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Old 06-06-2011, 05:15 AM   #136
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None of the Faces of Death movies are real. First, if a film crew knowingly filmed a sacrifice, they'd be just as liable as those who committed the murder. You can't film a murder and distribute it as part of a film without facing the same consequences as the murderer. Second, no group would allow a sacrifice to be filmed. Generally speaking, those who would do such a thing wouldn't be concerned with filming it, getting the lighting right etc... That's evidence that can be used against them and any group practicing this sort of thing would want as little evidence as possible floating around. You're free to believe it is real, but there is actually proof out there that it isn't. Many of the books on the subject have also been debunked. I have quite an extensive collection of those books and the books debunking them. It makes for some pretty interesting reading when you are privy to the real actions of the supposed victims around the time they were supposed to have been being tortured by some Satanic cult.

Moving along. I happen to be a Pagan, so I think I can speak with authority on what we do and what we don't do. First and foremost, we do not practice any form of sacrifice. Now, the sex issue is where the waters get muddy. Some groups do incorporate sexual activity. Many of them are following the tradition of Gerald Gardner, Ray Buckland and their ilk. It is not expressly forbidden, but it is not required either. I won't say that sex is not a part of ritual for some groups, because it is. I will say that I have never seen it done. Normally, it is practiced by one or two types of Pagans. You have your doing everything I can to piss of the uptight people types and those who follow Gardner et al. The rest of us don't bother with that stuff because, well, there's no need to. Some will say it enhances the ritual or whatever. Personally, I find that an excuse to get some and nothing more.

In all honesty, if most non-Pagans attended one ritual of ours, they would get something completely different from what they expect. In fact, they would probably be bored and disappointed because no naked people are running around engaging in wanton sex. You'd see pretty much what you see in any religious celebration.

Now, the morality comment from a few pages back rubbed me the wrong way. So do all of the references of this "cult." It is true that our faith is different and it teaches us to interact with those around us differently, however, our morals are generally the same. We do not take kindly to anybody engaging in sexual relations with under-aged people for starters. The people who find that sort of thing "liberating" or whatever face the scorn of the rest of us and usually end up with a police office on their doorstep. Also, a different religion does not a cult equal. It's kind of like if I were calling protestants a cult. That would offend protestants. We get lumped into groups all of the time which do not fit us.

I will wind up this novel very shortly, I promise. I have one more point to address. What people often consider proof of "Satanic" activity is usually kids screwing around. The Church of Satan in SF has a building in which to practice. They don't need to go out in the woods for such things. They do not condone sacrifice or anything of the sort. Are there mixed up kids out there skinning animals and claiming they are Satanists? Absolutely. Are they really Satanists? Not by a long shot.

The armor missing bit, is quite easy to explain if you know a thing or two about the SCA. Armor is more expensive then you would imagine. It is extremely pricey. Somebody probably stole it from the car to either sell at an event or to use. I'm not kidding, the stuff costs a fortune. The more authentic it is, the more it will set you back. People make a great deal of money on Ebay selling SCA armor. Makes we wish I would have learned how when my ex dragged me to so many of their events.
To be honest, you are being defensive of your beliefs for no reason. At no point was Kurt involved in Paganism. He was beginning to study Paganism, as well as Druidism, witchcraft, and other forms of earth-based religions. What he was actually involved in was a cult. Not a religion. So, defending your religion is kind of ridiculous, as it has absolutely nothing to do with how Kurt was murdered, nor is anyone pointing to your religion as the cause of his murder. The fact that your religion, or even the Church of Satan does not practice sacrifice has nothing to do with what Kurt was involved in. He was not following any of these religions! So, why waste time defending something that has nothing to do with Kurt, or why he was murdered? It seems pretty strange that you're using this forum to stand on a soap box and preach about irrelevant topics.

