at night that might have further risked waking another person associated with the school (a risk he had already taken once by murdering Chaim in the first place, betting there would be no scream or other disturbance from him), but then he would have had to risk more time away from wherever he was supposed to be in favor of being somewhere he didn't belong so he could retrieve it. My guess is he took the murder weapon with him when he left.

I think the murderer counted on a healthy amount of confusion once the body was found. I also think that he could have retrieved it and stashed it before Chaim was ever discovered.
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Old 10-28-2008, 12:26 AM   #32
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If the killer was a student, and Chaim was one of only two students without a roommate, unless the killer's roommate was out sick or something the killer would have to count on him sleeping through the whole thing--not only the time sneaking out, committing the murder, and sneaking back in would take, but time to dispose of bloody clothing and weapon. This is why sleepwalking rage seems unlikely (unless people at the school knew, and covered it up to protect someone they felt didn't know what he was doing) because someone in a trance or something wouldn't be clever enough to hide a weapon and bloody clothing. Perhaps that's what the person seen down by the water went there to do, and perhaps it had nothing to do with it.

As far as the body being moved, that could be true--they cared more about tradition being followed than preserving a crime scene. And in other crimes, less gory than this, killers have gotten in and out of a place leaving almost no evidence whether or not the scene was disturbed.
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Old 10-29-2008, 12:47 AM   #33
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It could be, heartofgold, that in your dream you combined the Chaim Weiss case with that of Jaclyn Dowaliby. A sleeping child is abducted, later found murdered, those in the house at the time are suspected, but it's later proven to be an outside attack perpetrated by an uncle.
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Old 11-24-2008, 05:43 AM   #34
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While watching a Kennedy assassination documentary, I was reminded of this story. As far as not lying in a pool of blood, if you notice in the films of Robert Kennedy's assassination, the wounded Kennedy is unable to hold his head up, but two other people are holding it up so it doesn't touch the pool on the floor.
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Old 11-24-2008, 01:13 PM   #35
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Seeing this case up on the front page got me thinking about it again. Some thoughts, collated from the segment and information posted here:

The FBI file sugests that this was a "frenzied" killing, based on the number and severity of blows struck on Chaim's skull. While this does not totally eliminate the possibility that an outsider who was selecting not Chaim personally but a yeshiva student generally, it makes it substantially less likely. If it indeed WAS a random person from the outside looking to strike terror into the school community by selecting one boy to kill at random, there are essentially two possible motives I can think of for this person:

1) This person, perhaps living in the neighborhood where the school was located and perhaps not, was a classic anti-Semite. This was someone who hated Jewish people enough to enter a dorm at night and kill one randomly, to teach the rest a lesson or scare them.

2) This person was somehow formerly associated with the school; perhaps he was a student who as expelled, or who had had a bad experience of some kind while attending it.

If either theory is correct, we need to square it with the facts as they appear. I turn, immediately, to the apparently frenzied nature of the killing. rapunzel had posted that, according to the FBI, the first blow pierced the skull to the brain and was sufficient in itself to cause death, but that the attack continued for several more blows. This suggests someone whose passionate anger --- rage, really --- ran very deep. Could a random intruder work up the passion required to beat a boy he didn't know personally at all, but who was instead selected randomly, to death with a hatchet-like object, striking many more blows than were necessay to kill him? I doubt it, but let's look at the two possible "random" archetypes I've identified, starting with the second one.

I think that if the "random person" in question were motivated in the way I suggest in (2) above, it is all but impossible that the murder would have been this savage. Why would someone who had had a prior bad experience with the school pick a student to kill in the first place? It seems to me it would be more likely - and more effective - for such a person to kill an administrator or teacher, since the bad experience at the school probably started, as most such things do, with a disinterested or corrupt power structure.

