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Old 12-16-2010, 11:56 PM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TracyLynnS
How tall is Amy? I'm 5'6" and the railings on our balcony (from our room) were high enough that I would have had to make a conscious effort to go over the railing (unless there were extreme external forces, such as high seas, etc). There's just no way I could have accidentally gone over the rail.

My mom is 5'2" and my daughter is 5'4". They would have had to climb up onto the rail to go over.

I'm not sure about the height of the railings on the outer decks where people just go for a walk or sit in the public area deck chairs. I'm assuming that they were as high as the rails of my balcony, and that all the railings would have been at the same standard of height.

We could probably do a bit of research and find out the dimensions of the rails. EDIT: I just got out my vacation photos. My son is 6' tall. The height of the railing was above his waist, but below his chest. Even at 6' tall, it looks like it would have been hard for him to accidentally fall over the rail. In the photos I have of many other cruisers looking over the railings with their elbows resting on the top rail, it looks like the height of the rail is just below their chests.

Oh, and a lady who had cruised on our ship a couple years before us lost a large amount of money at the on board casino. She suicided by jumping over the rail and they think the gambling loss was a major part of her motive. I've also heard of several other deliberate "overboards". An elderly man in poor health cruised alone with the intention of committing suicide. He left a note in his room. I'm sure cruise bruise dot com has other examples.

I don't think Amy committed suicide or accidentally went over the rail, unless maybe she was drunk and goofing around. I feel that foul play is involved. She was a pretty young woman who was partying, socializing with new people, and since a ship is like a "closed society", it can give some people a false sense of security.
I have never on a cruise of any significant length, but I have been on several lengthy ferry rides. The crews on the ferries seemed to keep an eye on solo passengers and people "acting odd." The railings, however, were low enough for a person that was "horsing around" or put some effort into it to fall overboard.

Those were short range trips over relatively well-traveled bodies of water. I can imagine that if a person were inclined to "leave" the ship (for whatever reason) in mid-voyage in the ocean or a sea, there would be little to impede them.

The biggest issue I have w/ this being a murder is this: Given the relatively lax security and terrible investigative techniques of the cruise ship's security, they should have been able to locate:

1) A crime scene.
2) A witness (at least one)
3) Some type of forensic evidence (primarily blood) See #1
4) At least one passenger (or crew member) acting strangely when the search for Ms. Bradley began.

That they were unable to locate one or all of the above (although they might have done so and covered it up) makes me believe that none existed. And without those, this appears to be more of a tragic accident (or intentional act) than a homicide.

W/O knowing Ms. Bradley's psychological history,her emotional state during the cruise and her ability to tolerate alcohol, there's really no way to rule out suicide/accident.
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Old 12-17-2010, 03:31 AM   #77
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Her father stated at 530 am she was in her bed. He gets up at 6 and shes gone. The balcony door is open and she is never seen again. They checked all over the boat and every room was searched. Sounds to me like she fell in and drowned. Though it is coast gaurd regulation that there are to be lookouts posted on both sides of the boat, it is possible they werent and no one saw her go in. Many bodies lost at sea are never recovered its nothing new by any means.
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Old 12-17-2010, 09:18 AM   #78
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http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/b/bradley_amy.html

Amy was 5' 7" tall and weighed 115 pounds.
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Old 12-17-2010, 09:25 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by kane7474
Though it is coast gaurd regulation that there are to be lookouts posted on both sides of the boat, it is possible they werent and no one saw her go in.
Would this Coast Guard rule have been followed on a foreign ship in foreign waters? As far as I can tell, Royal Caribbean is flagged out of Liberia and was near the Netherlands Antilles (an island next to the now vilified Aruba) which is very close to the South American continent.
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Old 12-17-2010, 11:04 AM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TracyLynnS
Would this Coast Guard rule have been followed on a foreign ship in foreign waters? As far as I can tell, Royal Caribbean is flagged out of Liberia and was near the Netherlands Antilles (an island next to the now vilified Aruba) which is very close to the South American continent.
Coast Guard rules and regulations only apply to ships entering US ports and that are in US territorial waters. Outside of the US' area of control, the ship has its own rules, international maritime rules and whatever requirements its insurers demand for their coverage.

I don't think most people realize how slipshod and unregulated the cruise industries is. I have read several books about it (I was planning on taking a cruise next fall) and those books paint a disturbing portrait of an industry that is far more interested in making profits than the safety or the security of their passengers and crew.