Regardless of the fact that some people want to lump all religions together as cults, does not change the fact that Kurt was murdered in a sacrificial way, and was involved in a cult that killed him. No one here has pointed at you, or your religion, and said you are responsible.
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Old 06-06-2011, 09:13 AM   #137
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No offense, but is it a "fact" that McFall was murdered in a "sacrificial" manner?
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Old 06-06-2011, 09:16 AM   #138
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I don't know if SFPD deliberately didn't investigate as they should, or if they simply didn't have the manpower and funds to do a proper investigation. As I said, at the time, there was only about a 36% arrest rate for murder, at best. SFPD, like Oakland PD, has problems with solving crimes, due to the sheer number of people vs. police, and a constant budget crisis. They may have done the best they could, with what they had. I work with troubled youth/gangsters, and it's an 'open secret' that if you want to get away with murder, you do it in Oakland and San Francisco. This has also been confirmed by police that I know and have worked with in both cities.
Regardless of SFPD's ability, if they knew there were multiple stab wounds on the body, as you claim, yet ruled the death "accidental", a cover-up is the only logical conclusion.
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Old 06-06-2011, 11:01 AM   #139
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Regardless of SFPD's ability, if they knew there were multiple stab wounds on the body, as you claim, yet ruled the death "accidental", a cover-up is the only logical conclusion.
Yes and if this was a "sacrificial" murder, what motive would the SFPD have in covering it up? I can understand them not commenting on the case on UM since it was an active investigation, but to cover it up?
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Old 06-06-2011, 03:31 PM   #140
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And as far as Carodac looking "suspicious" in that clip, lots of people act guilty and aren't.
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Old 06-06-2011, 03:44 PM   #141
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Yes and if this was a "sacrificial" murder, what motive would the SFPD have in covering it up? I can understand them not commenting on the case on UM since it was an active investigation, but to cover it up?
Therein lies the problem for this and the multitude of other conspiracy theories put forth on UM and this Board, since if SFPD covered up evidence of a sacrificial murder, the logical conclusion is that the SFPD is in league with a satanist cult.

Is this possible? Anything's possible. Is it at all likely? Not in my opinion.
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Old 06-06-2011, 06:42 PM   #142
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Therein lies the problem for this and the multitude of other conspiracy theories put forth on UM and this Board, since if SFPD covered up evidence of a sacrificial murder, the logical conclusion is that the SFPD is in league with a satanist cult.

Is this possible? Anything's possible. Is it at all likely? Not in my opinion.
That's generally the premise the more "vocal" conspiracy theorists fall back on. When the whole Satanic Panic thing began, people began questioning inconsistencies quite a bit. The answer they got was that everyone was in on it. Entire police departments, judges, high ranking government officials. Even an FBI agent who published a report that stated there was no evidence of such activity was said to have been in on it. While it is possible that certain police officers conspire to get away with certain illegal activities, I find it highly improbable that an entire police department much less government agencies would conspire in such a way.

Though I have enjoyed UM for many years, I've always been disappointed when they played up conspiracy theories. I know, they make for good TV, but they don't make for accurate TV. When one hopes to solve a murder or a missing persons case via a television program, accurate should trump sensational every time.
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Old 06-07-2011, 08:19 AM   #143
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That's generally the premise the more "vocal" conspiracy theorists fall back on. When the whole Satanic Panic thing began, people began questioning inconsistencies quite a bit. The answer they got was that everyone was in on it. Entire police departments, judges, high ranking government officials. Even an FBI agent who published a report that stated there was no evidence of such activity was said to have been in on it. While it is possible that certain police officers conspire to get away with certain illegal activities, I find it highly improbable that an entire police department much less government agencies would conspire in such a way.

Though I have enjoyed UM for many years, I've always been disappointed when they played up conspiracy theories. I know, they make for good TV, but they don't make for accurate TV. When one hopes to solve a murder or a missing persons case via a television program, accurate should trump sensational every time.
I couldn't agree more.

Since a "conspiracy" is legally defined as any two or more people working together in a criminal objective, many UM cases prob. are technical conspiracies, but can anyone name ANY proven wide-scale conspiracy involving government, law enforcement, cults, white slavery rings, etc., etc. that kills people and commits crimes?

Given the number of people these conspiracies MUST involve, that no credible evidence has EVER been discovered is, to me, and IMO any rational person with a modicum of critical thinking, a fatal defect.

I do separate out, however, what might be called "CYA conspiracies" - i.e., cases where law enforcement bungled an investigation and then tried to cover-up their ineptitude. Certainly a few notable UM's fall into this category.
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Old 06-07-2011, 10:42 AM   #144
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I couldn't agree more.

Since a "conspiracy" is legally defined as any two or more people working together in a criminal objective, many UM cases prob. are technical conspiracies, but can anyone name ANY proven wide-scale conspiracy involving government, law enforcement, cults, white slavery rings, etc., etc. that kills people and commits crimes?

