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Old 11-09-2010, 09:53 PM   #136
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keeprollin'
In the book, ANATOMY OF MOTIVE, author John Douglas states that the combination of the missed promotion, Bishop's supposedly overbearing mother, and the fact that Bishop's wife didn't want to travel anymore could be considered motives to kill but they are, according to the author, "far from convincing, especially when you consider the brutal manner in which the murders were committed." Anybody agree at all?
Unless he just snapped and went berzerk, I'm starting to think that the motive presented is looking kinda iffy.

The method of killings and body disposal seems to indicate a highly emotional crime. As if the murders were perpetrated by a guy who absolutely hates his victims. That part may fit well with the accepted motive.

But I think a previous poster has good points about Bishop possibly being a framed victim.

I'm not sure how many other parents who've killed their kids, and whole families, have done it in such a brutal manner as these murders.

Susan Smith drowned her kids (tortuous, but not messy and time consuming). There was the MI guy who drowned his 4 kids in the family car by driving into the Detroit River (1980s). He swam out of the car. I can't remember if he helped his wife get out of the car or not, but she was not killed. There was another MI guy (1990s?) who drowned his kids out in Washington or Oregon. Andrea Yates drowned all her five kids in the family bathtub. (Did she later lay the dead children out in their beds? I can't remember. That kind of comes across as an act of twisted compassion.) It's an unimaginable crime, but not similar to the level of violence in the Bishop case.

John List seems to be the closest to Bishop in his crimes, in that he killed everyone, including his mother. But unlike Bishop, he shot his victims, then placed them in sleeping bags. (Another twisted act of "caring"?) Still a horrific crime, but he didn't take it further and set fire to the bodies like in the Bishop case.

Anyway, I'm just kind of wondering out loud, how common is it for a murdering parent to do it so violently? Maybe Bishop really is a victim.
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Old 11-09-2010, 11:25 PM   #137
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Quote:
Unless he just snapped and went berzerk, I'm starting to think that the motive presented is looking kinda iffy.

The method of killings and body disposal seems to indicate a highly emotional crime. As if the murders were perpetrated by a guy who absolutely hates his victims. That part may fit well with the accepted motive.

But I think a previous poster has good points about Bishop possibly being a framed victim.

I'm not sure how many other parents who've killed their kids, and whole families, have done it in such a brutal manner as these murders.

Susan Smith drowned her kids (tortuous, but not messy and time consuming). There was the MI guy who drowned his 4 kids in the family car by driving into the Detroit River (1980s). He swam out of the car. I can't remember if he helped his wife get out of the car or not, but she was not killed. There was another MI guy (1990s?) who drowned his kids out in Washington or Oregon. Andrea Yates drowned all her five kids in the family bathtub. (Did she later lay the dead children out in their beds? I can't remember. That kind of comes across as an act of twisted compassion.) It's an unimaginable crime, but not similar to the level of violence in the Bishop case.

John List seems to be the closest to Bishop in his crimes, in that he killed everyone, including his mother. But unlike Bishop, he shot his victims, then placed them in sleeping bags. (Another twisted act of "caring"?) Still a horrific crime, but he didn't take it further and set fire to the bodies like in the Bishop case.

Anyway, I'm just kind of wondering out loud, how common is it for a murdering parent to do it so violently? Maybe Bishop really is a victim.
To me, the motive presented actually sounds very convincing. The fact that he would kill his family in such a brutal fashion shows how much he cares which is not at all. And only somebody who cares that little could kill so brutally for reasons that minor and continue to live with himself to this day as if nothing happened. I believe the idea that Brad had a huge ego and couldn't stand losing or accepting anything less than perfection.
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Old 11-10-2010, 12:36 AM   #138
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In the book 'NOT WANTED' I found a sort of timeline of Bishop's career. Its interesting to note that he began working for the State Department in the fall of 1965, and in between November of that year and January of 1972 Bishop was promoted a total of 5 times and did a great deal of travelling (on assignment) from Washington D.C. to Ethiopia to Italy, back to D.C. then to South Africa. But in between January of 1972 and March of 1976 Bishop was not promoted at all at any point. For a guy who graduated from Yale, went to the army for 4 years, then, on top of his degree from Yale, added 2 master's degrees from 2 other colleges, for a guy with that resume not to get promoted at all for 4 consecutive years from '72-'76, that has to be extremely frustrating. He probably starts to wonder if he has a purpose in life. We know that he was seeing a psychiatrist and was prescribed medication for depression. And the fact that his wife was no longer just playing the role of the loyal housewife and was taking art classes at the university of Maryland and along with the kids had become comfortable living in Bethesda, that could have caused him to resent her probably because he had always had total control and now he felt like he was probably losing it, I don't know for sure but thats what it looks like to me. His mother moving in with them 5 years before the murders is what allowed his wife to be more free to do her own thing, so maybe, after a while he began to resent his mother for, in his mind, ruining his perfect image of what a family is supposed to look like.

