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Old 11-30-2010, 11:19 AM   #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cocytus
I suppose it was easier for him to try and tee off on me, then it was to actually present theories or research to try and solve this.

Since I started posting this on here last week, I managed to find several sources of information pertaining to this case. However, the majority of them are either cut and paste versions from the Charleyproject website or they are from the local area paper, but they appear to have been altered from the original text.

The police had a suspect in 1995; a man who'd been arrested for rape who matched the description of a man seen urinating in public near where Ms. Ray vanished. However, he was not tried as the victim was unable to correctly identify him before a trial date was set.

It's very odd that:

1) Ms. Ray was shown wearing flip-flops in the re-creation. How was it possible that neither or both of the flip-flops were found after she was abducted? The killer took the time to restrain Ms. Ray AND clean up after himself?

2) If Ms. Ray's possible killer wasn't staying at any of the hotels/motels on the strip, where was he staying? Was he a local? And if so, was the question asked by the police I wonder.

3) Clearly Ms. Ray's assailant must have been driving some type of vehicle. You have to ask, did any of the guests either see or hear the vehicle leaving the area at or around the time that this occurred?

4) Apparently Ms. Ray's abductor was skilled enough to have taken her early in the morning and not have left many if any clues as to his identity. I've always felt that odd that an individual that skilled would be walking along at 5 AM in the morning and beachfront tourist area.

I wonder if other women were not approached by this man either that night or on nights prior to Ms. Ray's disappearance. And if so, were they questioned by the police?

5) It's actually somewhat disheartening that the city of Panama City Beach, Florida hasn't really stepped up to the plate in an attempt to have this murder solved. I realize that it's been 20 years, but the unsolved disappearance of a female tourist is hardly "good for business", is it?

Perhaps if they did, or do, offer a substantial reward for information someone will come forward even after all this time.
Yea, I wasn't laughing at you, I just thought it was funny.

Anyway, the two theories that I lean toward are:

1. Your drug buying theory, which I think is just as good as any other theory, but it makes sense.

2. She was abducted by someone pretending to be the manager of the hotel. If you believe the poster "BrandiRay" who claims to be PJR's daughter and was in the car when the abduction occurred, then it was raining heavily when they arrived and the manager of the Wilhite was supposed to leave am key in the mailbox.

I think what could have happened was she went to the mailbox hoping to find a key but did not see it. She then looked to see if anyone (possibly the manager) was walking around and could obtain the key. She probably saw the abductor and asked "have you seen the manager?" or "are you the manager?" Maybe this guy just said yes but that his keys to his office were in his car and she followed him and once they were at the car, he abducted her.

Also on the charley project, it says there was a suspect of interest in 2000 but no arrests were made because he could not conclusively be tied to PJR's disappearance/murder. "BrandiRay" stated that her family has a suspect in mind who is already in prison for several heinous crimes. IMO, as I stated in previous posts, the first name that pops out at me for a crime against a woman in Florida, is Oba Chandler. I would not rule him out in any rape/murder in Florida.
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Old 11-30-2010, 11:48 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by Hambone2421

2. She was abducted by someone pretending to be the manager of the hotel. If you believe the poster "BrandiRay" who claims to be PJR's daughter and was in the car when the abduction occurred, then it was raining heavily when they arrived and the manager of the Wilhite was supposed to leave am key in the mailbox.

I think what could have happened was she went to the mailbox hoping to find a key but did not see it. She then looked to see if anyone (possibly the manager) was walking around and could obtain the key. She probably saw the abductor and asked "have you seen the manager?" or "are you the manager?" Maybe this guy just said yes but that his keys to his office were in his car and she followed him and once they were at the car, he abducted her.

I too think this is exactly what happened.
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Old 11-30-2010, 12:15 PM   #93
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IMO, as I stated in previous posts, the first name that pops out at me for a crime against a woman in Florida, is Oba Chandler. I would not rule him out in any rape/murder in Florida.
Agreed. This guy preyed on women, vacationing alone in the Florida area. Chandler's whereabouts at the time of Ray's disappearance should be looked into further.
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Old 11-30-2010, 03:58 PM   #94
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Again, I'm not trying to blame the victim. But not looking at all potential aspects of this crime is just liking saying that you don't want to solve it.
But thats not what you're doing. All you've done is stated that her actions seem bizarre to you, accused the woman of being a negligent mother and drug addict with no actual evidence of such, because you think what she did was odd. You continualy use quotation marks to imply sinister motives to her "vacation" and openly accused the police department of covering up the mistakes you are positive the patrolling officer made.