Given the number of people these conspiracies MUST involve, that no credible evidence has EVER been discovered is, to me, and IMO any rational person with a modicum of critical thinking, a fatal defect.

I do separate out, however, what might be called "CYA conspiracies" - i.e., cases where law enforcement bungled an investigation and then tried to cover-up their ineptitude. Certainly a few notable UM's fall into this category.
I also think that a majority of this board cries "conspiracy" when a police department commits a blunder, or makes a mistake. They're human, too. Was there ever another "mysterious" disappearance or murder with someone involved in Caradoc's cult? I don't think so, or else he would have been investigated further.
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Old 06-20-2011, 02:15 PM   #145
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I just saw this case for the first time on crystaldawn's DVD Vol. 2. Here's my question: why is it always with the Satanism on this show? For the sake of reference, I've done internet searches for "Satanism" and "Church of Satan," etc. In an era when you can find any weird thing people want to do on the internet, there is precious little on any organized Satanic cult activity out there. I understand, of course, that if people are doing something truly illegal (sacrificing animals and the like) they might not want to make a public advertisement of same, but at the same time the "freedom of speech" we enjoy is exercised, often in extraordinarily graphic detail, on the internet all the time. And yet there really isn't much out there about "Black Masses" and the like. The one "church" operating under the name of "Church of Satan" is not really worshipping the Devil as a Christian would commonly understand that term, but more of a "natural spirit."

It just seems to me that whenever a teenager is murdered in this show, Satanism is one of three more or less "automatic" explanations that people seem to reach for. And yet, it seems to me that ACTUAL devil worship is exceedingly rare.

In this case, of course, McFall's father is linking the kid's interest in Dungeons & Dragons to the occult and ultimately to Satanism. This, to me, is a little like people who believe the Ouija board is a gateway to evil --- I don't think the mystical powers of the underworld can be conjured by a $10 board made by Milton Bradley anymore than I believe that pretending to be a dragon and rolling a 12-sided die, however weird-looking that object may be, can turn you into someone capable of channelling Beezlebub.

What I mostly curious about in this case is the kid's father's apparent disinterest in a more obvious motive for his murder (if he was murdered) or suicide --- a lover's quarrell. What 17 year old kid stays over at the house of a 35 year old man who is just a "friend"? Perhaps McFall was depressed that his firend simply left him out in the living room and went to bed --- i.e., he was hoping to have a romantic encounter --- and when it didn't materialize, he drove off in a huff, pounded a few beers, and decided to end it all (I also like McFall's father's contention that his son "didn't drink" --- sure buddy, you go right ahead and believe that if it makes you happy; he hangs out with all sorts of people over 21, he, according to you, was becoming interested in worshipping the Devil, but alcohol at 17? --- that's immoral). Alternatively, maybe he and his friend did go out there and get into some kind of altercation, and he ended up over the cliff.

I'm just stunned at how often "Satanism" or some variation on that theme comes up in these segments. From everything I can gather, it's not a common thing to do at all!

you really think people are going to post their satanic activities online for people like you to research? lmao
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Old 06-20-2011, 08:23 PM   #146
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you really think people are going to post their satanic activities online for people like you to research? lmao
Sure. You think people are going to create message boards so that people can discuss the minutiae of moribund cases?
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Old 06-23-2011, 08:46 PM   #147
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everything on the net can be traced, remember that
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Old 10-16-2011, 05:22 PM   #148
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...I don't see any reason to suspect him of murder other than his wearing tacky glasses...
I shouldn't be laughing here, but those 10 years out of date glasses he was sporting were kinda funny.
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Old 10-18-2011, 05:32 PM   #149
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Some thoughts on Kurt McFall I sent to another poster some time ago. Figured I would post them since the thread was bumped and to see what you guys think...

I watched the segment again over the weekend. I still believe that the known evidence points toward an accidental death. One of the issues I have grappled with in the past is trying to wrap my mind around just how Kurt died, but after reassessing all the facts I think I have a good idea.

Before I begin constructing a theory, I like to establish a timeline of key events in the case. One interesting thing I noticed that I hadn’t caught on previous viewings was an error in the segment itself. Stack reported Saturday’s date as both September 8 and September 10. September 8, 1984 did fall on a Saturday; likewise the 10th fell on a Monday. I have made the appropriate corrections to the timeline below.