Also in 'NOT WANTED' and on the america's most wanted website I learned something puzzling and inexplicable. On March 31, 1993, investigators for the Montgomery County Sheriff's Department announced that the previous fall they uncovered an overlooked letter addressed to Bishop that, had it been found by authorities who originally investigated the unsolved Bishop murders case, would have been a very valuable piece of evidence. The letter implied but did not directly state that Bishop might have been interested in hiring a professional killer--with the implication that it would be to kill his family. The theory, along with the possibility that Bishop had long-standing plans to dispose of the bodies in North Carolina, and planned to rendezvous with a woman in that state, stems from the letter written by an imprisoned bank robber to Bishop just before the slayings, Montgomery Sheriff Raymond M. Kight announced. The sheriff went on to say that if the letter had been found in a timely fashion it very well might have affected the Bishop investigation if police had been able to interview the man who wrote it, who died in 1983. The letter was found in September 1992 in Bishop's files at the State Department by Sheriff's sergeant Thomas L. Keefer and retired Montgomery County homicide detective John E. Cady, who volunteered to assist Kight after the Sheriff initiated a new look at the investigation. The failure to find the letter in the initial investigation, coupled with other evidence that was misplaced, suggests that the investigation was "somewhat slipshod," said Kight. He said county police and the FBI visited Bishop's office the day the letter was postmarked and did not learn of its existence until over 15 years later.

The uncovered registered letter was written by bank robber A. Ken Bankston, who was at that time an inmate at the federal penitentiary in Marion, Illinois. It was postmarked March 15, 1976, and would have arrived at Bishop's office a few days later, according to Sheriff's investigators. That would have been just a day or so after Montgomery County police and the FBI had searched the office for clues. Apparently the letter was opened by a secretary and then placed in Bishop's files, which were then packed away until the investigation was re-opened. The letter makes no direct, specific mention of any murder plot, but investigators believed that it might offer new insights into possible preparations for the crime that Bishop might have engaged in. The investigators were unable to find any record of other correspondence between Bishop and Bankston. But the numeral "6" was placed at the top of the letter by Bankston, and in the text were mentions of letters 4 and 5 which he said that he had written to Bishop the previous month (February 1976).

In one portion of the discovered letter Bankston wrote, "Now, in answer to your question, I am most sure that she is in a North Carolina state penitentiary." Although "she" is not identified, investigators recalled that a witness in Jacksonville, North Carolina, had reported seeing Bishop with a female companion the day after the murders, and that Bishop had used his credit card in a sporting goods store while the woman, about his age, waited outside with an Irish setter on a leash. Sergeant Keefer said that Bishop's golden retriever, Leo, had a dark coat and could have been mistaken for a setter. He and Cady set to work checking a list of all women released from North Carolina prisons during a period prior to March 1976, especially those who might have been assigned to a halfway house in or near Jacksonville.

Bankston also informed Bishop that "you could walk from Phelps Lake to Creswell. I think it is about five miles...." After checking atlases and making calls to several states, Keefer and Cady determined that Phelps Lake and Creswell are in North Carolina, just a few miles from where the bodies were found.

Keefer and Cady put in long hours, helped by the FBI, trying to track down people mentioned or referred to in the letter. After months of work they managed to locate a man mentioned in the letter only as "Sonny," who told them that he believed that Bishop had offered a passport to Bankston in return for information on how to hire a killer. The investigators say that they got conflicting answers from the State Department about whether Bishop could have been able to procure passports for himself and/or others. In the letter, Bankston wrote, "I am only interested in Mexico and/or Central America, as you know." Bankston died of cancer in 1983 in Mississippi after gaining an early release from prison for medical reasons. For whatever its worth, "Sonny" was referred to by Bankston in the letter as "a very capeable person."