Look at all the potential aspects of a crime but drug addiction has never been an aspect of this crime. There's no public evidence to support she had a drug problem. Why is that? I would assume its because that was looked into immediately by LE and there was nowhere to go with it. However because you think its not normal to do what Pamela June Ray did leading up to her kidnapping you make the wild assertion that its evidence of a drug addict's behavior. Here's a bit of why I think you're so wrong on this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by cocytus
Looking for drugs at 5am in the morning is also VERY common .
Thats just simply not true. Like not treu at all. TRY looking for drugs that early in the morning. Have you ever been drug shopping at 5 am? How do you know its "VERY common"?. You go over to a drug dealer's house at 5 in the morning trying to cop and he'll call the cops on you himself. Your whole drug addled search for drugs theory is unrealistic. A drug addict doesn't strike out with their children on a trip just figuring to find some drugs in a seedy part of town at 5 am...just hoping and figuring she'll find someone she can walk up to and say "Excuse me buddy, got any drugs I may buy?" . Drug addicts don't take trips without knowing they have stuff with them. They would have their drugs with them before they left, scored in their hometown by their regular dealer.

I think the drug addled, drug seeking behavior theory is hogwash and its not just because I think you're insulting the family or the woman's memory. I'm sure the family has heard every theory under the sun and what with the fraud charges they're used to whispers and gossip and "theories". I only typed that above because I think you've made some wildly innacurate statements and are pulling things out of nowhere. It wouldn't be so bad but you then accuse others of not understanding what you type just because what you're saying makes no logical sense, it has absolutely ZERO tangible evidence to back it up, and well frankly your condescending tone and little insulting shots annoy me.

Comments like this one:

Quote:
Originally Posted by cocytus
...I'm sure that he was questioned by his superiors about the time period in question and if there were any "holes" in his story that they were "filled in" either by him or by his superiors.
...are frustrating. What evidence do you have of malfeasance by LE? What evidence do you have that the reporting officer needed to be covered for? How would you go about getting such evidence?

Simply spouting off wild ideas with no evidence doesn't make you an investigator or mean you're doing even one thing to help solve the mystery of this woman's disappearance. I'm with TheCars1986, there's as much evidence of alien abduction as there is of the drug angle you've decided must be discussed lest we be accused of not being serious.
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Old 11-30-2010, 04:14 PM   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Corky Kneivel
Simply spouting off wild ideas with no evidence doesn't make you an investigator or mean you're doing even one thing to help solve the mystery of this woman's disappearance. I'm with TheCars1986, there's as much evidence of alien abduction as there is of the drug angle you've decided must be discussed lest we be accused of not being serious.
Corky! Long time, no see.

I see what you mean with cocytus but I can also see what he was originally trying to do (before it got out of hand with TheCars). I think the drug seeking angle is just as logical as anything else. The reason I think that is because there is absolutely no shred of evidence in this case. She simply disappeared without a trace. Most of that is due to to the heavy rain that probably washed away any DNA or clothing. Could she have been abducted while trying to score drugs? Yes. Is there evidence to prove this? No.

This theory had crossed my mind originally but I did not want to say anything due to tarnishing PJR's reputation or memory of her by her family.

Having said all of that, I doubt she was buying drugs or looking for drugs.
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Old 11-30-2010, 04:55 PM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Corky Kneivel
But thats not what you're doing. All you've done is stated that her actions seem bizarre to you, accused the woman of being a negligent mother and drug addict with no actual evidence of such, because you think what she did was odd. You continualy use quotation marks to imply sinister motives to her "vacation" and openly accused the police department of covering up the mistakes you are positive the patrolling officer made.

Look at all the potential aspects of a crime but drug addiction has never been an aspect of this crime. There's no public evidence to support she had a drug problem. Why is that? I would assume its because that was looked into immediately by LE and there was nowhere to go with it. However because you think its not normal to do what Pamela June Ray did leading up to her kidnapping you make the wild assertion that its evidence of a drug addict's behavior. Here's a bit of why I think you're so wrong on this:



Thats just simply not true. Like not treu at all. TRY looking for drugs that early in the morning. Have you ever been drug shopping at 5 am? How do you know its "VERY common"?. You go over to a drug dealer's house at 5 in the morning trying to cop and he'll call the cops on you himself. Your whole drug addled search for drugs theory is unrealistic. A drug addict doesn't strike out with their children on a trip just figuring to find some drugs in a seedy part of town at 5 am...just hoping and figuring she'll find someone she can walk up to and say "Excuse me buddy, got any drugs I may buy?" . Drug addicts don't take trips without knowing they have stuff with them. They would have their drugs with them before they left, scored in their hometown by their regular dealer.