Saturday, September 8, 1984 – Kurt drives from his home in Concord to San Francisco to spend the evening with his friend and mentor Gabriel “Caradoc” Carrillo.

Early Sunday morning around 12am – Kurt went swimming at Ocean Beach.

Early Sunday morning around 3am – according to Carrillo, Kurt knocked on his bedroom door and said he couldn’t sleep so he was going to the beach. I should add the disclaimer here that this event is based on Carrillo’s account. Since Carrillo is a suspect in Kurt’s death, I don’t want to take this as gospel, but I am including the time as a reference and for clarity.

“The following evening” (Stack’s words) I assume late Sunday, September 9, 1984 – Kurt’s car is located abandoned on a golf course overlooking the ocean.

Monday, September 10, 1984 – Kurt’s body is discovered by bird watchers. At approximately 10:15am, his body is recovered by the Coast Guard.

Obviously, any theory has to fit this timeline. I think it is reasonable to assume that whatever event or events caused Kurt’s death occurred on early Sunday morning, and no later than Sunday evening when his car was picked up. The Coast Guard officers indicated that Kurt’s body was in good condition and appeared as if it had been in the water for “some time”. Kurt’s back was covered with cuts and abrasions. Kurt’s shirt, shoes, socks and belt buckle were missing.

The location in which Kurt’s body was found was described as a cove. Here is a wiki article on coves with a photograph and a description of just what kind of topography constitutes a cove.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cove
Also, I do not know how accurate the re-enactment portions of the UM segment are, but I think it is reasonable to assume that the scenes depicting the recovery of Kurt’s body were likely filmed in the exact location his body was found, or a similar one. I generally don’t like basing a theory on anything shown in a re-enactment as there is no way to say with any degree of certainty just how accurate the re-enactment is to the facts of the case. I am reminded, however, of Karl Malden’s remark in one of the specials that the events have been recreated “in precise detail”. I can’t explain why, but a part of me believes that those early specials – likely created in an attempt to pitch the series to NBC - just may have had the best and most accurate and detailed re-enactments in the history of the series. Just a personal observation.

Moving along, I think we have to defer to Carrillo’s statements, as they are the only clues we have as to Kurt’s activities that weekend. I hate doing this, but we have no other evidence to rely on. A couple comments on Kurt’s seemingly unusual 3am decision to go to the beach: having been born and raised in South Florida, less than a 30 minute drive from the coast, I can’t stress enough just how instrumental the beach is to the lives of the teenagers growing up and living in this area. Most weekend activities are centered around, or involve the beach in some form. It is not unusual to go to the beach in the morning and spend a few hours there before leaving to go shopping or out to eat, only to return to the same or a different beach later that evening. It also isn’t uncommon to keep extra swim trunks or a change of clothes on hand. In the segment, Stack mentions that Kurt went to the beach around midnight on Sunday. Therefore, I don’t find it inconceivable that Kurt spontaneously decided to return to the beach that evening after he realized he couldn’t sleep.

A second point about the beach: in South Florida, most (all?) of the public beaches close at sunset. The beaches are then patrolled by the local police department who WILL hassle you if they find you on the beach past closing time. I don’t know if this is normal in San Francisco, but I don’t think it’s out of question. Also, I will say that if you are a teenager, out past curfew, and looking to chill at the beach, you quickly learn the “sweet spots” that are not heavily or routinely patrolled. This may explain why Kurt’s car was found abandoned in such an unusual location. Also, if Kurt planned to go swimming, which I believe he did, then he may have been forced to choose a spot that while having access to the ocean – wasn’t exactly direct access – he may have had to climb down the cliff to get to the water. If the location matches what was depicted on UM, then he most certainly would have had to scale down the side of a cliff. Given that he was an experienced climber (according to his father) this probably wouldn’t have been an obstacle to Kurt and maybe he took it as a small challenge.

Taking all that into account, I envision Kurt driving to the beach intending to go for a quick swim. He parks his car on the golf course, either to avoid cops, or because it is a nice “scenic overlook” with a bit of a climb down to the beach. As he plans on going swimming, Kurt can’t take his car keys with him into the water, so he has no choice but to leave the car unlocked and the keys inside. I think Kurt took off his shirt and perhaps loosened his belt in anticipation of removing his pants to go swimming. It isn’t indicated if Kurt was wearing swim trunks under his jeans, but I wouldn’t rule it out. I also suppose it is possible he may have decided to go swimming nude – the location was an enclosed cove and it was 3am.