Another convict mentioned in the letter, David Allen Paul, told a reporter from The Washington Post in a telephone interview that Bishop wanted "a shooter....he was willing to spend good money and more to kill his family." Allen was being held in jail in Salt Lake City awaiting a parole violation hearing. He further stated that Bishop "hired a couple of men to do the job, but they took off on him." That could explain why the murders were committed in the fashion that they were, almost as if Bishop had become frustrated and impatient.

* * * *

After finding out about all this, I'm finding it increasingly difficult to believe in any alternative theory about CIA involvement or any Balkan revenge, although at this point neither can be disproven. But why on earth would a respected government offical with the state department be communicating behind his family's back with a prison inmate, seemingly trying to hire someone to kill his family before eventually giving up on any hitman and evidently doing the job himself? And how could Bishop come home every day for a month or longer and look his family members in the eye, all the while secretly planning their demise. How evil is that? If that truly was the purpose of the letters he was exchanging with the prison inmate then I cannot look at him as a victim.

Last edited by dallascowboyfan; 11-10-2010 at 10:19 AM.
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Old 11-10-2010, 01:32 AM   #139
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Wow! Good info! (and reminds me that I need to hurry up and order my true crime books that were suggested by fellow UM fans. )

It's 1:30am here, and I'm starting to get too tired to make much sense... I know, hard to tell the difference anyway! lol I'm not comprehending the full amount of this new info yet, but it sure seems like it sure was a shame for it to end up overlooked. Could have been beneficial to the outcome.

I'll check back in tomorrow and have a look at this so I can discuss this news in a slightly more coherent manner.
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Old 11-10-2010, 11:55 AM   #140
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I never really thought about a government conspiracy/coverup etc. until I read it here. However, I still think he did it. I don't think the CIA would have burned the bodies; I think they either would never have been found or they would have outright tried to frame him by leaving the bodies in the house. All of that being said, as much as I think Bishop did it, it would not surprised me if there was something else going on here, CIA or otherwise and that Bishop was innocent. Stranger things have happened.
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Old 11-15-2010, 10:40 PM   #141
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I have to wonder, though, just how much help inmate Ken Bankston would've have been had authorities been able to interview him, had they found the letter in a timely manner. It seems like he may have played a part in helping Bishop get out of the country, but I don't see where Bankston could know about Bishop's whereabouts after leaving the country.
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Old 11-22-2010, 11:38 AM   #142
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My opinions?

1) Bradford Bishop was a disturbed and controlling man that murdered his family when it appeared that his life was spiraling out of control.

2) Bishop then took his family to a remote wooded area, attempted to burn the bodies and the drove another distance and abandoned his car in the Smoky Mountains.

I don't believe that Bishop ever left the mountains. I believe that he attempted to hide in the area and probably died from an illness and/or exposure. Or possibly committed suicide and his body was never found.I think that the "sightings" in Europe are either people mistaking another person for Bishop or just as likely people trying bring attention to themselves by saying that they saw a wanted fugitive.

After this length of time, w/ no apparent financial resources and no stated ability to avoid police investigations, I believe that Bradford Bishop is dead.

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Old 11-24-2010, 01:26 AM   #143
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Hey, I'm new to this story, out of morbid curiosity. (This and the John List story have been keeping me up at night. )

I've got a few questions about Bishop:

1) The man literally beat his family to death, so he could escape from the lull his career had fallen into and start fresh in Europe. For a man to do something like this, there would have to have been deeper issues in his family history, especially if he was taking meds for depression. Are there any books/articles/notes that explain his childhood? Possibly his relation with his parents or in school?

2) What exactly was Bishop's relation with his wife and kids? I'm assuming that if he was secretly planning to murder his family, there had to have been some friction going on for a while. Maybe he was secretly disappointed at Annette's budding art life, or his kids' social lives, or just that none of them were following in his footsteps?
If not, then William's story is far, far worse than what John List did. His entire marriage and fatherhood, in other words, the mere existence of William III, Brent, and Geoff would have been a facade that he ultimately rejected. The man that the family knew as a reliable patriarch suddenly came home as a savage monster who wanted nothing to do with them anymore. And on top of that, no religion to back himself up.