I think the drug addled, drug seeking behavior theory is hogwash and its not just because I think you're insulting the family or the woman's memory. I'm sure the family has heard every theory under the sun and what with the fraud charges they're used to whispers and gossip and "theories". I only typed that above because I think you've made some wildly innacurate statements and are pulling things out of nowhere. It wouldn't be so bad but you then accuse others of not understanding what you type just because what you're saying makes no logical sense, it has absolutely ZERO tangible evidence to back it up, and well frankly your condescending tone and little insulting shots annoy me.

Comments like this one:



...are frustrating. What evidence do you have of malfeasance by LE? What evidence do you have that the reporting officer needed to be covered for? How would you go about getting such evidence?

Simply spouting off wild ideas with no evidence doesn't make you an investigator or mean you're doing even one thing to help solve the mystery of this woman's disappearance. I'm with TheCars1986, there's as much evidence of alien abduction as there is of the drug angle you've decided must be discussed lest we be accused of not being serious.
Well said. I've never thought the drug angle was farfetched, it's just there's absolutely no evidence to support this. After the fourth post or so, his condescending posts started to get on my nerves hence my "droll" response.

In response to Hambone, it's not trashing someone's personality if you are purely speculating as to what she was doing. It's just I don't see any signs that point to that. BTW Hambone, do we know where Oba Chandler was around the time PJR disappeared?
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Old 11-30-2010, 05:19 PM   #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Corky Kneivel
But thats not what you're doing. All you've done is stated that her actions seem bizarre to you, accused the woman of being a negligent mother and drug addict with no actual evidence of such, because you think what she did was odd. You continualy use quotation marks to imply sinister motives to her "vacation" and openly accused the police department of covering up the mistakes you are positive the patrolling officer made.

Look at all the potential aspects of a crime but drug addiction has never been an aspect of this crime. There's no public evidence to support she had a drug problem. Why is that? I would assume its because that was looked into immediately by LE and there was nowhere to go with it. However because you think its not normal to do what Pamela June Ray did leading up to her kidnapping you make the wild assertion that its evidence of a drug addict's behavior. Here's a bit of why I think you're so wrong on this:



Thats just simply not true. Like not treu at all. TRY looking for drugs that early in the morning. Have you ever been drug shopping at 5 am? How do you know its "VERY common"?. You go over to a drug dealer's house at 5 in the morning trying to cop and he'll call the cops on you himself. Your whole drug addled search for drugs theory is unrealistic. A drug addict doesn't strike out with their children on a trip just figuring to find some drugs in a seedy part of town at 5 am...just hoping and figuring she'll find someone she can walk up to and say "Excuse me buddy, got any drugs I may buy?" . Drug addicts don't take trips without knowing they have stuff with them. They would have their drugs with them before they left, scored in their hometown by their regular dealer.

I think the drug addled, drug seeking behavior theory is hogwash and its not just because I think you're insulting the family or the woman's memory. I'm sure the family has heard every theory under the sun and what with the fraud charges they're used to whispers and gossip and "theories". I only typed that above because I think you've made some wildly innacurate statements and are pulling things out of nowhere. It wouldn't be so bad but you then accuse others of not understanding what you type just because what you're saying makes no logical sense, it has absolutely ZERO tangible evidence to back it up, and well frankly your condescending tone and little insulting shots annoy me.

Comments like this one:



...are frustrating. What evidence do you have of malfeasance by LE? What evidence do you have that the reporting officer needed to be covered for? How would you go about getting such evidence?

Simply spouting off wild ideas with no evidence doesn't make you an investigator or mean you're doing even one thing to help solve the mystery of this woman's disappearance. I'm with TheCars1986, there's as much evidence of alien abduction as there is of the drug angle you've decided must be discussed lest we be accused of not being serious.
1) I don't know what type of mother Ms. Ray was/is. I do know that even in the early 1990s, it was a very poor idea to travel at night alone with children. I also know that it would have been prudent of her to have had a motel room well in advance of her arrival.