If the random person were just a raging anti-Semite as I suggested in (1) above, perhaps this hypothetical killer could hav worked up the rage required to kill Chaim as violently as he was murdered. However, when such things happen, the person doing the killing usually tries to make it apparent what the motive was - the point of a race murder, after all, is to scare a large group of people by convincing them that an even larger or more powerful group doesn't want them around. If this were an anti-semitic stranger, why was there nothing at the scene indicating as much? Perhaps a swastika drawn on the wall, or something? It seems very pointless to murder a Jew to scare other Jews if you don't let the whole world know why the first Jew was murdered. There are, of course, crazy anti-semitic people in the world, who would gladly do what wa sdone to Chaim, but they're usually not shy about advertising their motives, if not their identities.

More importantly, in either case, if this were a random person who had somehow managed to gain access to Chaim's dorm and was intent on killing one of the students (but, since he would have been unknown to Chaim, not particularly caring who precisely he killed), how did the killer seem to have at least a decent guess as to where one of only two boys with a single slept? Why would the killer have known that ANY boys had single rooms? As others, notably wiseguy, have pointed out, whoever this was seemed to have a reasonable understanding of the layout of the dorm. Would a random killer who decided one night to kill a random yeshiva student have such knowledge? Suppose it were our hypothetical anti-semite. Though I expressed doubt earlier in this thread about whether or not the incident where the murderer mistakenly opened the door to a room next to Chaim's with two boys in it is true (a doubt I sill have), the surprise would be, in the case of a truly random anti-semitic psychopath off the street committing this crime, that this person didn't have to open EVERY SINGLE DOOR he came to before finding the room with only one boy inside. Indeed, if he were truly random, and knew nothing about the inside of the dorm before entering it, it's hard to imagine how he wouldn't have had to try this clumsy trial-and-error method. Isn't this an awfully dumb risk to take? And why would a random person looking to kill a random student take the further risk of going to an upstairs room, where he might be trapped befor he could escape? Why not just enter a room on the first floor, strike until somebody woke up, and then bolt? The circumstances just don't fit; this killer seemed to have a general idea of what he was doing. Or, if he didn't, and the "mistaken door opening" story is true, it suggests he was just looking for a boy alone - and that he must have taken the risk of opening pretty much every door he came to until he found what he was looking for in Chaim's room. It's hard to imagine someone could be this ballsy - I know I would lose my nerve after I'd gotten it wrong once or twice; I would have either murdered whoever I found or given up and ran for it before I was caught (or both)

I suppose the answer might be that the random person was indeed our hypothetical "disgruntled former student" who would have had knowledge about the dorm's layout and where the single room was (or was unsure for certain, but remembered that it was one of two rooms on an upper floor). But, for reasons I went over, why would this person select a student, rather than someone higher up the food chain to kill? And wouldn't such a student be easily identifiable - surely the police must have asked if there were any recent students who had to be expelled who might have wanted to get some measure of revenge?

I just don't think there is a viable scenario where the killer is not specifically targeting Chaim Weiss.
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Old 11-24-2008, 01:29 PM   #36
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I remember this case well. It's still one of the stranger cases, mainly because it seems to me that it's so close to being solved.

I agree with mozartpc27 in that it had to be someone from inside the school or at least someone who knew the layout of the school. If that's the case, though, one figures the case should have been solved a long time ago. The few likely potential suspects were teenaged boys who should have cracked under NYPD interrogation. At the very least, somebody should have talked, if only to other classmates.

The motive combined with the method of homicide is strange to me. Frenzied crime-of-passion style attacks usually indicate that the attacker knew the victim very well. Honestly it didn't seem like anybody was that close to Chaim. Furthermore, that kind of attack usually occurs after an argument. By all accounts Chaim was sleeping when he was attacked. Who could have been so angry at Chaim that he would have done that to him while he was sleeping? Surely there couldn't have been that many people in the school who fell into that category.