That there aren't more cases like Ms. Bradley's seems to be more "luck" than any concern (or even skill) on the part of the cruise lines.
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Old 12-17-2010, 11:29 AM   #81
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Coast Guard rules and regulations only apply to ships entering US ports and that are in US territorial waters. Outside of the US' area of control, the ship has its own rules, international maritime rules and whatever requirements its insurers demand for their coverage.

I don't think most people realize how slipshod and unregulated the cruise industries is. I have read several books about it (I was planning on taking a cruise next fall) and those books paint a disturbing portrait of an industry that is far more interested in making profits than the safety or the security of their passengers and crew.

That there aren't more cases like Ms. Bradley's seems to be more "luck" than any concern (or even skill) on the part of the cruise lines.
They are all suppose to maintain a port and starboard watch but like you said being flagged in a foriegn country they really dont adhere to many standards. The bottome line is that if they are in US waters they are suppose to adhere to our basic standards but this is rarely enforced. Last I had heard there was only a handfull of ships flagged in the US. I mean literally there where less then 10. This is why I have no desire to go on a cruise. If these companies flag their ships in foreign countries to aviod coast gaurd regs then something is wrong.

Anyhow I just watched the segment again and realized I was wrong in what I had said. According to Amy's father he had seen her asleep on the balcony at 530am with the balcony door closed. Then when he awoke again the balcony door was open and Amy was gone. She had changed clothes and grabbed her cigarettes. So now I see why the family thinks she was taken rather then simply falling over. I mean if she had gotten up and simply fallen over the balcony then how did the door get open? How did her cigs go missing and how could she have changed clothes? Then you have the bass player mentioning to Amy's brother about her being missing before anyone else knew (alteast according to the brother) and then ofcourse we have the witness who claims seeing Amy with the bass player that morning.

Im just baffled as to how she could have been removed from that ship without someone seeing. Im wondering if anyone knows if any LE agency like coast gaurd or FBI would have also searched the boat or if the crew just did their own search? Obviously if the crew was doing the searching then she could have been hidin somewhere and later removed when the ship docked somewhere else.
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Old 12-17-2010, 12:05 PM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kane7474
They are all suppose to maintain a port and starboard watch but like you said being flagged in a foriegn country they really dont adhere to many standards. The bottome line is that if they are in US waters they are suppose to adhere to our basic standards but this is rarely enforced. Last I had heard there was only a handfull of ships flagged in the US. I mean literally there where less then 10. This is why I have no desire to go on a cruise. If these companies flag their ships in foreign countries to aviod coast gaurd regs then something is wrong.

Anyhow I just watched the segment again and realized I was wrong in what I had said. According to Amy's father he had seen her asleep on the balcony at 530am with the balcony door closed. Then when he awoke again the balcony door was open and Amy was gone. She had changed clothes and grabbed her cigarettes. So now I see why the family thinks she was taken rather then simply falling over. I mean if she had gotten up and simply fallen over the balcony then how did the door get open? How did her cigs go missing and how could she have changed clothes? Then you have the bass player mentioning to Amy's brother about her being missing before anyone else knew (alteast according to the brother) and then ofcourse we have the witness who claims seeing Amy with the bass player that morning.

Im just baffled as to how she could have been removed from that ship without someone seeing. Im wondering if anyone knows if any LE agency like coast gaurd or FBI would have also searched the boat or if the crew just did their own search? Obviously if the crew was doing the searching then she could have been hidin somewhere and later removed when the ship docked somewhere else.
The cruise ship industry spends millions of dollars in lobbying to prevent serious oversight of their industry. Since most Americans never take cruises and aren't familiar w/ maritime rules and regulations, the industry has been "safe" from scrutiny as a result.

1) Her "falling overboard" unless she was "goofing around" does seem unlikely, but stranger things have happened.

2) Her father's and brother's memories could be confabulations of multiple events that occurred around the same time but not when they thought they did. Since most people rarely document their activities and then only after the fact, it's easy that during a stressful situation it could be easy to lose track of what occurred and when.

The father MAY have seen her at a certain time but perhaps earlier than he thought. The bass player may have made the remark to the brother later than he remembered.

I never found the bass player's remarks as odd as on a small community like a ship, the gossip mill would working overtime to spread the word of rare event like a missing passenger.