I do know that there are multiple hotels/motels in the Panama City Beach area. Some are more expensive than the others, but most people needing a room at 4 to 5 AM in the morning, aren't going to be that choosy. Especially with young children.

I do think, that it is very bizarre behavior (if it occurred) to wander on foot between several motels early in the morning before day when those motels would be visibly closed or be displaying "No Vacancy" signs.An unimpaired adult more likely than not, would have waited in the vehicle until daylight or until someone came along and opened the office.or perhaps traveled to the truck stop or all-night restaurant and waited there.

if Ms. Ray was using drugs ( and there is no evidence that this was the case) it could explain her bad judgment and the poor decision-making skills exhibited in this case. Again since I don't know her and sadly,probably never will never will, there probably never will be an answer to this.

2) I actually wouldn't go out and shop for drugs at five o'clock in the morning. When I used to get high, I knew exactly where to go. But that was a long time ago and I was never an addict.

3) And I don't know that there was any law enforcement malfeasance in this. I do know that in a town the size of Panama City Beach given the limited number of murders that occur there in a year ( and considering that most of those are either friends or family related) that this murder should have been solved much sooner than it has been.
it's not as if the Panama City Beach Police Department has the dozens or hundreds of murders of a larger city nor is it been claimed that one or more serial murderers were operating in the area (Panama City Beach Florida area at that time).

4)When or if you try to investigate something, you leave your personal discomfort out of the equation. You seem to be personally discomforted by the fact that this adult woman may have been using drugs (or alcohol) and may have disappeared due to the diminished capacity and inebriated or intoxicated state would create. How would your personal discomfort assist in solve this case?

I don't know the quality of the Panama City Beach Police Department. I don't know if they require their officers to be professionally trained in the POST program; I don't know if they even required their officers to be high school graduates.
I do know that if they were somehow overwhelmed by this case, calling it an outside agency might've provided better results than have seem to occurred here.

Frankly, I don't see criticizing the police as being a bad thing. If any level of effort is seen to be the acceptable from the police, then you really aren't making an effort to solve the problems of criminal activity in your area, are you?

All whole series of events had to occur and had to not have occurred, that resulted in Ms. Ray's disappearance. By not questioning every aspect of their disappearance including asking questions that are uncomfortable, seem to be mean-spirited or unpleasant to consider, then people are really doing a disservice to to Ms. Ray and to her family, aren't they?
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Old 11-30-2010, 05:23 PM   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheCars1986
In response to Hambone, it's not trashing someone's personality if you are purely speculating as to what she was doing. It's just I don't see any signs that point to that. BTW Hambone, do we know where Oba Chandler was around the time PJR disappeared?
No I agree. I don't think you were trashing anyone's character or personality. I was saying that I didn't bring up the drug angle when it first crossed my mind because I didn't want to offend the family or anyone else.

As for Oba Chandler. No we do not know his whereabouts but he was a handyman type and tended to travel alot for "business". He could have been anywhere at that time and seeing as how Panama City Beach is in his home state, it wouldn't surprise me if it was him. Some have even likened him to the Blind River killings although that does not seem like his MO.
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Old 11-30-2010, 07:17 PM   #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cocytus
1) I don't know what type of mother Ms. Ray was/is. I do know that even in the early 1990s, it was a very poor idea to travel at night alone with children. I also know that it would have been prudent of her to have had a motel room well in advance of her arrival.

I do know that there are multiple hotels/motels in the Panama City Beach area. Some are more expensive than the others, but most people needing a room at 4 to 5 AM in the morning, aren't going to be that choosy. Especially with young children.
1) Actually I could see why someone would want to leave that late at night with two young children (who most likely would be fussing and fighting several times along the way, all siblings do it). The kids would probably sleep almost the whole way giving Pamela a nice, quiet ride.

You are right about someone not being choosy at 4 or 5 in the morning. She had been driving all night and I'm sure she was tired as hell, so no doubt about it Pamela wouldn't have been picky in her choice for a motel. So even if the Wilhite was a seedy high volume drug area (which there is no apparent evidence to indicate this) then that would explain why Pamela would be content with the Wilhite.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cocytus
2) I actually wouldn't go out and shop for drugs at five o'clock in the morning. When I used to get high, I knew exactly where to go. But that was a long time ago and I was never an addict.
So what makes you so sure in previous posts that this is exactly what Ray was doing?