Even if you take away all of the stranger aspects of this case, it still seems as if there are a few things that don't make sense. If someone gets attacked when they're sleeping, surely they wake up and make a ruckus...unless they're struck hard enough to be incapacitated immediately, which suggests some kind of weapon was involved. Was such a weapon ever identified? Or did other students hear something, and were too afraid of the attacker to speak up?
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Old 11-24-2008, 01:40 PM   #37
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So, if we can eliminate as a likelihood the "random" killer theory, that means Chaim was murdered by someone who knew him. What are the possible motives? In no particular order:

1) By all accounts, Chaim was a "popular" boy in the school (and even religious schools, I'm afraid, have this kind of dynamic). This leads to two distinct possibilities in my mind: 1) someone close to, but just underneath, Chaim on the social totem pole at the school, someone that Chaim perhaps even regarded as a friend, murdered him out of jealousy, or perhaps because of a specific incident in which he had been embarrassed in front of other students by Chaim in some way and 2) someone at the bottom of the social totem pole, out of jealousy, or because perhaps Chaim picked on him or something similar, had built up such a hatred toward Chaim that he killed him. This would not be uncommon; it happens among high school age boys.

2) Although it's never been offered as an explanation yet, I think would be remiss if we did not note that, even if the group we are talking about is a group that takes its religion very seriously, this was still a group of young people, just reaching puberty living in close quarters. This could have been an argument over a girl (I don't know how much opportunity these boys got to get outside the school, but it wouldn't be hard to imagine them meeting girls by, for example, sneaking out of the dorms at night and taking the short walk to the boardwalk/beach area that was apparently nearby), or, lest we fail to mention all possibilities, perhaps a murder motivated by homosexual desire. Its possible that Chaim had experimented with another boy, but ultimately decided nt to pursue it, and, in a rage brought on by rejection, the second boy killed him. It is possible that Chaim himself never realized that a particular boy had a "crush" on him, and that Chaim was not homosexual; perhaps another boy had convinced himself that he and Chaim could "be together" in some way, and then Chaim said something to him about liking a girl he had seen or met. In young adolescents in a closed community where the intensity of all personal relationships is inevitable heightened, I can imagine such a scenario leading to a boy losing control of himself and murdering Chaim.

3) Perhaps Chaim was murdered by an outsider, but someone who KNEW him. Three major theories develop: a) Perhaps there was a boy who was recently expelled over an incident involving Chaim. I doubt this because the answer would be so obvious that one would think it would HAVE to be solved, but this cenario would explain why an outsider would have intimate knonwledge of the dorms and why Chaim specifically had been targeted.
b) Perhaps Chaim knew someone from his neighborhood (his family was from Staten Island) who wanted him dead enough to pursue him out to the school on Long Island.
c) Perhaps Chaim had indeed met a girl who he himself had snuck into the dorm on a few occasions. This would explain, perhaps, why Chaim was up so late - he was waiting to be the last person awake so that he could get his girlfriend into the building. Perhaps on this night he dumped her, or they had a fight of some kind. Or perhaps he had already dumped her, and she was angry and had the combination to the dorm, and so went up there to take her revenge.

I think Cori AKA ChrisSCrush raises an interesting question when s/he mentions that, if one boy did this, not only was he risking not being heard or seen by anyone near by when he committed the murder, but also was risking that he would not wake his roomate, since all but two students had roomates (one of them being Chaim). I wonder how heavily the other boy with a single was checked out. It seems unlikely that a young, probably nervous young boy inexperienced in crime could avoid waking up someone in his own room. This observation certainly makes one want to take a second look at the notion that someone from outside the school did it, but it also raises the possbility that not one but two boys were involved - two roomates. Perhaps one held Chaim while the other struck the fatal blows.

There's no real physical evidence, as far as I know, that there were two people in the room; on the other hand, except for the fact that Chaim was dead by a violent but not self-inflicted wound, there is precious little indicating even ONE other person was in there with him.
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Old 11-24-2008, 07:59 PM   #38
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Okay, law enforcement calls this a crime of passion or a frenzied killing because of the overkill. But what if this was really a crime of inexperience?