In any event, I think Kurt slipped on the rocks and slid down the cliff on his back. The cliff is mostly jagged rock formation. These rocks can be extremely sharp. About 15 years ago, I slipped and fell on similar rocks in the ocean and sliced up my side and stomach very badly. I’ll never forget the experience. It is no joke. These rocks likely caused the many (likely vertical) cuts and abrasions on Kurt’s back and caused him to bleed profusely. I think that Kurt could have lost his shirt during the tumble. His initial instinct would have been to grab a hold of something, anything, to stop himself from falling. If he was holding his shirt, he would have loosened his grip on it. I think the tumble could have also separated the belt buckle and shoes from Kurt’s body – he may not have been wearing socks to begin with, we don’t know. Unfortunately, I think the shock and impact of the fall rendered Kurt unconscious and he bled out, right there, at the bottom of the cliff below the spot his car was parked. His body wasn’t recovered for over 24 hours so the tide could have taken care of the blood, his belt buckle, the shirt and his shoes.

The most troubling aspect of the entire case is the discovery of Kurt’s car. However, we know it was probably unlocked and unattended for a little under 24 hours. There is no telling who could have come along and taking advantage of the situation. It may have been a vagrant. As some have speculated, it could have been drunken teenagers. Being careless drunks committing a minor crime, they could have left the beer bottles behind. They may have stolen Kurt’s suit of armor thinking it was something valuable or because they thought it was “cool” and took it just because. In any case, I think the scene was compromised, so any evidence collected from the car is contaminated and likely worthless.

In summation, I don’t see any evidence that would preclude Kurt’s death from being an accident.

While I think the cult aspects are compelling, I just see them as window dressing here. There are many things about the cult angle that don’t make sense.

- If Kurt was murdered, how did the killers create the injuries, cause the death and “stage” things in such a manner that they would be consistent with a fall from a cliff and seasoned investigators would be fooled in to ruling it an accident?

- If the car was staged to make it appear that Kurt had been drinking and being reckless that night, why leave behind the beer cans? The cans could contain incriminating evidence such as fingerprints or saliva. Also, no alcohol was found in Kurt's body when it was autopsied. Alcohol is easily detectable and the lack of it in his bloodstream, yet the discovery of the beer cans would look pretty darn suspicious.

- If Kurt was in fear for his life, as his anonymous friend suggested, why would he willingly go spend the weekend with Carrillo?

- If Carillo planned to kill Kurt as some sort of “sacrifice” why invite Kurt to stay at his apartment knowing full well that he would be the prime suspect?

Something else - I don’t know about you guys, but I just don’t see Carrillo as a murderer. I know that may seem laughable, but I’ve watched the segment probably a hundred times since the early nineties, and I’ve never gotten the “vibe” about Carrillo that I have about other suspects who proclaimed their innocence on UM. I think his explanations are sound and rational. He spoke about his religion and group and even permitted UM to film one of their meetings, why do all this if you have a something to hide? He doesn’t strike me as the arrogant sociopathic “I’m smarter than the cops” type either. I realize these are subjective observations on my part, but I figured it couldn’t hurt to throw them out there since we’re having this discussion.

I also think it is important to remember that at the time Kurt died and the UM segment produced and aired, the United States was still in the throes of “Satanic Panic”. There have been numerous studies conducted in the years since that have shown there is no basis in many of these beliefs and that the Satanic Panic era as a whole was a widespread case of mass hysteria. Unfortunately, I think that since Kurt was dabbling in witchcraft and other religions that we as outsiders still don’t have a firm grasp on, his death will always be synonymous with Satanism and the occult. However, there is not one shred of convincing or irrefutable proof that these allegations are true.
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Old 10-18-2011, 07:31 PM   #150
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That sounds convincing. I grew up and still live in Miami, by the way, so I know what you mean about the irresistible pull of the beach.
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Contact form on official Unsolved Mysteries site

Please note that their old mailing address and 1-800 phone number no longer work.


2) Where can I watch Unsolved Mysteries?

Unsolved Mysteries is available for streaming on Amazon Instant Video, YouTube and Hulu.


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