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Old 05-13-2013, 12:25 AM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MegtheEgg86
OT: Please pardon me for kind of injecting myself into y'all's conversation, but I also had to attest to how annoying Molly Ringwald's character was on the first season of FOL--it's been years, but I went through the whole thing when it was available on demand by my then-cable provider. I clearly remember her carrying around a guitar on a couple of episodes and singing some memorably irritating "protest songs." I think the sole act of writing out Molly and the other three girls saved that show from certain death.



I never knew what to make of that "they're gonna find him dead in two days and no one's going to know how he died" comment. If that's a true story--and I don't see any compelling reason to believe that she was making it up--how else could he have known all that information if he wasn't involved, or knew who was involved and the details concerning the event?

Second only to its refusal to accept help from Cleveland PD or Cuyahoga County SD and the lame attempt to even so much as build a workable case file on Kurt's death, I think this is the biggest mistake NHPD made: letting that dude go without further questioning.
Well lets delve into the angle regarding the "crazy from Detroit" a bit further. Apparently this individual was a homeless man who had been loitering around the record shop for weeks prior to Kurt's death rambling on how he had access to bodies that were flown into a local airport. Perhaps the most interesting part of his rant was that he bragged about removing shoes from these bodies.

Kurt Sova when he was found by police was found with a missing right shoe.

Now does this necessarily mean that the "crazy from Detroit" was responsible or had intimate knowledge of Kurt's death? Not necessarily. My feeling has always been if this individual had any knowledge of Kurt's death he gained it second hand thus the comment about how "nobody was going to know how Kurt died". But I think even that scenario is a stretch.

Thinking back though, someone on these forums once suggested a scenario where Kurt could've left the party with this guy and basically spent the next several days on a bit of a bender with him ultimately resulting in his death. The "crazy from Detroit" not knowing what else to do with the body returns it to the duplex or perhaps dumps it in the ravine himself.

To me that scenario always seemed a bit too convoluted and far fetched to be true but others might feel differently.

For me the biggest sticking point in this entire case has always been the first reaction from Susan when asked by Dorothy Sova if Kurt had attended a party at her duplex on the night he disappeared. Her first reaction was to lie which to me is not a normal reaction when a parent approaches you and asks if you have any information regarding their missing child. Most people in that situation would be more than willing to help in any way they could. That being said, the only reason someone would lie in that situation would be if they were somehow either responsible for the person in question going missing or had intimate knowledge regarding what happened to the person in question. To me the fact that Susan's first response to Dorothy Sova was to tell her a boldface lie speaks volumes about what happened in this case.

PS: Regarding FOL: Some of the girls who were cut were actually pretty decent. One of the problems with the first season of FOL was that it was a strike shortened season where they were not allotted a full season to develop characters and storylines. I've always felt that if not for the strike we may have seen a lot more positives come from S1 of FOL then we actually did.
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Old 05-13-2013, 01:15 AM   #47
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Eh, I don't know. Admittedly, what Susan said was untrue, but her biggest crime may have been just trying to cover up the underage drinking and possible drug use at the party. She might not have wanted to be traced back to that.

We can't even be certain that Susan was lying. Did she know Kurt? As I've been hinting at, parties, often times, the person hosting the party doesn't necessarily know everyone there. Sometimes, a host will invite friends, who bring friends of their own, and so on. That's how parties get out of control. It was stated by several people I think, that this wasn't Kurt's regular circle of friends, so perhaps Susan just didn't know who Kurt was.
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Old 05-13-2013, 07:48 AM   #48
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"In the other Kurt Sova thread, I read that Samuel Caroll stated he believed one possibility was that Kurt got picked up by someone during the moments he was gone upstairs to get the jacket. I think that's entirely possible: perhaps the perp (if Kurt was killed) wasn't at the party per se, but stopped by, offered Kurt a ride home or whatever, and Kurt was too out of it to make a good judgement and accepted. I get bad feelings off these gang members, as well as "The Crazy from Detroit." It's another reason why I can't 100% believe someone at the party was responsible. Parties tend to have people coming and going all the time, so it's not out of the question by a long shot."


wiseguy, Samuel Carroll was saying anything to get away from the truth that Kurt went into a coma and died at the duplex, IMO.
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Old 05-13-2013, 03:23 PM   #49
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Of all the lies and deception in this case, the one I outright think did not happen is the jacket story. No one else even backs him up on that story that we know of, he was most likely hiding what was going on at the party.
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Old 05-14-2013, 12:01 AM   #50
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Of all the lies and deception in this case, the one I outright think did not happen is the jacket story. No one else even backs him up on that story that we know of, he was most likely hiding what was going on at the party.
The UM segment depicted that Samuel and Kurt were away from the rest of the partiers when Samuel noticed Kurt passed out and took him outside for fresh air. Given that it's not uncommon for parties to be large, chaotic events, it doesn't strike me as immediately suspicious that nobody backs up the story about the jacket.
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Old 05-14-2013, 03:27 AM   #51
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Quote:
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The UM segment depicted that Samuel and Kurt were away from the rest of the partiers when Samuel noticed Kurt passed out and took him outside for fresh air. Given that it's not uncommon for parties to be large, chaotic events, it doesn't strike me as immediately suspicious that nobody backs up the story about the jacket.

There's no reason to believe him.

Two guys (it's possible one of them could have been Samuel himself) were seen carrying Kurt's body to the ravine by Angeline Reddicks and her husband, according to that 1991 Cleveland newspaper article. Kurt didn't wander off and die there (jacket story is BS). He died and was put there.
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Old 05-14-2013, 07:44 AM   #52
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There's no reason to believe him.