Quote:
Originally Posted by cocytus
3) And I don't know that there was any law enforcement malfeasance in this. I do know that in a town the size of Panama City Beach given the limited number of murders that occur there in a year ( and considering that most of those are either friends or family related) that this murder should have been solved much sooner than it has been.
it's not as if the Panama City Beach Police Department has the dozens or hundreds of murders of a larger city nor is it been claimed that one or more serial murderers were operating in the area (Panama City Beach Florida area at that time).
The same argument could be made that because the PCBPD investigates less murders per year, that this one kind of threw them off and since in all likelihood she was abducted by someone she did not know that makes it that much harder to solve.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cocytus
4)When or if you try to investigate something, you leave your personal discomfort out of the equation. You seem to be personally discomforted by the fact that this adult woman may have been using drugs (or alcohol) and may have disappeared due to the diminished capacity and inebriated or intoxicated state would create. How would your personal discomfort assist in solve this case?
Nobody seems to have "personal discomfort" on here as far as I can tell. Everyone has an opinion, and obviously we're all fans of UM so we're going to come here and play "armchair detective" and discuss the cases. Just because someone disagrees with you does not predicatethe fact that they're personally bothered because they don't want to accept someone elses opinion. It's called disagreeing!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hambone2421
As for Oba Chandler. No we do not know his whereabouts but he was a handyman type and tended to travel alot for "business". He could have been anywhere at that time and seeing as how Panama City Beach is in his home state, it wouldn't surprise me if it was him.
Hambone, I really think you're on to something with this Oba Chandler theory. The guy was from Florida and the Pamela June Ray case fits his MO almost to a tee. Wish there was a way to dig deeper into his background and whereabouts to see if there was a way to establish that he was either in or around the area of PCB at the time of Pamela's disappearance.
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Old 11-30-2010, 07:38 PM   #100
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Oba was arrested for the death of the woman and her daughters in Tampa Bay, in Sept of 92- just a month after Pamela dissappeared.

I read a book about the murders years ago. Sure wish I still had it as it might shed some light as to where he was in Aug. At the time she went missing, Chandler was living near Daytona Beach- a good 7 hour drive from PCB.
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Old 11-30-2010, 09:22 PM   #101
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Oba was arrested for the death of the woman and her daughters in Tampa Bay, in Sept of 92- just a month after Pamela dissappeared.

I read a book about the murders years ago. Sure wish I still had it as it might shed some light as to where he was in Aug. At the time she went missing, Chandler was living near Daytona Beach- a good 7 hour drive from PCB.
Chandler doesn't match the description of the man last seen w/ Ms. Ray. And there's no record of him being "active" in the PCB area.
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Old 11-30-2010, 09:46 PM   #102
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Chandler doesn't match the description of the man last seen w/ Ms. Ray. And there's no record of him being "active" in the PCB area.
I'm not convinced it was Chandler-just open to the possibilty if it becomes known where he was on that day.

I still believe it was the scenario I stated in an above post.
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Old 11-30-2010, 11:04 PM   #103
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Also, it doesn't fit Chandler's MO.
He liked to use his boat, usually at sunset, to commit his crimes.
Look at the rape he was convicted of--It was the same story as the Rodgers irls murders.
In fact, had the girl he raped brought along her friend, he probably would have killed her too. The only reason he spared her life was because he knew her friend met him and would recognize him if she went missing.

But in both cases, his boat was involved, luring them out to a ''sunset cruise.''

As far as we know, there was no boat involved, and only a minimal amount of luring involved. This seems like a more typical "sudden grab" scenario--Like what befell Angela Hammond; Whereas Oba was patient and could lay his trap for these women days ahead of time.
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Old 12-01-2010, 10:33 AM   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Killarney Rose
I read a book about the murders years ago. Sure wish I still had it as it might shed some light as to where he was in Aug.
You may be referring to "Death Cruise" by Don Davis. Very good book and very insightful. It also has pictures from an undeveloped camera the girls had in their hotel room. Very eerie.
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Old 12-01-2010, 10:50 AM   #105
CuriousMind90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hambone2421
You may be referring to "Death Cruise" by Don Davis. Very good book and very insightful. It also has pictures from an undeveloped camera the girls had in their hotel room. Very eerie.
Especially that last photo one of the girls took, of the water just at the beginning of that final, fateful sunset.
May Oba Chandler rot, and may a special place in Hell be waiting just for him.
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