3) I would imagine that any initial search of the ship would have been performed by the crew. Then local LE. And at a later period (and after much discussion) the FBI.The laws of the flag country would apply to any potential criminal activity that occurred aboard,and it's doubtful that they would as strict as those of the US.

I never bought that she was hidden on the ship. If someone were going to kidnap her, it would have been much easier to do so on LAND, rather than from a ship and we all know that most criminals prefer doing things the "easy way."
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Old 12-17-2010, 01:15 PM   #83
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Maybe they did kidnap her on land, some crewmember had told her to meet them somewhere, and a cab driver reported her running up to his cab later that morning. And what about the numerous sightings of her since then?

You seen pretty adamant that she went overboard. Trust me, it's hard to go overboard on a ship, any ship, let alone a cruise ship that obviously has peoples safety in mind with the handrails and such. And about the watch thing, people slack off on watch on ships everywhere, its not about a ship not putting them on watch, its about the people not looking and daydreaming.

You also talked before about the lack of security onboard, and how they couldnt find a crime scene. WHAT? That makes it more plausible that she was abducted. AND if there was a crime scene they would have had time to cover it up because of the lack of security. And the fact that you keep saying the cruise lines how "slipshod" the cruise industries are, doesn't that point to how easy it would be for criminals to pull something like this off.

I think it's pretty obvious there's something more to this than just a person falling overboard.
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Old 12-17-2010, 01:21 PM   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rabbitman
Maybe they did kidnap her on land, some crewmember had told her to meet them somewhere, and a cab driver reported her running up to his cab later that morning. And what about the numerous sightings of her since then?

You seen pretty adamant that she went overboard. Trust me, it's hard to go overboard on a ship, any ship, let alone a cruise ship that obviously has peoples safety in mind with the handrails and such. And about the watch thing, people slack off on watch on ships everywhere, its not about a ship not putting them on watch, its about the people not looking and daydreaming.

You also talked before about the lack of security onboard, and how they couldnt find a crime scene. WHAT? That makes it more plausible that she was abducted. AND if there was a crime scene they would have had time to cover it up because of the lack of security. And the fact that you keep saying the cruise lines how "slipshod" the cruise industries are, doesn't that point to how easy it would be for criminals to pull something like this off.

I think it's pretty obvious there's something more to this than just a person falling overboard.
Well as far as the sightings go I wouldnt put alot of weight on that. Look at other missing persons who are seen all over the place and then it turns out they where dead all along. Kari lynn Nixon is one that comes to mind right off hand but there are many many more like this.
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Old 12-17-2010, 01:37 PM   #85
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has anyone seen the so called photo of a Amy kidnapped that was on DrPhill I think?

N e Ways they found a jawbone they thought was Natalie Holloway, but it wasnt. A lot of people thought about Amy Bradley.
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Old 12-17-2010, 02:03 PM   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rabbitman
Maybe they did kidnap her on land, some crewmember had told her to meet them somewhere, and a cab driver reported her running up to his cab later that morning. And what about the numerous sightings of her since then?

You seen pretty adamant that she went overboard. Trust me, it's hard to go overboard on a ship, any ship, let alone a cruise ship that obviously has peoples safety in mind with the handrails and such. And about the watch thing, people slack off on watch on ships everywhere, its not about a ship not putting them on watch, its about the people not looking and daydreaming.

You also talked before about the lack of security onboard, and how they couldnt find a crime scene. WHAT? That makes it more plausible that she was abducted. AND if there was a crime scene they would have had time to cover it up because of the lack of security. And the fact that you keep saying the cruise lines how "slipshod" the cruise industries are, doesn't that point to how easy it would be for criminals to pull something like this off.

I think it's pretty obvious there's something more to this than just a person falling overboard.
Let's see:

1) I believe that her father last saw her aboard the ship. That's something that would hard to mistake or confabulate, unless he was ill or very intoxicated.

2) Eyewitness sighting are notoriously inaccurate. In fact, few cases make it into court these days relying solely or primarily upon eyewitness identification unless the eyewitness knew the person beforehand.

The people who claim to have seen Ms. Bradley see HUNDREDS of similar looking tourists a week. It's not hard to imagine that they might mistake another person for Ms. Bradley, especially since they don't know her personally.

