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Old 04-10-2009, 03:29 PM   #61
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And regarding the Ellender case and the satanic cult angle...

The satanic group was supposed to be a bunch of kids who called themselves SKATERS which stood for Satans Kids Against The Establishment.

This was 1991. Now if they called themselves Skaters because they were into skate boarding, I could see that making sense. But 18 and 19 year olds in 1991 were not calling "the establishment" by that name. That was what the counter culture of the 60s and 70s was calling it.

I wonder where Huey Littleton (Pam Ellender's dad) got his information about this group being called skaters.

edit: I just read more at the UM site. People connected to the killings said that there was a party in the murder house, with people doing drugs, etc. But officials said that there was no sign that there had been any partying going on at the house. I would have to believe that doped up people doing LSD, snorting coke, drinking, with multiple people engaging in necrophelia are going to leave behind one heck of a mess.

They're not going to clean up discarded beer cans, wipe off the coke dust, clean the carpet and furniture from careless spills (cuz what do they care, it ain't their house). I just don't think they could have partied hard in the house and left behind no signs.
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Old 04-10-2009, 09:09 PM   #62
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I wonder where Huey Littleton (Pam Ellender's dad) got his information about this group being called skaters.

edit: I just read more at the UM site. People connected to the killings said that there was a party in the murder house, with people doing drugs, etc. But officials said that there was no sign that there had been any partying going on at the house. I would have to believe that doped up people doing LSD, snorting coke, drinking, with multiple people engaging in necrophelia are going to leave behind one heck of a mess.

They're not going to clean up discarded beer cans, wipe off the coke dust, clean the carpet and furniture from careless spills (cuz what do they care, it ain't their house). I just don't think they could have partied hard in the house and left behind no signs.
I just read the stuff that was linked and I would have to believe that there was no satanic stuff that went on. I agree that a bunch of LSD and coked up kids would leave a huge ass mess.

The dad seems intent on solving a crime that has been solved, yes?

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Old 04-12-2009, 07:56 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by VikingsGal
The dad seems intent on solving a crime that has been solved, yes?
It looks that way. Such intense grief must have made Mr. Littleton incapable of investigating any aspect of the case objectively.
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Old 04-13-2009, 02:09 PM   #64
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I agree. That whole story about a bunch of satanists having sex with the bodies and doing drugs at the house never made any sense. There's no way some group of druggie satanists would have had a party like that there and not left a huge mess. I feel bad for the woman's family because instead of finding what little closure they could in the culprits being brought to justice (and I say "little closure" because I do believe that when a loved one is murdered, there is no such thing as "true closure"), they are still spending so much time and energy trying to discover "what really happened," and imagining all these horrific scenarios. No doubt what happened to her was horrific, but all this satanist stuff and raping the bodies is ludicrous.
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Old 04-13-2009, 04:07 PM   #65
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I've done a lot of reading on the Ellender case as I have been haunted by it since I first saw the UM broadcast many years ago.

My gut feeling is that there is some element of truth to the multiple intruder/party scenario but on a much, much smaller scale. I think it's possible that Prudhomme and a few of his buddies hung around the house for a couple hours after the murders and did drugs, but I don't buy that there was some huge shindig. I think the stories about a Satanic ritual, necrophilia, and snuff videos are just that - stories.

The perpetrators of this crime were teenagers. Teens talk a lot. The truth of the matter became more clouded through each retelling of the story, and the list of conspirators grew each time someone claimed that they were in the house that night, or knew someone that was. The story become much more exaggerated and blown up into something way more than it ever was or possibly could have been. The lies and BS are so deep that trying to wade one's way through it all would be very daunting and probably impossible at this late date. Not to mention that the real perpetrator is dead.

I can't help but feel bad for Huey Littleton. He wanted to do right by his daughter and son in law, but I think he was blinded perhaps by his own anger over their deaths. He seemed willing to listen to anyone who claimed they had information and he took every word to the bank.
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Old 04-13-2009, 05:04 PM   #66
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Gary Grant Sr.

1. How could he not think of even ONE person that would have a vendetta against him. He was cop for a long period of time. He had to have made some enemies.