3) If there was no friction in the Bishop family, but Bishop was still having problems at work, could he not have run away without killing them? Because he has currently been on the lam for almost 35 years, and because even former friends and colleagues have no idea where he is, there was a chance that his immediate family would have trouble finding him as well.

4) For him to be so devastated by his final passover from a promotion, would that suggest that perhaps his dream job's days were numbered?

5) Whatever became of Leo? (And the poor pooch might've been the only witness of the family bloodbath. )

6) Could the meds he was taking (Serax) have been another factor in his sudden flip-out?

7) Where have the Bishop family been interred after their discovery and identification?

8) Does the Bishops have any surviving relatives in the United States?

9) (Probably the most important question of all): How close are they to finding this guy? Did anybody see his most recent profile on America's Most Wanted?

This is all very sad. Bishop has spent nearly half his life up to now as a fugitive, and now there's a growing chance that he might die before he is ever caught, meaning he will have successfully gotten away with his crime. It's also an example of how one can be too intelligent, because his I.Q. was used to the severe disadvantage of his loved ones.
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Old 11-24-2010, 12:07 PM   #144
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For some reason, I was thinking that all 5 victims had been beaten to death in their beds in the early evening. I wondered how two adults (mother and wife) and all three kids would have been in bed so early, and not heard anything suspicious, especially since the house was average sized and such noises should have been easily heard from one room to another. But according to the AMW site, I was mistaken about the timeline.

Did Bishop leave work early that day or was it at the normal time? AMW says he stopped to buy the murder weapon and gasoline to burn the bodies with on his way home from work and that he arrived home in the evening. An exact time is not given.

I can understand a killer buying the murder weapon right before the crime, but why would Bishop buy gasoline and travel with it and the bodies in a station wagon for 300 miles. I've driven with a couple cans of gas in the trunk of my car long enough to get 3 miles home from the gas station, and the fumes are very unpleasant. A 300 mile trip with a gas can right in the passenger compartment seems weird to me, but then murdering your entire family isn't exactly normal...

They infer that when Bishop got home, the kids were already asleep. They state that his mother was out walking the dog. He beat his wife to death first. When his mom got home, he beat her to death. Then, he went to the children's rooms and beat them to death while they were asleep in their beds.

It's possible, but I think a bit unlikely, that two adults were beaten to death without any of the three kids hearing impacts, thuds, screams, something, and being awakened. Did the kids have their own rooms? Did any of the boys share a room? If they shared a room, how could one child be violently beaten to death in that room without the other child waking up to such a scene and then fighting back when he was attacked?

The motive is supposedly that Bishop wanted to live outside the US and his wife did not. That "might" have caused friction in the marriage. They say he was addicted to prescription medication, but don't say what it was. He was seeing a therapist that they say could "possibly" have been for depression.

IMO, there is too much of the words "might", "possibly", "could have", etc, in the official motive presented. There "might" have been friction between him and his mother. There "might" have been friction between him and his wife. He was undergoing therapy for what could "possibly" be depression. The mystery woman "could have" helped him obtain a new identity. The newly revealed correspondence with an inmate could "possibly" have the purpose of getting rid of his family buy having a convicted criminal teach him how to do it.

Also, I'm suspicious of that decades old letter. They only have what they think is the last letter, but they think there were six total. They are guessing that Bishop was corresponding with the felon in order to learn how to be a criminal, but the letter they have doesn't indicate anything sinister. The only connection they have between Bishop and the prisoner is that they both served in different branches of the military and were never stationed near each other. That's a connection?

The whole thing sounds like officials don't have anything solid and are just theorizing on what could have caused him to kill his entire family, but they don't really know.

Fingerprints at the grave site were taken and they matched Bishop. Were those fingerprints on the gas can and shovel? AMW doesn't say. If he was murdered and framed by professionals, it would be easy for them to press his hands onto items, leaving his fingerprints at the scene. If he's the killer, he would have known for sure that the site would be fingerprinted and they would match him. He wasn't stupid. Was he so arrogant and confident in his escape plan that he didn't care about leaving evidence at the scene?

I need to read a book or two on this case and understand the details better, but I'm still suspicious of why the bodies were placed into a grave, but were then set on fire. Why not just skip the fire and cover the bodies with dirt? A burial in the forest would have delayed or completely prevented their discovery but an arson always draws attention.