Sorry to get graphic, but let's say that we believe the medical examiner and the first blow was enough to kill. That doesn't mean there wouldn't be any involuntary movement, coughing, gurgling or labored breathing as Chaim's body gave out. It's possible that an inexperienced killer would panic if this occurred, and hit him a few more times just to make sure he was dead. Blunt force trauma/stabbing isn't as exact a killer as a bullet through the brain.

I see this as a situation where the killer just wanted to make sure that Chaim was dead rather than a crime of anger or hatred. But the motive is still baffling. The way his body was found, it's as if the killer was remorseful, or wanted Chaim to seem cared-for. I wonder if Chaim saw something he wasn't supposed to see.
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Old 11-24-2008, 08:00 PM   #39
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To play Devil's Advocate here, would it not be safe to assume that this was just a random act of violence were the motive was simply anti-semitism? It would certainly be the most plausable motive for murder out of all the ones brought forth thus far, and it also explains why someone opened the wrong door and shut it quickly when the perpetrator realized that there were two people residing in the room. Perhaps the killer checked more than one room, but only one of the boys actually woke up (or was the only one willing to talk to authorities about it). Just because the window was open and the candle was on his desk does not mean the murderer was either in the Yeshiva nor Jewish. I think either one of the boys or a rabbi found him, and keeping with their customs opened the window and lit the mourning candle. But I think authorities ruled out the possibility of an outsider too quick for that very reason.
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Old 04-05-2009, 06:06 PM   #40
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I have several comments:

1: The portrayal of the Yeshiva World through TV
2: They system of the Yeshiva World
3: Girls, Sex and Homosexuality in a Yeshiva Dorm
4: The Chaim Weiss case

1: I grew up in the Yeshiva System and was in a Yeshiva Dormitory for all of H.S. and 7 years of Post H.S. . My children have all gone through the Yeshiva system. So I have more than 30 years of living "in" that world.
Me my friends and relatives simply cackle with peals of laughter when we see how television portrays the Yeshiva life. There has not been one TV or movie episode that got it right.

2: Yeshiva living is not scary, secret or eerie. It is physically open, bright, and sunny for those who are in it. However, having said that, emotionally it is in fact very challenging. It can lead to individual students who donít get it, are not interested in the lifestyle, are troubled, or are misfits to feel isolated and very lonely. However, that can be said of any school system in the world. The Orthodox religion is very rigid - proudly so, and thus the staff of Yeshivas try and mold the young men in a lifestyle that understands that the rejection of the western values, of the "me" generation, of a life of pursuit of pleasure and materialism is not healthy and not the way of a Torah Jew. That is the stated goal.

Having said that, 90% of right wing yeshiva educators have zero formal training in curriculum, education, child psychology or anything else for that matter. It is a system where the teachers are chosen by giving those who have come up through the system and excelled at Talmud a job. In almost all cases he is a young man in his early 20s who is recently married with one or two children and he needs a job. He is plugged into a class of 14 yr olds (9th graders) to teach Talmud. As this teacher gets older he may or may not get moved up the chain to teach higher grades. This inevitably depends on if the Rosh Hayeshiva (The head Rabbi of the Yeshiva or "Dean") has any sons or sons in laws that need a job. The system of who gets hired and which students get admitted into the best Yeshivas is based on 1) nepotism and 2) if the family has money or not. Those are the only two criteria. The first criteria is not denied by anyone, the second criteria is only admitted off the record as wry self deprecating humor amongst those who at least have the decency to be somewhat embarrassed by the realities of trying to manage a budget solely on the charitable donations of others. (As high as Yeshiva tuition is, it never covers even 50% of the budget and every yeshiva has to raise the rest of the budget on their own).

The older I got and the more exposed to the outside world I became the more it became clear to me that while the teachers are for the most part very well meaning and want to do what is right, they have no business being educators. Most of them are very nice people who do care but simply lack any training. It is analogous to any one of us who is not trained in medicine going to a foreign country and trying to help sick people. We know a little bit, we want to help, we mean well and we would genuinely care, but we would fail in a lot of cases because we simply donít know what we are doing.

