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Old 02-12-2018, 08:01 PM   #106
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I don't know how much of a cover up by the hands of law enforcement would benefit them in this case. They suspected accident, and ruled it as such. The coroner, after doing the autopsy, changed it to suicide because of the close contact wound to his temple. What is law enforcement supposed to do at that point? Challenge the coroner?
There has been some mention of this being a small town and the Sheriff's department likely being a "good ole boy" type of network. Now, this is where I could totally see this angle working toward the ultimate ruling in this case.

The Sheriff may have thought accident at first, but the coroner (who ultimately has more expertise) said suicide. So, that becomes the answer. The Sheriff and coroner were part of the network, likely had a long history together, and anticipated future interactions. No way is the Sheriff not going to defer to the coroner on this one. And no way is he going to question it after the fact.

Those suspecting conspiracy might have just been picking up on this undertone.
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Old 02-12-2018, 08:17 PM   #107
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Those suspecting conspiracy might have just been picking up on this undertone.
Eh, I don't know.

How many other segments did coroner's change rulings from murder/suicide to "undetermined" to still have law enforcement officials be adamant about one or the other? I get the "good ole boy" vibe from this segment. But I don't see what is particularly controversial about accepting a coroner's version due to a close contact wound base off of a previously asserted accidental death theory. This is the total opposite of a murder/suicide typical UM segment. It wasn't until the cause of death was changed to suicide that the murder undertones began being put forward by Norman's parents. Ultimately I think had the parents pushed to have his death changed back to an accident they would have been more successful in getting his death changed from suicide to at the very least "undetermined".
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Old 02-12-2018, 08:34 PM   #108
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Random but it's interesting going back and looking at this earlier pages of this thread. You have a good 5 solid pages of people saying oh yeah it was definitely murder, the cops were corrupt, yada yada. Now we have people actually saying it might have been suicide. Just interesting and makes one wonder why the tides turn. Are we becoming more cynical?
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Old 02-13-2018, 06:35 AM   #109
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Are we becoming more cynical?
I definitely am.

What's funny is that I went back and watched the Norman Ladner segment yesterday, and was rolling my eyes at some of the things in the segment (home made radio device just so happened to be left behind by Norman's killers for over 3 weeks, the claim that a stranger basically threatened his parents to stop digging into his death) that I used to believe without a second thought. Now when I am rewatching the segments on Amazon I always ask myself, if there was a current UM, would these segments even get produced and made?
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Old 02-13-2018, 10:29 AM   #110
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There has been some mention of this being a small town and the Sheriff's department likely being a "good ole boy" type of network. Now, this is where I could totally see this angle working toward the ultimate ruling in this case.

The Sheriff may have thought accident at first, but the coroner (who ultimately has more expertise) said suicide. So, that becomes the answer. The Sheriff and coroner were part of the network, likely had a long history together, and anticipated future interactions. No way is the Sheriff not going to defer to the coroner on this one. And no way is he going to question it after the fact.

Those suspecting conspiracy might have just been picking up on this undertone.
You nailed it for me right there.



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Are we becoming more cynical?
I certainly am. I was halfway ready to write this off as another case of distraught parents not wanting to believe what the authorities told them.

(and now I'll also wonder what might've been left out of other UM segments.....)
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Old 04-24-2019, 08:43 AM   #111
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Now that Stack episodes are [FINALLY!!!!!] allowed on YouTube, I've noticed each episode getting close to 100 comments. Sometimes more.

A poster named Lumoskillercrispin posted this...

Quote:
I am from Picayune, Mississippi. My mother went to school with Norman. You can ask every body in my town that knows about Norman's death and the only people that will say it was suicide is anyone that was on good terms with Sheriff Lumpkin. Everyone else has no doubt it was a murder, and to this day so many have no doubt that Sheriff Lumpkin, knew more than he let on. They only kind of sheriff that would refuse to do an investigate to bring justice to an innocent person.....is a sheriff that is hiding something. Also this: Norman's wallet was empty when they found his body but... Not long after Norman's death his ID was found in New York. It wasn't suicide, plan and simple.
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Old 04-29-2019, 08:33 AM   #112
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Lumpkin was as corrupt as could be. His matter of fact attitude about EVERYTHING was disturbing as hell. If that rat were still alive he'd probably claim that Norman mailed his license to NY and paid someone to drop it somewhere. BTW, does anyone know where in NY it was found? Side of the road, that kind of thing?
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Old 09-29-2019, 11:07 PM   #113
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So I watched this one again today and paused it so that I could read the first page of the coroner's report. The round entered the right side of Norman's skull and exited out the left. Blood spatter was also noted on his left hand. If Norman was right-handed, his left hand would've likely steadied the barrel of the weapon if he held the end of it to the right side of his head (and it was very near his head, as the report also mentioned powder burns in that location).

