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Old 12-28-2007, 07:51 PM   #31
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Well, I will just say here and now, if I offended you Corky I do apologize. Most of the time I think you are funny, most of the time we get along, I should have handled this in a more mature manner but I got frustrated not because of your opinion but because I was impatient in waiting for you to explain it. I should have just waited until you answered and not pushed the issue and aggrevated it and I do apologize for that. I dont know if you will accept it or not but I should have handled this in a better way and I am sorry that I didnt.
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Old 12-28-2007, 07:54 PM   #32
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Well Corky, after you stated your opinion, I am even more sorry for what I said, while I do not agree with your opinion, you did come up with a very detailed opinion, so I can tell you put a lot of thought into your opinion and I guess we will have to agree to disagree I guess. But you did do what appears to me to be extensive research into this topic although I dont agree with the conclusions you came to, but you did your research and I commend you for that.
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Old 12-28-2007, 08:35 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crystaldawn
Wow that person who suggested this was a "crime of passion" sounds brilliant.
Well usually she's pretty sharp but she's a step behind on this one!

Quote:
Originally Posted by crystaldawn
I think I could discount the whole timeline of the mother and the light being off. It actually makes more sense to the murder theory which I believe. It didn't mention whether Tony had a habit of sleeping naked and quite possible his parents didn't know but considering all of the women Tony dated surely that fact could be easily found out by the authorities.

Quote:
Originally Posted by crystaldawn
They didn't produce anything going on in Tony's life that would have made him suicidal. Surely this guy going around dating a ton of girls sounds like he's enjoying his life and I certainly don't think a DUI would have made him want to end it all.
"They didn't produce..." = You don't agree with what they did say made him suicidal. This is the crux of the argument I guess between the "murder" crowd and the "suicide" crowd. In the segment Robert Stack is heard during a voice over saying (Paraphrasing) “Here is Tony Lombardi as his friends and family like to remember him…fun loving and quick with a smile” as if it shows Tony as some life of the party yukkin it up. Yet when I see look at the video of him, he looks completely uncomfortable being on camera and offers a weak smile and wave. I see a man regretfully acknowledging the camera’s presence. In my opinion, there should be a thought balloon from TL’s head in that video reading “Get that ****in camera off me. Right. Now.”. There is also an RS voice over, and I believe a comment from TL’s mom, regarding how much of a womanizer TL was even mentioning, with what I consider bizarre relish, that he was even seeing a woman who was living with another man. You stay classy, San Diego. While this has nothing to do with his death, for me, I do find it indicative of his overbearing mother’s insistence that he couldn’t, or wouldn’t, kill himself. As if to say, “But had no reason to kill himself? He loved his life as a skirt chasing adulterer!”



Quote:
Originally Posted by crystaldawn
Its quite possible the gun belonged to Tony. The fact there was one maybe two people out there threatening his life could have prompted him to get a gun for protection.
That woudl be great to know. You know, I haven't seen the extended version Wiseguy182 spoke about...I wonder if it mentions whose gun it is in that one. The fact that its not brought out in the segment leads me to believe it was traceable to the family legally.

Quote:
Originally Posted by crystaldawn
I think the fact that he was naked (if it wasn't his nature to sleep that way) is another point in favor of it being a crime of passion. This man could have interrupted Tony with his girlfriend and possibly seen a gun that possibly Tony kept in plain sight, shot him with it and left.
Boy you can't help but talk about him being naked can you? Geez...

Quote:
Originally Posted by crystaldawn
Who would commit suicide while they were naked - sounds a bit bizarre.
To me the whole notion of suicide sounds bizarre. Once you've made that transition past preservation of your own life, you're not clicking on all cylinders. If you're asserting that this has to be a murder because being naked while commiting suicide is just too bizarre then I just don't know what to tell ya.



Quote:
Originally Posted by crystaldawn
No doubt there are probably at least a few people around town who know exactly who murdered Tony but are afraid to mention anything for fear of losing their own lives.
LOL!! No doubt about, huh? They afraid of that evil criminal master mind going around offing guys and making it look like suicides? Those nefarious ne'er do wells are the scourge of Westerville, Ohio!!