3: Girls in the dorm room. Homosexual element:

As far as a girl being in the dorm. Notwithstanding the antics of boys in dorm rooms that is portrayed on TV, the portrayal in the media that every 14 and 15 year old is somehow more clever than anyone in authority is absurd. I know that "nothing is impossible" but I can tell you that it is in fact impossible for a girl to get into a yeshiva Dorm when the semester is in session. Maybe you can do it once, but never on a regular basis.

No one can get away with anything in the dorms and this fact adds to the pressure and tension the boys feel. Living in a Yeshiva dorm is literally living in a fish bowl. everyone watches everyone else, and everyone is encouraged to tell on his fellow classmates in order to 'save him'. The fact is that these boys are forbidden to talk to anyone of the opposite sex outside of their sisters and cousins. No Yeshiva Rabbi would ever tell you otherwise - nor would they be ashamed in any way. They are also very cognizant that boys of this age have raging hormones and the possibility does exist for some small percentage to experiment with homosexual behavior because they are restricted from any kind of sexual behavior, or contact with the opposite sex at all. Thus, all yeshiva dorm rooms have no locks on them. The boys have no privacy and are well aware that there is nowhere to go within a Yeshiva campus. I believe that besides 3- 5 exceptions, in the US all Yeshiva campuses are on less than 3 acres of property and the rooms are always crowded and are most often just converted Mansions or a series of one family houses converted to dorm rooms. This isnít to say it doesnít happen. It does. Itís a rarity - but it does happen, and the staff knows as we all do that adolescence is a confusing time.

As mentioned above, I donít think they have the professional training or experience to deal with boys who have these issues very well. The standard operating procedure for anyone caught engaging in homosexual activity is immediate expulsion. (Immediate means the same day- boom out the door - Iíve seen it happen with my own eyes when I was a student and when I was an adult involved with a Yeshiva).

Again they mean well and try - but they are working in a system and with a parent body that has zero tolerance for any kind of western romantic influences on their children - and they reject absolutely the politically correct acceptance of behavior that they find abhorrent.

The upshot is that there is not much one can get away with in a Yeshiva Dorm. it was like this in the 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s and today.

4: The case of Chaim Weiss: There is not much more to say on a case that is 23 years old - I think everything that can be said has been said. I just want to point out that the chances of any student actually knowing the laws of how to handle a dead body is almost zero. The laws of Jewish death and mourning are very complicated and even seasoned Yeshiva Rabbis and teachers do not alwys know these laws well. Learning Jewish Law takes a lifetime and there are different fields and specialties. The laws of Death and Mourning fall under what we call "practical rabbinics" - it is something a congregational Rabbi who is less learned in Talmud - would have a better grasp on than most yeshiva rabbis as they deal with it as part of their job.

Thus only some of the teachers would have known these rules and not many of them either. It would have had to be the older and more scholarly ones. But there is almost zero chance that any student knew these rules. (Unless he had actually lost a family member and during the time of mourning was exposed to these laws, - easy for the authorities to check which student lost a direct family member - or he actually studied up on them because he knew he would be coming across a dead body - pretty sick - but in that case someone would have known and seen what he was learning and it would have stuck out as very odd).

There have been claims that the Yeshiva stonewalled the investigation because of religious reasons. Iíd like to make it clear that Religious Jews who cover up crimes of this nature (or assault or sexual molestation) are not fulfilling any religious laws, they are fulfilling self preservation. The Jewish law forbidding reporting another Jew to non Jewish authorities does not apply - anywhere - in any shape or form - when it comes to crimes that endanger the community. The law of not going to non Jewish authorities only applies to monetary disputes. Jews are "supposed" to be able to settle their monetary differences through Jewish arbitration. This works only because the law of the land allows arbitration to work. It is in fact sanctioned by the government. (The government welcomes any form of arbitration as it relieves the court system which is overwhelmed). However, the notion by so many of my fellow orthodox Jews that hiding violent crimes falls under this rubric is nonsense. I would say it is misguided, but there is no one in the Orthodox world who does not know the truth. The community must be protected, that is paramount. Human life is sacrosanct and suspends all Jewish law. Every Jewish child knows the law that to save a life one MUST desecrate the Sabbath.