It kind of seems like a suicide to me, based on just that information alone. It might seem like an odd way to orient a firearm in a suicide, but I assure you--people indeed do stranger things in such attempts.

But then there's no neat explanation for the blunt wound to his head. I just don't see how it could have been an accident given that pattern of injury, as the end of the barrel would've had to have been a couple of inches or less away from the side of his head at the time of discharge. It leads me to conclude it had to have been either suicide or homicide, but neither ultimately seems more likely than the other, given what we know. The segment may have attempted to wrap it up neatly, but it really IS one of the more perplexing cases featured on the show when you cut past the UM treatment.
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Old 09-30-2019, 06:26 AM   #114
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So I watched this one again today and paused it so that I could read the first page of the coroner's report. The round entered the right side of Norman's skull and exited out the left. Blood spatter was also noted on his left hand. If Norman was right-handed, his left hand would've likely steadied the barrel of the weapon if he held the end of it to the right side of his head (and it was very near his head, as the report also mentioned powder burns in that location).

It kind of seems like a suicide to me, based on just that information alone. It might seem like an odd way to orient a firearm in a suicide, but I assure you--people indeed do stranger things in such attempts.

But then there's no neat explanation for the blunt wound to his head. I just don't see how it could have been an accident given that pattern of injury, as the end of the barrel would've had to have been a couple of inches or less away from the side of his head at the time of discharge. It leads me to conclude it had to have been either suicide or homicide, but neither ultimately seems more likely than the other, given what we know. The segment may have attempted to wrap it up neatly, but it really IS one of the more perplexing cases featured on the show when you cut past the UM treatment.
Interesting...

Did it say where the blunt wound to his head was located? Could it have happened from falling over after shooting himself?
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Old 09-30-2019, 08:40 AM   #115
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The wound was on the very peak or crown of his head. So most likely hit on the top of the head from behind then shot as he lay on the ground.
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Old 09-30-2019, 08:49 AM   #116
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Interesting...

Did it say where the blunt wound to his head was located? Could it have happened from falling over after shooting himself?
It was noted as being on the vertex--which indeed is the 'crown' or 'peak' of the head, as Norman's father put it.

That's why I have trouble with it. I agree with the Ladners that the likelihood of Norman sustaining the head wound from a fall after shooting himself seems unlikely. However, the wound (a laceration and contusion of the scalp) is noted in the report as 'recent'. I would imagine that term probably has a generally, although not universally accepted definition, and perhaps 'recent' could've been within the past 24 to 48 hours, maybe even earlier. With Norman being an active outdoorsman, there could be any number of reasons why he had that injury, and it may be completely unrelated to the gunshot wound.
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Old 09-30-2019, 11:30 AM   #117
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Lumpkin was as corrupt as could be. His matter of fact attitude about EVERYTHING was disturbing as hell. If that rat were still alive he'd probably claim that Norman mailed his license to NY and paid someone to drop it somewhere. BTW, does anyone know where in NY it was found? Side of the road, that kind of thing?
As corrupt as he could've been, what motive could Lumpkin have possibly had for covering this up or wanting it to be covered up??

Being matter-of-fact about everything, to me, seems to fit right it with an 'Occam's Razor' sort of explanation (i.e. he fell out of the tree and the gun accidentally went off, killing him)
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Old 09-30-2019, 12:26 PM   #118
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As corrupt as he could've been, what motive could Lumpkin have possibly had for covering this up or wanting it to be covered up??

Being matter-of-fact about everything, to me, seems to fit right it with an 'Occam's Razor' sort of explanation (i.e. he fell out of the tree and the gun accidentally went off, killing him)
Occam's razor will have a conniption fit explaining Ladner's license ending up in New York. Sometimes IT IS the more sinister scenario.............
And as far as motive, very simple. Local authorities take their cut of the action in exchange for protection from the law.........
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Old 09-30-2019, 09:52 PM   #119
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Occam's razor will have a conniption fit explaining Ladner's license ending up in New York. Sometimes IT IS the more sinister scenario.............
And as far as motive, very simple. Local authorities take their cut of the action in exchange for protection from the law.........
Was the license-in-New-York thing ever actually verified? The only source providing that information was a one-post wonder type on this board who claimed to have known Ladner. Certainly doesn't mean he or she is wrong, but personally I'm skeptical of it.
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Old 09-30-2019, 10:47 PM   #120
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Was the license-in-New-York thing ever actually verified? The only source providing that information was a one-post wonder type on this board who claimed to have known Ladner. Certainly doesn't mean he or she is wrong, but personally I'm skeptical of it.
I donít know if this specific detail was confirmed. However, I believe that Stack said on the segment that Norman had a few hundred dollars in his possession that was not recovered. Assuming the money was in his wallet, itís obvious someone pilfered the walletís contents and possibly his drivers license was taken too. It could have been someone with the EMS crew or at the medical examinerís office with sticky fingers.
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