Quote:
Originally Posted by crystaldawn
Lets also remember that UM does leave out some key facts in order to substantiate the credible tips from the bogus ones so there could have been some evidence left at the crime scene that they just didn't mention.
Or they could have left out evidence found at the crime scene in order to make it look more mysterious and not so overwhelmingly obvious he killed himself.


Quote:
Originally Posted by crystaldawn
Interesting and well thought out theory Corky but I still say murder.
Thanks you. Okay, Cee to the Dee...speak to some of the points I brought out if you would.
You stated you discount her version of the timeline and the lights...what do you mean by that exactly?
How credible is the mom? Credible on some things but nt others?
Do you think the murderer came there to kill or not to kill?
Did he walk or drive?
Did he come there with or without a gun?
How did the killer get in?
Was it the killer's intention to make the murder look like a suicide?
Why did he hang around for several hours before the mom got home?
Why was he afraid of leaving when she was there?
Why leave the gun?
Why turn the lights on when he left after making such an effort to go undetected for approx. 12 hours or so?
If he found Tony in bed with his girl how did she get there?
How did she leave?
Why didn't the investigators mention that they know Tony was having sex shortly before he died?
Do you think they tried to track down whoever was in bed with him that day? Stands to reason that they could either eliminate or match DNA from prospective paramours (with their consent of course).
Did the cops talk to neighbors to see if they saw any cars or people in and out of the house that day?
Did the cops do an inept job?
Do you believe Tony's mom's first version of the noise or the current version of the noise?
Do you believe Tony's friend was contacted by the police?
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Old 12-28-2007, 10:57 PM   #34
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Sorry but I will never believe this man committed suicide. I see nothing that points to this. I see way too much that points to foul play.
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Old 12-29-2007, 05:10 AM   #35
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I am sending a copy of the extended version to Crystaldawn, I was going to have it out by now, but a bout of laryngitis kept me bedridden for a few days. She may put it on vol 13, or at least the clip of the second death threat.

Corky,

I have never heard anyone committing suicide over a DUI. I've known alot of people that have obtained them and some of them were arrested for it, and while getting one is certainly a fly in the ointment, none of them were even remotely close to committing suicide. I have never heard of any case in the news saying that someone committed suicide over a DUI. If Tony being without a car is the case, I'm sure he had several people that were willing to drive him. I think what some people were getting at was that since Tony was a big hit with the ladies, they were more implying that he was a well liked person and not that he was an adulterer. I think most people that committ suicide do it because they feel that not only has their life been a disappointment, but their life will continue to be a disappointment, or at least that's how they view it. The legal problems were pending at that point, so Tony was unsure of his future.

Regarding the door noise, Tony's mom never states that she specifically knew what it was, if I recall correctly. She heard a noise (that could have been anything) but that she heard a noise made her believe that her son was home. It doesn't matter what the noise was, hearing a noise period tells her her son was home. So she investigates. She later tells police she doesn't know what the noise was, which makes sense because she really doesn't know what it was.

As far as them not being afraid of killing Tony, but not wanting to run afould of a middle aged woman, the killer(s) might not have even been aware of the other occupants of the house.

Regarding the killer hanging around for hours, it is possible they didn't plan on anyone else coming home that night, and figured they had ample time to clean up, etc.

Regading whose gun it was, I don't believe the killers came unarmed. However, one possibility is that they bring their own gun, yet use the gun in the house to make it more look like suicide.

Regarding the naked thing, even though Tony probably wouldn't have cared much if he committed suicide, but he would have known his mother would have discovered him like that, and I can't imagine anyone wanting to be discovered nude by their mother under any circumstances.

Regarding no signs of struggle/no signs of anyone else, I'm actually not suprised by that, since I believe the killers had several hours in the house, they had ample time to clean up any signs of struggle and trace of themselves: something they would have to do in order for it to look like a suicide.