Two guys (it's possible one of them could have been Samuel himself) were seen carrying Kurt's body to the ravine by Angeline Reddicks and her husband, according to that 1991 Cleveland newspaper article. Kurt didn't wander off and die there (jacket story is BS). He died and was put there.
I can't think of a reason why we should immediately dismiss Samuel's statement. I think we've done a pretty good job on this forum of mentioning how unreliable eyewitness accounts are.

I'm not saying that didn't happen, but it's not fact.
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Old 05-14-2013, 08:40 AM   #53
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I can't think of a reason why we should immediately dismiss Samuel's statement. I think we've done a pretty good job on this forum of mentioning how unreliable eyewitness accounts are.

I'm not saying that didn't happen, but it's not fact.

The lady said she saw them carrying a body there (in the afternoon or evening/can't remember what time of day exactly) just a matter of days before Halloween. She lived in a house on a street where her backyard faces that ravine: how likely is it that it could have been someone else besides Kurt Sova being carried there in that time frame and at that location? It's not likely at all, it had to have been Kurt.
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Old 05-14-2013, 09:57 AM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve W.
The lady said she saw them carrying a body there (in the afternoon or evening/can't remember what time of day exactly) just a matter of days before Halloween. She lived in a house on a street where her backyard faces that ravine: how likely is it that it could have been someone else besides Kurt Sova being carried there in that time frame and at that location? It's not likely at all, it had to have been Kurt.
The witness also said the boy they were carrying was missing a shoe. I know witnesses on UM have a bit of a track record as being not credible but just as we don't want to paint them with the brush of being credible, we shouldn't paint them with the brush of being not credible.

The point being that although my personal feeling is I have a pretty good gauge on what happened to Kurt Sova, we'll probably never know for certain barring a confession from one of the parties involved in his disappearance and death.
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Old 05-14-2013, 01:36 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by DarkDante
The witness also said the boy they were carrying was missing a shoe. I know witnesses on UM have a bit of a track record as being not credible but just as we don't want to paint them with the brush of being credible, we shouldn't paint them with the brush of being not credible.

The point being that although my personal feeling is I have a pretty good gauge on what happened to Kurt Sova, we'll probably never know for certain barring a confession from one of the parties involved in his disappearance and death.

agreed

Assuming that Samuel Carroll, Clayton Sams, or Debbie Sams (she could obviously have a different last name now) (the Sams' lived in the duplex at the time of that party) are still alive, they are the people we know of that could stop lying and tell the truth about what really happened to Kurt.
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Old 05-15-2013, 01:53 AM   #56
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this case is so bizarre to me.. with all these "key" players from the UM segment, someone has got to know what happened to kurt... i wish they were more remorseful and would just come forward..
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Old 05-15-2013, 01:20 PM   #57
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Did anyone get the vibe the people at that party were not in the same social class as Kurt this could be why no one came foward in all of these years. They seem like blue collar working class, while Kurt and his family may of been lower middle class.
It's possible although I think the line you are trying to draw is a bit of a stretch. I think a far more likely scenario is that as Dorothy Sova mentioned that most of the individuals at the party didn't know Kurt from a hole in the wall and if he did end up overdosing in their presence the fact that they had no connection to him socially may have contributed to them not attending to him the best they could and still keeping quiet about what happened to him to this day.
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Old 05-15-2013, 02:05 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spark Of Spirit
Of all the lies and deception in this case, the one I outright think did not happen is the jacket story. No one else even backs him up on that story that we know of, he was most likely hiding what was going on at the party.
I always dismissed the jacket story because of the timing. How long could it possibly take to go upstairs, get the jacket and come outside again? A minute? Two minutes? Samuel himself told Dorothy that it took him about a minute to get back outside with the jacket, at which point he discovered Kurt was gone.

A person who is so drunk that they can barely stand on their feet, leaning against a fence, is not going to be able to leave that property under their own power in 1-2 minutes. Could a car have driven up during that 1-2 minutes, somehow saw and recognized Kurt in the dark, picked him up and driven off? Maybe but highly, highly, highly unlikely. A person would have to have insanely perfect timing to even remotely pull that off.

That fence is still outside the house today.



Nothing about the jacket story added up for me. That's why I always thought Samuel was lying.
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Old 05-15-2013, 07:28 PM   #59
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Quote:
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I take it all the former residents in the complex have since moved years ago and sometime after Sova went missing and thern found dead?

It's pretty likely, since it's been 31 and a half years since this happened and it likely happened at the duplex (a place that's for rent). There's probably been hundreds of people that have lived there since then and a lot of them probably don't even know what likely happened there. I wouldn't want to go down in that basement.
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Old 05-16-2013, 04:57 AM   #60
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I agree with the sentiments about the basements scenes being creepy. Towards the end of the segment, there was one where the actor playing Kurt was lying in the bed, tossing and turning and the light bulb was rocking back and forth. Also, in the scene where Kurt's dad goes down in the basement, I was so bracing myself for somebody to come up from behind and whack him on the head.

I still can't dismiss the jacket story though. It was dark when this happened, so if Samuel really did find that Kurt was gone when he came back down with the jacket, he probably didn't want to try and find him in the dark. He also probably figured the situation wasn't that serious at that point -- it as just another kid who got drunk. As I said, people come and go from parties all the time. It's not like Kurt getting drunk would have garnered that much attention.

There are just too many unknowns in this case for me to be comfortable in solely blaming the people at the party. The Crazy from Detroit, the gangbangers, and whoever killed Eugene Kvet -- if his death was homicide.

I don't think it can even be definitively proved that anyone at the party committed a crime in relation to Kurt. Perhaps he picked up the alcohol beforehand. I'm doubting anyone forced him to drink.
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