3) How is it "hard" to go overboard on a ship? It may difficult to accidentally fall overboard due to a slip or the motion of the vessel, but it wouldn't be that "hard" if you lean too far over a railing or are standing on it.

And I assume that you mean a cruise ship, not a cargo vessel, ferry or any other type of ship. Those are even easier to fall from or jump from than a cruise ship.

4) There is security aboard. The quality of the security is what would be lacking. Their focus would be mostly towards keeping order among rowdy passengers, preventing theft of personal items and preventing the theft of company property. Solving felonies, particularly kidnappings or murders, would easily be beyond their limited skills and would probably be outside their job descriptions.

While in an environment like that it would be easy to cover up a crime scene for someone that had the presence of mind and skills to do as such, most of those type of people aren't going to be working for a cruise line, are they? Or be passengers.

I think that it's a safe assumption that Ms. Bradley went overboard. Why? Because short of the bilge tanks and the fuel tanks (which would necessarily have limited access) there be few places on a ship to hide an incapacitated or dead adult human being. Also, it's likely that the ship was searched after arriving in port. That would probably include any baggage taken off by passengers that left the ship at that port, although it may not have.And it's doubtful that the crew would have been allowed to leave the ship during a search for a missing passenger, making it unlikely for them to be able to remove anything.

With no signs of a struggle, no obvious forensic evidence (especially blood) and no one claiming to have heard screams nor the sounds of a struggle, it's very likely that none occurred.

She wasn't found on the ship. She wasn't found on land. No lifeboats were missing and there's been no credible evidence that she has been sighted anywhere else since she was last seen on the ship.

In fact, had the family not been so insistent on their timeline and the "fact" that Ms. Bradley wouldn't have committed suicide, it's likely that this would have been chalked up as being the accidental death, or suicide, that it appears to be.
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Old 12-17-2010, 07:19 PM   #87
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Am I the only one who thinks the photos of the prostitute from the brothel website look nothing like Amy at all? As for her disappearance, I find it hard to believe that an intelligent, drug free, adult female would not have tried to get help by now if she were in fact taken against her will. If someone did in fact abduct her on board, how did they get her off the ship? If they did drug her (as the UM segment implied) don't you think someone would have remembered seeing a man/men dragging a woman who appeared to be sick/intoxicated? Another reason I don't buy the whole abduction theory is Amy was someone who was easily distinguishable. How many other women on that ship wore their hair as short as Amy's? Perhaps a couple, but Amy was could easily be identified based off of her hair and her age, IMO. Very risky for someone to haul her off the ship without someone noticing.

I really think it's pretty cut and dry as to what happened to Amy. She was sleeping/resting out on the deck, she may have been intoxicated, and then she decided she needed a quick cigarette before she went to bed for the remainder of the morning. So she opens the sliding door, grabs her cigarettes, and goes back out to smoke and that's when she falls in. That would explain why her cigarettes were missing, she may have been holding the pack in one hand. It would also account for the door being open...smoking a single cigarette would have taken no longer than two minutes so she probably thought she'd be right back in. If she were drunk that would certainly lead even more credence to the fact that she fell in. I know she was deathly afraid of looking overboard, but I think the family brought that up in the UM segment to kind of hold on to hope that she was still alive and didn't want to belive that their daughter/sister died in a drunken accident. Perhaps in her intoxicated state she got up enough courage to actually look over the edge, slipped and then fell in. I really think that's all that happened. A tragic accident.
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Old 12-17-2010, 08:34 PM   #88
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Quote:
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I was planning on taking a cruise next fall.
I'm far from a world traveler, but have a bit of advice.

I was in my 30s when I went on two cruises in the early 2000s, but (due to a heart condition and some other health problems) I bought a $500,000 traveler's insurance policy for each trip. I had read up on ships' on-board medical providers and wasn't impressed.

During both cruises, a person had to be evacuated (not in our party). We changed course and headed toward an island with some kind of air transport for the sick passenger. That kind of health emergency could be financially devastating without insurance to cover medivac type flights back to the US, etc.

Also, and this really ticked me off, on the Royal Caribbean cruise, my husband got swimmer's ear. It's fairly easy to treat and I thought the on-board store would have basics like swimmer's ear treatment, tylenol, etc. They don't.