If the Yeshiva did in fact stonewall the investigation as the deceased's father alleged in a suit that he filed against them back then, then they have committed the ultimate act of desecrating G-d's name and shaming their own people and religion.
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Old 04-07-2009, 11:46 AM   #41
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This is an awesome thread and one that has brought out such intelligent discussion.
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Old 04-07-2009, 02:16 PM   #42
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1: I grew up in the Yeshiva System and was in a Yeshiva Dormitory for all of H.S. and 7 years of Post H.S. . My children have all gone through the Yeshiva system. So I have more than 30 years of living "in" that world.
Me my friends and relatives simply cackle with peals of laughter when we see how television portrays the Yeshiva life. There has not been one TV or movie episode that got it right.
Too true!

One of the things that gets lost in this case is that Chaim was 16 years old. He was not a little kid, which is something that i felt the UM epsiode didn;t do a good job of showing.

He's a teenager and with most teenagers he's wont to find trouble at times. Think abou the Kurt Sova case. (not that I'm blaming poor Kurt for his predicament)

Trevenien... were drugs and drug abuse prevalent at Yeshiva schools? Any type of "Chocalate War" type sects or gangs?

Another question I have is how big was Chaim? Was he taller than average, shorter?

Couple of points:

1. One blow may not be sufficient enough to kill a victim. I find it hard to believe that an outside intuder would just use a single blow and not strike him at least once more. The fact that it was a sharp object is curious. That doesn;t fit in with your usual bludgeon device. Makes me wonder if his injury is more accidental than intentional. Does an autopsy report rule out accidental blow?

2. If it was an intruder, the only real motive I could see would be vengeance against the Yeshiva school or Judaism in general. But why would he just kill one school kid with a blow to the head? Why not draw Swastikas on the wall, set a fire, put a pipe bomb or something? Why not molest the kid or do more damage to the body? If it was a disgraced Yeshiva student, why not go after one of the rabbi's? What seems more plausible is that this was the act of a psychopath who just wanted to kill someone in that school? I disagree that the killer would necessarily have to know the inner workings of yeshiva to break in and kill Chaim.

3. The fact that the body may have been moved twice within a short distance is suspcious. The only reason I can think that this was done was to make sure that it was known right away that Chaim was dead. if he left the kid in bed, it would be assumed that he was still sleeping.

4. I think that if some psycho was killing studnts coming through their windows, the students and rabbis would be more than willing to talk about any info they have. I mean think about it, the killer could strike again and kill another student. Wouldn't you want to make sure that guy was caught? If there is some "code of silence" in this case, I have to think that the threat is more inside than outside. That the students know the killer is among them, and that it benefits their safety not to talk.

Chaim was killed by
1. One of his fellow students as part of some retribution for some secretive activity (drugs, cult, school gang, alcohol, sex, grilfriends, homosexuality etc....)
2. Killed by a random psychopath who saw the open window as an opportunity to kill a 16 year old boy.

I hope it;s the former, because if it;s the latter....then this guy may have and may still strike again. n

The theory that keeps running through my head is that Chaim was killed as some initiation or part of some dare by a group of kids at the school.
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Old 04-07-2009, 04:06 PM   #43
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The theory that keeps running through my head is that Chaim was killed as some initiation or part of some dare by a group of kids at the school.
Now that's got me thinking... what time of year was it, (had the school year recently started up again?) and were the kids involved in any type of hazing activity?