You are correct in that the bruises/broken jaw don't necessarily mean that it happened during his death. However, if it happened the previous night during a fight like you suggested, it's not something that can easily be hidden. Tony would have a hard time not occasionally wincing in pain with those he came in contact with the morning and afternoon of the day of his death.

Regarding the bullet trajectory, the bullet was found low on his headboard of his bead. he was found with the pillows covering the hole and his head above the pillows. This means that the bullet was lower than how he was found. Additionally, most people committing suicide by gun do it from by placing a gun to one side of the head, and the bullet exits the other side. This way, he would have had to do it by placing the bullet at his forehead, and it exiting the back of his head: possible, but unlikely.

Regarding the light on/off thing. You yourself stated that Tony had been dead for several hours. So how does his light get on? With the light being off, Tony's mom knew that he was either asleep or not there, so she wouldn't have had any reason to knock on the door in either instance. When the light comes on, she figures that he is both present and awake, and subsequently knocks on the door, which makes sense. The light switching on indicates another person was present.

Again, I would like to know what hours Tony's shift was supposed to be that night, something the segment doesn't mention. I think it factors into the case.

Goodness, I think that was my longest ever post.
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Old 12-29-2007, 06:41 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wiseguy182
Regarding the light on/off thing. You yourself stated that Tony had been dead for several hours. So how does his light get on? With the light being off, Tony's mom knew that he was either asleep or not there, so she wouldn't have had any reason to knock on the door in either instance. When the light comes on, she figures that he is both present and awake, and subsequently knocks on the door, which makes sense. The light switching on indicates another person was present.
So the killer waits in Tony's room for hours with the lights off, then turns the light on for some reason, opens the door (which is what his mother claims to have heard) and escapes unheard in the same time it takes his mother to open her bedroom door. Doesn't sound right to me but I don't have any other thoughts or theories to offer except to say the door noise was just a normal house noise and the mother is going nutz regarding the lights on/off.
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Old 12-29-2007, 06:51 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Space Invaderz
So the killer waits in Tony's room for hours with the lights off, then turns the light on for some reason, opens the door (which is what his mother claims to have heard) and escapes unheard in the same time it takes his mother to open her bedroom door. Doesn't sound right to me but I don't have any other thoughts or theories to offer except to say the door noise was just a normal house noise and the mother is going nutz regarding the lights on/off.
maybe, but not necessarily. If there were killers in the house, I think everyone would agree that they would bank on Cheryl not coming home when she did. So when Cheryl comes home, they have to hide. Tony's room is the perfect spot, and if the light is off, she won't expect him to be in here/awake, which sure enough was the case. They wait until Cheryl is in bed, which would be a good opportunity, and also may explain the noise: which could have been anything, and may have been caused by the killer.
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Old 12-29-2007, 06:59 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wiseguy182
maybe, but not necessarily. If there were killers in the house, I think everyone would agree that they would bank on Cheryl not coming home when she did. So when Cheryl comes home, they have to hide. Tony's room is the perfect spot, and if the light is off, she won't expect him to be in here/awake, which sure enough was the case. They wait until Cheryl is in bed, which would be a good opportunity, and also may explain the noise: which could have been anything, and may have been caused by the killer.
I still have the problem of the time between the killers closing the door and his mother coming out of her room which is the time it took the killers to escape, unseen and unheard. When did Tony die? Or more to the point; how long had his mother been in the house beforehand. If the killers were to wait out in his room with the lights off they would of risked his mother walking into the room at any time, they couldn't make a move at all otherwise they would of been heard. If his mother was in the house any real lenght of time, even an hour, the killer was alot more patient than what I expect most people would be.
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Old 12-29-2007, 07:21 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Space Invaderz
I still have the problem of the time between the killers closing the door and his mother coming out of her room which is the time it took the killers to escape, unseen and unheard. When did Tony die? Or more to the point; how long had his mother been in the house beforehand. If the killers were to wait out in his room with the lights off they would of risked his mother walking into the room at any time, they couldn't make a move at all otherwise they would of been heard. If his mother was in the house any real lenght of time, even an hour, the killer was alot more patient than what I expect most people would be.
The killers wouldn't have had much of a choice but to be quiet. The alternative (getting caught and going to prison) is much worse.