If Bishop set the bodies on fire, it could indicate that he really hated his family and wanted to completely destory them. It could also mean that he was wasn't thinking clearly, maybe due to the medication they say he was addicted to, or depression they think he suffered.

Otherwise, I can't figure out why an intelligent guy like Bishop would bring attention to the murdered bodies with a blazing fire when he had concealed everything so well thus far. But then, if he was framed by professionals, wouldn't they be smart enough to dispose of the bodies and not bring further attention by setting the fire?
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Old 11-24-2010, 01:10 PM   #145
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So far, I've answered some of my own questions.

Bishop didn't kill the family on the day he was passed over for a promotion. They were murdered 5 days later.

The day of the killings, Bishop left work early. The info is in an article on page 2 of this thread. It just says he left "early" but doesn't say what time.

At that time, he also withdrew $400 in cash from his bank. He bought a small sledgehammer and a 2 1/2 gallon gas can. He filled up the tank in the station wagon and the gas can at the same time.

They think the family was killed around midnight. The wife was in the study when she was hit over the head. Bishop tried to cover her body with his son's ski jacket. I don't know how they know about the use of the ski jacket, since her body was not found in the home. Did it have specific blood patterns on it that indicated it was used to cover her rather than having blood spatter patterns on it as if it were just in the room during the attack?

When his mother came in from walking the dog (at 12:00 or 1:00 am, kinda weird, imo, but impossible, for a 68 year old woman to be out walking at that time of night) she was attacked in the bathroom.

The oldest child was 14. Police think that he may have awakened during the attack and fought back, since he was beaten particularly severely.

The other two boys were ages 10 and 5. They were beaten to death while they slept in their bunk beds, so they were sharing a room.

Police aren't sure that all 5 victims were beaten with the same object. All along, they've been saying that he killed everyone with a small sledge hammer that he purchased specifically for the purpose of murder. Bishop's mother and the boys were all killed with the same blunt instrument. It's possible that Bishop's wife was also beaten with that object, but investigators aren't positive.

That's one thing that makes me suspect there could have been more than one perpetrator. Unless the object broke and was no longer useful, or he first used one object to kill his wife and found that it wasn't as effective as he'd hoped, why would Bishop switch murder weapons in the middle of a huge massacre? Or why use one weapon on the wife, and then switch to the sledge hammer he had just bought for the rest of the attacks?

Did he plan to kill them at a later date, but then had a fight or something and snapped and killed his wife with one object, then figured he might as well finish the crime earlier than planned, and switched to the sledge hammer he had just bought?

Another odd thing is that a pair of men's pajama pants were found splattered with blood, on the upper closet shelf in the master bedroom. From what I can tell, no one was killed in that room or even beaten in there, so this wasn't a case where the pants were stained with cast off blood spatter while they were in the closet. If that was the case, I would expect other clothes in the closet to have cast off blood spatter patterns.

So whose blood was on the pajamas? Was Bishop wearing pajamas when he killed his family? That throws off the claim that he came home from work and immediately started killing everyone. And why would he change out of the pajamas into street clothes and take the time to put the pants onto the top of the closet shelf? There was no need to hide them and no need to put them up out of the way. Most of the house was already covered in blood. Why not just kick the pajama pants off on the floor and change clothes?
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Old 11-24-2010, 01:47 PM   #146
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Okay, now another article, posted on page 6 of this thread says that Bishop left work at 5:00pm. I don't consider that leaving work "early", as other sources have stated. Was he supposed to leave at 6:00pm and left an hour early, so they are saying he left early, or is that just miscommunication in the reports?

It also says that he bought a half gallon gas can, and not a 2 1/2 gallon gas can. I think the 2 1/2 gallon can is probably the report that's correct. I'm not even sure gas cans were available in a half gallon size and what good would it do Bishop to get one that small when he was planning on setting fire to 5 bodies?

Another article, earlier in the thread, says that the weapon was not a small sledge hammer, but was a ball peen hammer. Are these names used interchangebly for a large hand held hammer? I picture a ball peen hammer as being too small to be a first choice in a weapon used to murder 5 people.

These reporters need to get their poop in a group. Their sloppiness reminds me of an article I read in our local paper where it was reported that a "saw saw" was stolen. I'm sure the reporter meant a "sawzall". If you were writing an article for publication and knew nothing about tools, wouldn't the name "saw saw" still sound silly enough to make you question the item and try to figure out what it really is?