Is that why they all clammed up? To protect each other? Were several kids involved in a hazing that went wrong, they miscalculated what would happen, and they ended up killing Chaim by accident?
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Old 04-10-2009, 12:05 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Corky Kneivel
Undoubtedly there were students there older than him and undoubtedly there were students of comparably close intellect, so is it reall that hard to conceive of someone there being intelligent enough to pull this off? Not to me, not by far.
I think this is a pretty good point.
And as to returning to the room theory. My theory is that the killer never left the room and returned. I think the killer was in the room for awhile and change the position of the body a couple of times. I mean he must have been sure he was dead. There was no risk that someone would scream. He had planned to kill him but what happen after was an act of improvisation.
I'm 90% sure this was a student, teacher or somebody related to the school....
As to the motive even though I don't think it's that important in this case:
Homosexuality, jealousy, envy or religious sin.
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Chaim was killed as some initiation or part of some dare by a group of kids at the school.
This theory does not hold water cause of the knife that was used. It was no accident. A group of people would never have been able to keep this quiet. And all passing the lie detector test. No, this was an act of one killer.
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What seems more plausible is that this was the act of a psychopath who just wanted to kill someone in that school? ..... vengeance against the Yeshiva school or Judaism in general.
I'm of course open to this theory as well even though it is something in they way the killing was handle that tells me this was an act of another Jew.
I'm also open for that the killing was not against Chaim himself but against the Weiss family. Especially against Chaims father. The way the father acted after the murder by suing and blaming the Yeshiva school tells me that he may have enemies from the past.

Last edited by slasherman; 04-10-2009 at 12:53 PM.
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Old 04-10-2009, 05:37 PM   #45
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Quote:
Chaim was killed as some initiation or part of some dare by a group of kids at the school.

This theory does not hold water cause of the knife that was used. It was no accident. A group of people would never have been able to keep this quiet. And all passing the lie detector test. No, this was an act of one killer.
Not necessarily.

A dare or initiation doesn;t have to be an accident. The initiation or dare might have been to actually kill Chaim Weiss. Not to simply attack him.

How many students took the lie detector test? Not all I assume.

Chaim may not have knew the boys that did this as an intitiation. The reason they may have chose him was that he was an outsider in their group. They may have chosen him because he was an easy target. I assume the lie detector was done on only the students connected to Chaim.

Secrecy is always a key part of any gang, cult, etc. It could be also as simple as the boys that killed Chaim were not interviewed or were interviewed for a short duration. I don;t think they were thrown in the box or anything.

Quote:
I'm of course open to this theory as well even though it is something in they way the killing was handle that tells me this was an act of another Jew.
Or someone who hates jews. You always study those you hate. An anti-semite, Muslim or atheist could easily know about the school and Judaic rituals with the idea of striking a blow againt Judiasm in his mind. Though I think

I tend to think that too much is placed on the fact this happend in a Jewish school. If you think about it, this could easily have happened in a secular boarding school, catholic school, or all girls boarding school fo rthat matter. heck it could happen in a military school or madaressa(sp?)

As has been discussed and used as an theory on the Jon Benet Ramsey case...there is an open window. Anybody from the outside could have noticed this and used it as an access.


The thing that bothers me about this case is the fact that it was ONE blow. If he was killed, this killer had been interrupted or was supremely confidant that he could kill Chaim. The one blow is why an accident has to be considered. It wasn;t like Chaim was mauled or anything. The only thing I can think of is that the kille did not want to risk drawing attention if he struck him multiple times.

It;s really important to know what Chaims size was. If Chaim was average size, this kind of rules out his fellow classmates from being suspects. Just imagine a power forward in the NBA trying to move another power forward in the NBA from his bed and you'll see what I'm getting at. An average size kid is not going to confidant that he can lift the body of another average size kid.

It makes much more sense that a full grown adult would chance moving the body.

Looking at it know, i lean toward this being the act of an outside individual. I don;t think this person necessarily has to be connected to the school. Possibly the jogger that was seen. I think it;s quite possible their could have been someone who lived near the school and harbored anti-semitism and killed Chaim as a means to hurt the school.
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