I agree that it would be nice to know the timeframe for alot of these things, estimated time of death, time Cheryl came home, time of Tony's shift, time she discovered him, etc.
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Old 12-29-2007, 08:47 AM   #40
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Didn't leave yet...had to go into work this morning (stupid end of year paperwork)...we all know how productive I'm being here too lol. ok on to my post:
well, when i first saw this story on UM, I was convinced that there was foul play afoot. But now, I'm just not sure, although I am leaning towards suicide. I agree with Corky in the fact that his life did blase. Being 22 years old, and having your whole lifed mapped out in front of you in a dead end job would make anyone depressed. Maybe the DUI was the last straw, maybe not, I just don't think that this would be the sole reason for a suicide.

As far as the light on/off thing, I think that TL's Mother easily could have mistaken the times that she saw the lights being on and off, as well as whether it was on or off first. This could happen due to the pure mental shock of disccovering her son's body, and out of trying to rationalize the situation, which would be very difficult to do. While she may be right, the fact that she was exposed to such traumatic stress makes be all the more skeptical.

The trajectory of the bullet is also interesting. While I am certainly not a ballistics expert, it is possible that he was holding the gun to his forehead. I agree that it is not the most likely place to hold a gun when one is attempting to end their own life, it is possible, and cannot be ignored. He may have needed to look at the weapon as a way to kind of gain the courage to pull the trigger. This also plays into my sleeping naked theory. He might not have wanted his mother to find him in that manner, but also may have been so distraught that he didn't care. Other than that I can't think of any other explination for the nakedness.

Crime of passion doesn't seem as likely to me either. It is true that he was sleeping with married women, but had the person who sent the death threat been the murderer, I don't believe he would wait in the bedroom for several hours. This person would not have been a professional killer, and would have probably wanted to flee the scene immediately.

I don't see a hitman being hired either, because I am sure that if the police had any reason to suspect murder, and had a suspect, that financial records would have been examined.

Finally after this long winded explination , the one reason that I haven't found so far to point towards suicide is that nobody was ever caught. There are a lot of cases when people are killed (unless a serial killer etc..) when the killer knows the victim. Invariably, those caught, no matter how careful they are at cleaning up evidence, are caught because they open their mouths to someone. They get drunk and talk, or simply blab, and then are turned in...as far as i know, this has not happened.
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Old 12-29-2007, 08:55 AM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GaryJ06
As far as the light on/off thing, I think that TL's Mother easily could have mistaken the times that she saw the lights being on and off, as well as whether it was on or off first. This could happen due to the pure mental shock of disccovering her son's body, and out of trying to rationalize the situation, which would be very difficult to do. While she may be right, the fact that she was exposed to such traumatic stress makes be all the more skeptical.
I believed Cheryl in this regard. She only knocked on his door when the light was on. When it was off, she had no reason to knock on his door, because she knew he would either be a) gone, or b) asleep. There wouldn't have been any reason for her to knock on the door under either of those 2 circumstances, (unless there was some type of emergency that warranted waking him up).
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Old 12-29-2007, 09:53 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wiseguy182
I am sending a copy of the extended version to Crystaldawn, I was going to have it out by now, but a bout of laryngitis kept me bedridden for a few days. She may put it on vol 13, or at least the clip of the second death threat.
Does it mention anything about the ownership of the gun?
Where Tony fired his gun into his head?
Any professional bullet trajectory theory?



Quote:
Originally Posted by wiseguy182
I have never heard anyone committing suicide over a DUI. I've known alot of people that have obtained them and some of them were arrested for it, and while getting one is certainly a fly in the ointment, none of them were even remotely close to committing suicide. I have never heard of any case in the news saying that someone committed suicide over a DUI.
You know what? I've never heard a news story like that either. And I'm happy ofr you that the poeple you've known who've received DUIs were in such a good place that they didn't think to commit suicide. However, I've known of two people who comitted suicide, in their mom's house by the way, and they had received DUIs. However, at no time ever in both of those cases did I ever hear anyone say "XXX had gotten a DUI...and THAT'S why he killed himself!" We understood that these people were deeply depressed individuals who didn't kill themselves because of a single event, rather a lifetime of perceived flaws and foul-ups culminating in a choice not to go on.