2. I tend to feel that Gary Grant may have been involved in something illegal and his son was killed as payback for a debt. I have often wondered who would take the chance to deface a police car with a message like that. Especially a cop who's right outside in a sandwich shop. For that matter who would risk a chance to kill a cop's son.

3. I hate to be stereotypical, but this case does take place in Atlantic City, NJ. Home to the Mafia.

I just felt that Gary Grant wasn;t telling the whole truth in his interview.
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Old 04-14-2009, 10:43 AM   #67
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The thing that bugged me about Gary Grant sr was that he said something like he couldn't think of anyone he'd ever arrested who would want to get revenge on him by killing his kid because no perp had ever told him specifically, "I'm going to get back at you for this."

If he was telling the truth, then he is one dumb cop. Not every vengeful perp is going to announce his intentions. Lots of people stew quietly in their anger and then take their revenge out on the person who they feel has wronged them. The victim may not even know how the vengeful person feels. Sometimes those types are striking out over an imaginary slight or are blowing a situation out of proportion.

Gary Grant sr, was a cop who arrested criminals. IMO, every one of those people is a potential suspect.

Outside of those possibilities, there are tons of others. Including a girlfriend who wants Gary to marry her, but he says that he's got a kid to think about so, no, they'll just keep seeing each other on thursdays... So she kills the kid to get rid of the obstacle to matrimony. That's happened quite a few times and one a few years ago was actually a cop in california.

There's also the chance that he was involved in something he shouldn't have been involved in. Unfortunately, that's very common. If that's the case, could be that he wrote on the cop car himself, to divert suspicion.
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Old 04-14-2009, 11:52 AM   #68
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The thing that bugged me about Gary Grant sr was that he said something like he couldn't think of anyone he'd ever arrested who would want to get revenge on him by killing his kid because no perp had ever told him specifically, "I'm going to get back at you for this."

If he was telling the truth, then he is one dumb cop. Not every vengeful perp is going to announce his intentions. Lots of people stew quietly in their anger and then take their revenge out on the person who they feel has wronged them. The victim may not even know how the vengeful person feels. Sometimes those types are striking out over an imaginary slight or are blowing a situation out of proportion.

Gary Grant sr, was a cop who arrested criminals. IMO, every one of those people is a potential suspect.
But, as you said, since there could be all sorts of people that might want revenge on him without him even knowing, how in the world is he supposed to name all those people? It's up to the officers investigating to look at all his cases to see if there's anyone there who could have been involved. That said, such a task would be an undertaking of massive proportions. The number of people he's given tickets to, arrested, responded to calls and not done what someone at the call wanted, etc. would be enormous, and all of them wouldn't even be documented. To kill the child of a cop because of something the cop did to you would be extremely unusual. I'm not sure if there is another case in history of such a thing, so I'm not convinced that the best use of police resources would be to try to track down every last person Gary, Sr. ever interacted with as a police officer.

Was there something about the writing that "only the killer would have known?" Otherwise, it seems more likely to me that Gary was the victim of a random perv, and the person who vandalized his car was just a sick prankster.
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Old 04-14-2009, 01:35 PM   #69
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But, as you said, since there could be all sorts of people that might want revenge on him without him even knowing, how in the world is he supposed to name all those people? It's up to the officers investigating to look at all his cases to see if there's anyone there who could have been involved. That said, such a task would be an undertaking of massive proportions. The number of people he's given tickets to, arrested, responded to calls and not done what someone at the call wanted, etc. would be enormous, and all of them wouldn't even be documented. To kill the child of a cop because of something the cop did to you would be extremely unusual. I'm not sure if there is another case in history of such a thing, so I'm not convinced that the best use of police resources would be to try to track down every last person Gary, Sr. ever interacted with as a police officer.
Cops know their beats better than their own homes. I;ve seen patrol officers who could tell you the name of every drug dealer within a city block. They could tell you the exact street name that an old mexican drug dealer got shot at in 1976. he would also know and remember a bad shooting, a time he took someones cash from them, a suspect who was more violent than usual.