The ship's staff suggested we visit the on-board doctor for treatment. Instead, we went to the bar, asked for a glass of the highest proof booze they had, and poured it in hubby's ear. It was WAY cheaper than a trip to the ship's doctor, and it cured the swimmer's ear.
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Old 12-17-2010, 09:09 PM   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TracyLynnS
I'm far from a world traveler, but have a bit of advice.

I was in my 30s when I went on two cruises in the early 2000s, but (due to a heart condition and some other health problems) I bought a $500,000 traveler's insurance policy for each trip. I had read up on ships' on-board medical providers and wasn't impressed.

During both cruises, a person had to be evacuated (not in our party). We changed course and headed toward an island with some kind of air transport for the sick passenger. That kind of health emergency could be financially devastating without insurance to cover medivac type flights back to the US, etc.

Also, and this really ticked me off, on the Royal Caribbean cruise, my husband got swimmer's ear. It's fairly easy to treat and I thought the on-board store would have basics like swimmer's ear treatment, tylenol, etc. They don't.

The ship's staff suggested we visit the on-board doctor for treatment. Instead, we went to the bar, asked for a glass of the highest proof booze they had, and poured it in hubby's ear. It was WAY cheaper than a trip to the ship's doctor, and it cured the swimmer's ear.
Thanks, I appreciate the advice.

We are deciding between a Great Lakes cruise from Chicago to Montreal or a Caribbean cruise. Both are in the budget range...so we'll see how things go.

My concerns about the cruise are the same as they are when I travel to Mexico...or anywhere for that matter: theft of items from the room. I don't usually worry about any kind of violence as I'm a pretty big guy and I stay away from places that look like there would be some kind of BS going on.

Since neither of us drink and we don't get high, I think that makes us unlikely to run into a some of the situations that you read about or that they make UM segments about.

Again, thanks for the advice. We'll get the insurance and bring along a first aid kit of our own just to be on the safe side.
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Old 12-18-2010, 09:03 AM   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheCars1986
Am I the only one who thinks the photos of the prostitute from the brothel website look nothing like Amy at all? As for her disappearance, I find it hard to believe that an intelligent, drug free, adult female would not have tried to get help by now if she were in fact taken against her will. If someone did in fact abduct her on board, how did they get her off the ship? If they did drug her (as the UM segment implied) don't you think someone would have remembered seeing a man/men dragging a woman who appeared to be sick/intoxicated? Another reason I don't buy the whole abduction theory is Amy was someone who was easily distinguishable. How many other women on that ship wore their hair as short as Amy's? Perhaps a couple, but Amy was could easily be identified based off of her hair and her age, IMO. Very risky for someone to haul her off the ship without someone noticing.

I really think it's pretty cut and dry as to what happened to Amy. She was sleeping/resting out on the deck, she may have been intoxicated, and then she decided she needed a quick cigarette before she went to bed for the remainder of the morning. So she opens the sliding door, grabs her cigarettes, and goes back out to smoke and that's when she falls in. That would explain why her cigarettes were missing, she may have been holding the pack in one hand. It would also account for the door being open...smoking a single cigarette would have taken no longer than two minutes so she probably thought she'd be right back in. If she were drunk that would certainly lead even more credence to the fact that she fell in. I know she was deathly afraid of looking overboard, but I think the family brought that up in the UM segment to kind of hold on to hope that she was still alive and didn't want to belive that their daughter/sister died in a drunken accident. Perhaps in her intoxicated state she got up enough courage to actually look over the edge, slipped and then fell in. I really think that's all that happened. A tragic accident.
I agree with this..here's why: the picture as i mentioned many posts ago doesnt match up with her symetrical facial features of the eyes. Secondly, It would make sense why she left the door ajar if she assumed she was going to come back as you mentioned. If i was going out to smoke, sure i'd take the full pack with me, why not? and then maybe feeling sick as i mentioned, perhaps leaning over the railing to throw up..whoops i fall in! It's so black and white pretty much. The timing is key here. There is not enough timing for anything else really? Let's say another boat pulled up, well someone on this ship would have seen them. It's fun to play with the idea of kidnappers and how they would hide her out or human traffic her but lets get realistic here..so many bodies are not recovered in the fast ocean. If she would have left with a guy then someone on the ship as the look-out would have seen them walk away..its pretty cut and paste. I do think her family wants that hope that someone took her but it doesnt sound plausible given all the facts here and how she was by the railing to begin with.
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