Because as I tried to make abundantly clear...the DUI is just the final big occurence to make these people choose not going on any longer. In one of the above suicides I knew of, in which he hung himself under his mother's stair case, he received his DUI like 3 years before he killed himself. He was always depressed, always unhappy and uncomfortable, and his DUI was one of those things he pointed to as how he had "****ed up" his chances. But like I said, none of us said it was the DUI that did it, the news didn't say that a young man killed himself over a DUI, because it doesn't work like that.

I guess I'll say it once more...I AM NOT SAYING HE KILLED HIMSELF JUST BECAUSE HE GOT A DUI. I'm saying that his low estimation of himself and his depression made him kill himself. The DUI just one more clue for himself as to how worthless he was. As was the dead-end job. As was him living at home at his age. As was his impending legal troubles. As was his feelings that people were out to get him and he couldn't handle it. None of which I think people of sound reasoning kill themselves over. But in my interpretation Tony hadn't been thinking like that for a while and all of the known elements, and probably a ton we'll never know, created a sort of "perfect storm" for suicide.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wiseguy182
If Tony being without a car is the case, I'm sure he had several people that were willing to drive him.
Well fantastic. He should have just called you if he was worried about it. I'm being flippant of course, and please excuse me, but the point you're missing throughout wiseguy182, is that it doesn't matter what you think his options could have been...Tony was in a state of depression that caused him to see minor setbacks as insurmountable problems. Everyday "crap happens" occurences, like a watch breaking or a driver going nuts and threatening us, appeared to him as repetitious proof that his life sucked and the bigger problematic occurences, like the loss of independence a car represents, was proof that it would never get any better.

This is all conjecture and I don't intend to impune Tony's life at all, I'm just saying that in my opinion this was how he saw himself and saw his life and he was unhappy enough with it to kill himself.


Quote:
Originally Posted by wiseguy182
Regarding the door noise, Tony's mom never states that she specifically knew what it was, if I recall correctly. She heard a noise (that could have been anything) but that she heard a noise made her believe that her son was home. It doesn't matter what the noise was, hearing a noise period tells her her son was home. So she investigates. She later tells police she doesn't know what the noise was, which makes sense because she really doesn't know what it was.
No, you've got it incorrect. She states specifically in the UM interview that she heard a door noise. You also have the time line incorrect. At FIRST she cannot specify what the sound was, even when the question "was it a door noise?" is put to her. Then LATER, after she has decided her son was murdered, the noise THEN BECOMES a "door noise" which must have been the killers escaping. As I contend earlier in this thread, the family are the ones who come to a conclusion then fit the official record to the conclusion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wiseguy182
As far as them not being afraid of killing Tony, but not wanting to run afould of a middle aged woman, the killer(s) might not have even been aware of the other occupants of the house.
Then why hang around for several hours in the dark?

Quote:
Originally Posted by wiseguy182
Regading whose gun it was, I don't believe the killers came unarmed. However, one possibility is that they bring their own gun, yet use the gun in the house to make it more look like suicide.
Yeah I examined that scenario in my post. Its not impossible, in fact its the best explanation for getting control of a 22 year old man without a struggle, but it doesn't hold water if you examine it.
The killer forces Tony to shoot himself? I think anyone with a gun trained on them being told to take another gun and shoot themself would do the same thing I would...you'd shoot at the person with the gun.
The killer has a gun trained on Tony, forces him to go get another gun, switches guns, and then holds down Tony and uses the 2nd gun to make it look like a suicide. This killer planned all this, along with a 12 hour clean-up time, yet won't confront the mom and order her around with a gun? Also you have to acknowledge that this criminal mastermind seriously blew it by how he staged the body. He thinks of everything down to cleaning up any foensic evidence yet completely screws up the bullet trajectory?