There is a good reason why Gary would not mention that type person. if that person was another cop or an organized crime member, Gary would have incentive not to say that name. He still has to protect his wife.

It;s not impossible that Gary Grant Sr. was on the take or had abused his power at some point and that his sons murder was retribution.

Drug Dealers who are owned money tend to use killing of the family or child as their main incentive in getting back their money.

I could easily see a situation where Gary Grant Sr, was gambling, owed money to some organized crime members. Wasn't able to pay them back and they killed his child to encourage payment.

Quote:
Was there something about the writing that "only the killer would have known?" Otherwise, it seems more likely to me that Gary was the victim of a random perv, and the person who vandalized his car was just a sick prankster.
Did Gary Grant Jr, show signs of molestation? iIf a perv was tracking or stalking Gary Grant Jr, he would eventually realize that his father was a cop. I have to think that would be bad business for a pedo to attack cops child. It would bring the entire police force down on him and ruin his fun.

Gary's talk about the appointment that morning also hints that it wasn;t simply a random killer or pedophile. It hints that Gary Jr. may have met his killer previously.

The vandalized car was a cop car. With the cop who owned the car very close and nearby. It was a detailed message that took time. i don;t know of any vandals that would take that much of a risk, but to send a message. Organized crime, gangs and mafioso would take that chance.
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Old 04-14-2009, 01:38 PM   #70
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yuppielawyer,

I wasn't suggesting that they investigate every person the victim's father had ever arrested or interacted with in the course of his job.

What bothered me was what he said. It was something about the only reason he didn't suspect any of his prior arrestees who might have wanted to get revenge on him was because they didn't come right out and specifically announce what their plans were.

I thought it was weird that he would limit his list of suspects to only those who told him that they intended to get back at him and that he didn't seem to consider that it could be any one of those hundreds of people and maybe they just didn't verbalize their intentions.
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Old 04-14-2009, 01:54 PM   #71
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But, without having any reason to suspect any of his prior arestees, what else is he supposed to say? I suppose he could have said, "It could have been anyone, but I can't think of any of them that would do this."
Quote:
There is a good reason why Gary would not mention that type person. if that person was another cop or an organized crime member, Gary would have incentive not to say that name. He still has to protect his wife.

It;s not impossible that Gary Grant Sr. was on the take or had abused his power at some point and that his sons murder was retribution.

Drug Dealers who are owned money tend to use killing of the family or child as their main incentive in getting back their money.

I could easily see a situation where Gary Grant Sr, was gambling, owed money to some organized crime members. Wasn't able to pay them back and they killed his child to encourage payment.
There is absolutely not one shred of evidence (at least, none that we've been made aware of) that supports this theory at all. I think people should be more careful before hurling these types of accusations at someone whose child was brutally murdered. I also can't imagine that Gary Grant, Sr. would go on Unsolved Mysteries asking for information on who killed his son if he suspected that it was his mafia or drug associates that did it. If he suspects it's them, and he wants them caught, then he just has to tell the authorities. If he suspects it's them and he's covering for them, why would he want to go on TV to get publicity and try to get witnesses to bring forward evidence of who the killer was? It would seem that would only anger these folks more.
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Did Gary Grant Jr, show signs of molestation? iIf a perv was tracking or stalking Gary Grant Jr, he would eventually realize that his father was a cop. I have to think that would be bad business for a pedo to attack cops child. It would bring the entire police force down on him and ruin his fun.