And to answer one of my own questions, the fingerprint found at the grave site was Bishop's on the gas can.
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Old 11-24-2010, 02:54 PM   #147
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Gah! And as I read through the thread further today, there are another couple articles that state that Bishop was passed over for a promotion on the exact day of the murders, as opposed to an article that said it was 5 days earlier. Plus he'd missed out on a promotion 2 months before the murders.

So was it 5 days? That day? How can the reporters get so much important information goofed up in such a prominent case?
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Old 11-24-2010, 04:35 PM   #148
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TracyLynnS, in 'Not Wanted' it says, Bishop left work at 5:30p.m. and was at home by 6:30 p.m. because a neighbor saw him outside his house at that point. The murders were not initiated until around 11:00 p.m. according to investigators. First he attacked his wife, then the kids, then his mother when she came back in. That is the only way investigators could figure because his mother was killed in the upstairs bathroom and that would have surely woken up the kids. Its entirely possible, IMO, for the kids to not have heard a thud or a crash as their mom was being attacked because she was beaten downstairs near the front door, and it was a very big house.
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Old 11-24-2010, 06:13 PM   #149
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Thanks for that info Dallas.

I really have to quit being lazy and just go ahead and order the books. I think a few posts back someone even said that there's an online version of one of them available which would mean I wouldn't have to wait for it to be delivered. lol

I looked at photos of the interior and exterior of the Bishop home. The last time it was up for sale, it was over $700,000. It looks like it's been extensively remodeled with new baths and a new kitchen, plus a finished basement or lower level.

I don't know if they said how big the house was. Due to it's location and the decade it was built, I was assuming it was under 2,000 sq ft. But with it being a split level, (it looks like it could even be a quad level) I can see where it would be harder to hear a commotion in other rooms on other levels. I need to go back to the site and see if they give the size.

This whole story is just horrible, and so avoidable. At least from the outside, they had the perfect family with a perfect life. Bishop was securely employed, his kids were excelling in school and extra curriculars. They were well traveled and enjoyed a lifestyle many folks in the 70s could never afford. I really hate to think that the father could commit such a horrific crime against his own wife and mother, and most of all, against his precious kids.

Something I noticed while reading through the thread here: Bishop had insomnia and likely, mental health issues. He did not seem to be hesitant about seeking help for those problems, even though it held a huge stigma back then. If he was bi-polar, depressed, or had some other mental issues, on top of incessant insomnia, these would not have been miraculously cured after the deaths of his family members. If he survived, he must have sought treatment at some point in the last 35 years. Some medical professional somewhere must know of him, though he's probably been using a completely new identity.
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Old 11-24-2010, 06:29 PM   #150
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For what its worth, the author of 'Not Wanted' doesn't think that Bishop is still alive and thinks that Bishop died shortly after the killings. His own personal opinion is that some time not long after the murders "someone" got hold of Brad and "deep-sixed him" or "terminated him with extreme prejudice." The author explained that something may have come up in Bishop's career that made him a liability to the State Department "or possibly others" (CIA). He mentions a theory that Bishop could not be brought to trial or tried in absentia because of things that might be brought out. Hence the title of his book: 'Not Wanted.' He thinks that "these people" might have terminated Bishop because, in addition to not wanting a trial, they figured the man had committed a horrible crime, so why not serve as judge, jury, and executioner.

The Switzerland sighting in 1994 and what took place afterwards adds crediblity to this conspiracy theory. The couple that say they saw Bishop on a train in Switzerland had been neighbors of Bishop in Bethesda and had frequently played tennis with Brad and Annette. After allegedly sighting Brad Bishop on September 19, 1994, the couple returned to the U.S. the next day and told the FBI in Washington D.C. But after the couple made their report to a meticulous agent, nothing was done. The police chief in Basel Switzerland was not notified, the Swiss National Police were not notified, and INTERPOL was not notified either. When such a fugitive is sighted, a world-wide alert would go out, both to National police agencies and to INTERPOL to be on lookout. For someone of Bishop's 'stature' the highest level of alert would be at the very highest. But, in this case, nothing was done. The possibility exists that when the couple made their report to the FBI, there was some sort of 'little red flag' indicating something like "Take no action, this has been dealt with...." All of this would mean that the couple in Switzerland was mistaken.
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