You have to try too hard to make this a murder, you guys. Why can't you see that?

Quote:
Originally Posted by wiseguy182
Regarding the naked thing, even though Tony probably wouldn't have cared much if he committed suicide, but he would have known his mother would have discovered him like that, and I can't imagine anyone wanting to be discovered nude by their mother under any circumstances.
So dead is cool, but naked is a no-no??!? CrystalDawn said the same thing, and if that's what you guys are going with as proof that it can't be suicide...I can't say anything to that.

Wait...yes I can...so if it can't be a suicide because its just too bizarre for someone to kill themselves in the nude; THEN I SAY it can't be a murder because its just too bizarre for someone to plan to dress a murder up as a suicide, hang around with the dead body for at least 10 hours, and then be scared to confront a middle-aged woman all alone in a house.

There.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wiseguy182
You are correct in that the bruises/broken jaw don't necessarily mean that it happened during his death. However, if it happened the previous night during a fight like you suggested, it's not something that can easily be hidden. Tony would have a hard time not occasionally wincing in pain with those he came in contact with the morning and afternoon of the day of his death.
Unless it happened at 2am at a bar, for instance. Tony comes home and sleeps. His mom, knowing Tony works the swing shift at the baby food cannery, lets him sleep and doesn't interrupt him. Judging by the description of her activity and the activity she expected of Tony, they probably would only see each other at night.

There's no reason anyone would have had to see him in between the fight and the suicide.

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Originally Posted by wiseguy182
Regarding the bullet trajectory, the bullet was found low on his headboard of his bead. he was found with the pillows covering the hole and his head above the pillows. This means that the bullet was lower than how he was found. Additionally, most people committing suicide by gun do it from by placing a gun to one side of the head, and the bullet exits the other side. This way, he would have had to do it by placing the bullet at his forehead, and it exiting the back of his head: possible, but unlikely.
or fired up under his chin in his elevated state, the bullet ricochets and then takes a downward trajectory into the headboard or into another bone it riochets off of...I just can't go with bullet trajectory theory as provided by a mom with a pencil.


Quote:
Originally Posted by wiseguy182
Regarding the light on/off thing. You yourself stated that Tony had been dead for several hours. So how does his light get on? With the light being off, Tony's mom knew that he was either asleep or not there, so she wouldn't have had any reason to knock on the door in either instance. When the light comes on, she figures that he is both present and awake, and subsequently knocks on the door, which makes sense. The light switching on indicates another person was present.
I already stated I don't think the light went from off to on. I think the light was always on, I just think Tony's mom is unreliable. If I ever talk about the light being off, its me discussing one of the implausible murder scenarios in which a murderer either hangs around and cleans up immaculately, yet for some reason forces himself to do it in the dark.
-----ORRRRR-----
The killer hangs around for hours, cleans up with the lights on and then sees Cheryl come home and turns out the light. But if you go with that scenario, it demolishes your "killer was unaware of other people in the house" theory and again forces an explanation of why this dastardly villian, a criminal cunning the likes of Professor Moriarty, then becomes afraid of the mommy of the guy he killed.
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Old 12-29-2007, 11:59 AM   #43
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I was always totally convinced Tony was murdered, but Corky brings up some interesting points in his posts so now I'm not sure whether it was a murder or a suicide...

I'm going to watch it again before I make up my mind though
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Old 12-29-2007, 01:36 PM   #44
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There is also no evidence that Tony was depressed or hated his job. Unless I missed something in the segment.

I cannot remember but wasn't there something about a baseball bat that was in Tony's room?
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Old 12-29-2007, 02:48 PM   #45
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I would like to know how the police explained how the bullethole in the bed could be so much lower than where his head was positioned on the pillows, to my knowledge they didn't explain that in the segment.

And how did the police explain the bruises? I think it's possible he was in a fight earlier and that he didn't want his mom to know and never told her.

One other thing, if someone did sneak through his window, I find it extremely hard to believe his mother didn't notice anything else other than that thump - if there was in fact a struggle in his bedroom (where he possibly could have got his bruises from) you would think his parents would've heard that.
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