Gary's talk about the appointment that morning also hints that it wasn;t simply a random killer or pedophile. It hints that Gary Jr. may have met his killer previously.
When I said he was likely the victim of a random perv, I didn't mean necessarily someone who was just driving down the street that day and decided to snatch Gary on impulse. He could have watched the street before and even talked to Gary. I just meant that this seems much more like the crime of perverted child killer than someone "sending a message" to a cop by killing his small child. Whether there were any "signs of molestation" on Gary is irrelevant, IMO. 99 times out of 100, fondling doesn't leave any physical evidence. If he made the kid give him oral sex, there could very well be no sign of molestation on the child. The evidence that points to a sexual predator is that it was a young child, murdered and dumped.
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The vandalized car was a cop car. With the cop who owned the car very close and nearby. It was a detailed message that took time. i don;t know of any vandals that would take that much of a risk, but to send a message. Organized crime, gangs and mafioso would take that chance.
Well, I represented a couple of teenagers (not mafiosos or gang members involved in killing children) who spray painted all sorts of nasty messages on a couple cop cars while the cops were inside a restaurant having their dinner break. It's a damn stupid thing to do; but, teenagers do stupid things all the time.
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Old 04-14-2009, 01:57 PM   #72
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I thought it was weird that he would limit his list of suspects to only those who told him that they intended to get back at him and that he didn't seem to consider that it could be any one of those hundreds of people and maybe they just didn't verbalize their intentions.
Verbally threatening a cop is a crime in and of itself, and as Miranda says could be used against you.

A threat would only occur if their was a strong belief that the police officer had wronged you.

Something like that would be something, that I think Gary Grant Jr. would not want known to the public.

If he committed police brutality against a suspect, i'm pretty sure he would not want that to be let out.

I don;t know if this is true, but I read somewhere that the police department that Gary Grant is part of is one of the most corrupt in the nation.
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Old 04-14-2009, 02:29 PM   #73
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There is absolutely not one shred of evidence (at least, none that we've been made aware of) that supports this theory at all. I think people should be more careful before hurling these types of accusations at someone whose child was brutally murdered. I also can't imagine that Gary Grant, Sr. would go on Unsolved Mysteries asking for information on who killed his son if he suspected that it was his mafia or drug associates that did it. If he suspects it's them, and he wants them caught, then he just has to tell the authorities. If he suspects it's them and he's covering for them, why would he want to go on TV to get publicity and try to get witnesses to bring forward evidence of who the killer was? It would seem that would only anger these folks more.
People on this board make accusations against people without evidence all the time on this board. This is a message board, not a court of law. This is like two people talking on a street corner about gossip.

1. Deputy Gibson didn;t have to go on unsolved Mysteries about his son, either. People could have gathered info on him as well and convicted him just as easily.

2.Gary could easily have went on Unsolved Mysteries to protect himself and his wife. if he;s shown on TV, there is less a likelihood that someone would off him or his wife in order to exact further retribution. In a way, appearing on Unsolved Mysteries is the best way to ensure your safety.

3.He could also use this opportunity to send a message to those people. "leave me alone, or people might start looking into people's affairs". Going on TV would be better than going to a police superior or internal affairs. It would be the perfect way to strike back at his son;s killers without explicitly saying who did it.

4.There's an active investigation already into his son;s death, which Gary has to provide info for in the first place. Even a mobster or corrupt cop would have to realize that Gary has to tell some of the truth and participate in helping the investigation to some degree. Appearing on Unsolved Mysteries or AMW would seem like standard procedure in solving the case It would look even more suspicious if Gary did nothing.

5. Gary Grant kind of explained away the case being the work of a mafioso or policeman, by saying he couldn't think of anybody that came to mind. I think the killers would be pleased that Gary pointed away from the crime being an act of retribution.


Quote:
Quote:
The vandalized car was a cop car. With the cop who owned the car very close and nearby. It was a detailed message that took time. i don;t know of any vandals that would take that much of a risk, but to send a message. Organized crime, gangs and mafioso would take that chance.
Well, I represented a couple of teenagers (not mafiosos or gang members involved in killing children) who spray painted all sorts of nasty messages on a couple cop cars while the cops were inside a restaurant having their dinner break. It's a damn stupid thing to do; but, teenagers do stupid things all the time.
But they were caught in the act, no? Were those kids on drugs? Was there message specify a certain action or incident.

The vandal on the police car in this case used chalk or a marker, not spray paint, no?


Quote:
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Did Gary Grant Jr, show signs of molestation? iIf a perv was tracking or stalking Gary Grant Jr, he would eventually realize that his father was a cop. I have to think that would be bad business for a pedo to attack cops child. It would bring the entire police force down on him and ruin his fun.

Gary's talk about the appointment that morning also hints that it wasn;t simply a random killer or pedophile. It hints that Gary Jr. may have met his killer previously.
When I said he was likely the victim of a random perv, I didn't mean necessarily someone who was just driving down the street that day and decided to snatch Gary on impulse. He could have watched the street before and even talked to Gary. I just meant that this seems much more like the crime of pervert99 times out of 100, fondling doesn't leave any physical evidence. ed child killer than someone "sending a message" to a cop by killing his small child. Whether there were any "signs of molestation" on Gary is irrelevant, IMO. If he made the kid give him oral sex, there could very well be no sign of molestation on the child. The evidence that points to a sexual predator is that it was a young child, murdered and dumped.
Then there would be semen in the mouth or stomach as well as pre-ejaculatory fluid or pubic hairs. There would also be signs of bruising potentially to the back of Gary's head. I doubt that Gary did this act willingly. And if he did, the killer could have easily walked away without killing Gary. The only reason to kill Gary is that the sexual molestation was something that could not be hidden. It was something that he could not walk away from.

It seems very lucky that this perv happened to catch Gary at first sight at the time that Gary left home early for his important meeting.

Quote:
Whether there were any "signs of molestation" on Gary is irrelevant, IMO.99 times out of 100, fondling doesn't leave any physical evidence.
If that's true, than essentially any murder of anyone could be a sex crime. Cindy James murder could be a sex crime. Eric Tamiyasu's death could be a sex crime as well. Heck the Zodiac Killer's crimes could all be sex crimes.

if all that happened to Gary sexually was fondling. This killer could easily have walked away.

If your in the business of killing a kid, you might as well get your money's worth and molest the child and fufill all your fantasies. Why do some half-hearted fondling. I mean unless your the kids father or uncle, you don;t have to hide anything.
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Old 04-14-2009, 02:43 PM   #74
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One of the things that we will never be privy to, is Gary Grant Sr. jacket.

I would be very interested to know if there were any complaints, reprimands, investigations or citations in that jacket.

Does anyone know if Gary Grant Sr. was part of any special units, such as narcotics, organized crime or vice?

If Gary Grant's jacket is dirty (pardon the pun ) we could have a reason and a suspect right there.

Heck maybe there's a pedophile who made a complaint in that jacket.

Another reason that Gary Sr, would show up on Unsolved Mysteries is that the case was very old at the time he showed up. The cops or mafioso that he was involved with might not be around at that moment. He would have more freedom to investigate the case now than he did years back.
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Old 04-14-2009, 05:19 PM   #75
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Whether there were any "signs of molestation" on Gary is irrelevant, IMO.99 times out of 100, fondling doesn't leave any physical evidence.
If that's true, than essentially any murder of anyone could be a sex crime. Cindy James murder could be a sex crime. Eric Tamiyasu's death could be a sex crime as well. Heck the Zodiac Killer's crimes could all be sex crimes.

if all that happened to Gary sexually was fondling. This killer could easily have walked away.

If your in the business of killing a kid, you might as well get your money's worth and molest the child and fufill all your fantasies. Why do some half-hearted fondling. I mean unless your the kids father or uncle, you don;t have to hide anything.
As to your first point, that is exactly right. Ask anyone in law enforcement, and they will tell you that not all sex crimes have physical evidence of a sexual assault. And if you think that kids aren't killed after being "half-heartedly fondled" (whatever that means) by a stranger who abducted him, then you are in massive denial. It absolutely happens. It could be that Gary threatened to tell; it could be that he started crying or screaming and the perp was afraid of being heard. This stuff happens frequently. And to dismiss such a scenario in favor of a completely unsupported and extremely unlikely scenario that makes Gary Grant, Sr. into a dirty cop, in bed with the mafia, or covering up their involvement in his child's brutal murder because he's afraid for his own life, is extremely far-fetched. And whether we are a court of law or not, in my opinion, throwing out such wild, baseless allegations against a named person is wrong. (And, as a lawyer, I'd just warn that even something you post on an internet forum can subject you to a defamation lawsuit.)
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