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Old 08-20-2014, 04:24 AM   #121
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I lean towards one or more of the Ramsey's being involved.

An intruder writes a ransom note. Then leaves the child not only inside the house, but in a room the maid didn't even know existed. It doesn't make much sense.
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Old 08-20-2014, 02:14 PM   #122
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It was not only the existence, but the content and placement of the note. It was rambling and contained many details specific to the family, including a nickname of John's an outsider wouldn't know, a reference to a movie the family is known to have just seen, and the exact amount of a bonus he had just received. Then it was placed on some back stairs rather than in any more likely place. The initials with which it was signed were even the first letters from passages in an open Bible at the home--not to mention the suspicious behavior of John, Patsy, Patsy's sister, and the older son saying the killer needed "forgiveness" among, oh, a million or so little things. One detective at the time said he'd never seen a murder fixed to look like a kidnapping in which the family was not involved. They just implicated and made life hell for a lot of innocent people.
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Old 08-20-2014, 04:56 PM   #123
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Originally Posted by Cori aka ChrisSCrush
It was not only the existence, but the content and placement of the note. It was rambling and contained many details specific to the family, including a nickname of John's an outsider wouldn't know, a reference to a movie the family is known to have just seen, and the exact amount of a bonus he had just received. Then it was placed on some back stairs rather than in any more likely place. The initials with which it was signed were even the first letters from passages in an open Bible at the home--not to mention the suspicious behavior of John, Patsy, Patsy's sister, and the older son saying the killer needed "forgiveness" among, oh, a million or so little things. One detective at the time said he'd never seen a murder fixed to look like a kidnapping in which the family was not involved. They just implicated and made life hell for a lot of innocent people.
I believe the letter ended S.B.T.C which may stand for Saved By The Cross,but I don't see how this ties John Ramsey to the murder of his daughter,and neither do I see a reference to the movie. Why was the note handwritten,which would have been risky,and why waste time with such a long ransom note? I go along with the Aphrodite Jones theory that Michael Helgoth was on the premises with an accomplice,who may later have shot him when the heat was turned up,but this again is just one more theory of many.http://youtu.be/QDbPrqEeQ34

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Old 08-21-2014, 01:48 AM   #124
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Here is a message board discussion about the movie reference(s). http://www.websleuths.com/forums/arc...p/t-42308.html
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Old 08-21-2014, 07:01 AM   #125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cori aka ChrisSCrush
Here is a message board discussion about the movie reference(s). http://www.websleuths.com/forums/arc...p/t-42308.html
It's true I'm on holiday at the moment,but I don't particularly have a desire to trawl through those threads you quote until September to find the specific reference.
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Old 08-21-2014, 01:36 PM   #126
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I'am on the parents are innocent ship, but I've just had a mad thought.

There was no DNA from John Ramsey found on his daughter, but then again it was him to picked her up from the basement and put her under/near the xmas tree and then picked her up to move her again. How can his DNA not be found on her? Can you really move a body twice with out getting a scrap of DNA on her?
I think they would be testing for DNA relative to bodily fluids and skin under nails etc. There might have been some transference of skin flakes(since we all shed so much all the time) and/or hair fibres from John as he picked up/carried his child, but if forensic investigators pulled mouth swabs and semen/blood samples from John and they didn't hit, I'm thinking that's the type of DNA that they would look for and didn't find.

Consider for instance, that we all secrete oils from our fingertips, which is what makes our fingerprints pop and leave prints but that level of secretion cannot be pulled from a dead body(not that I've ever heard of and definitely not back then, maybe if you've got your hands on them for a while, but the secretion would take an impossibly long time).

Transference of body particles is one thing but I'm thinking they'd be looking more for blood/semen/saliva-types of DNA to link and IMO, if there was anything they could've tied him to that body, they would've.

One interesting aspect of note is that technology has advanced so far since this happened. The things I learned in my forensics course during my undergrad would be much more advanced with regards to how the collect DNA, types of DNA, the machines we use and the levels of matches you can get and one has to think that if there is any remaining DNA evidence, they'd have given John's samples another shot to see if they hit... I wrote a term paper on the DNA work in the Wayne Williams/ Atlanta Child Killings and it's quite fascinating at what they used to connect Williams to SOME of the bodies through carpet fibres in his car/trunk, and we're talking minute-levels. When I look at that case, similarly feverish in media coverage and then comparatively look towards how hard the Boulder PD/DA went at the Ramseys, I'm of the belief that there wasn't any spark of Ramsey DNA to link them to the physical act back then and to this day. I could be mistaken here, but as far as DNA goes they were looking to indict the Ramseys and didn't invoke any DNA linkage in their charge, which is why they're still lurking on CODIS for a match.
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Old 08-21-2014, 01:43 PM   #127
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I think they would be testing for DNA relative to bodily fluids and skin under nails etc. There might have been some transference of skin flakes(since we all shed so much all the time) and/or hair fibres from John as he picked up/carried his child, but if forensic investigators pulled mouth swabs and semen/blood samples from John and they didn't hit, I'm thinking that's the type of DNA that they would look for and didn't find.

Consider for instance, that we all secrete oils from our fingertips, which is what makes our fingerprints pop and leave prints but that level of secretion cannot be pulled from a dead body(not that I've ever heard of and definitely not back then, maybe if you've got your hands on them for a while, but the secretion would take an impossibly long time).

Transference of body particles is one thing but I'm thinking they'd be looking more for blood/semen/saliva-types of DNA to link and IMO, if there was anything they could've tied him to that body, they would've.

One interesting aspect of note is that technology has advanced so far since this happened. The things I learned in my forensics course during my undergrad would be much more advanced with regards to how the collect DNA, types of DNA, the machines we use and the levels of matches you can get and one has to think that if there is any remaining DNA evidence, they'd have given John's samples another shot to see if they hit... I wrote a term paper on the DNA work in the Wayne Williams/ Atlanta Child Killings and it's quite fascinating at what they used to connect Williams to SOME of the bodies through carpet fibres in his car/trunk, and we're talking minute-levels. When I look at that case, similarly feverish in media coverage and then comparatively look towards how hard the Boulder PD/DA went at the Ramseys, I'm of the belief that there wasn't any spark of Ramsey DNA to link them to the physical act back then and to this day. I could be mistaken here, but as far as DNA goes they were looking to indict the Ramseys and didn't invoke any DNA linkage in their charge, which is why they're still lurking on CODIS for a match.
In fact when I think of it the Ramseys were treated shamefully by the world's media,and if the cancer didn't get Patsy in the end the insinuations and innuendo might well have done.
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Old 08-25-2014, 11:53 AM   #128
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I didn't read every single page, yet..but what about Jon Bennet's saying that "Santa was planning a secret visit" the night before? Was the Santa at the party ever interviewed?
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Old 08-25-2014, 01:30 PM   #129
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I didn't read every single page, yet..but what about Jon Bennet's saying that "Santa was planning a secret visit" the night before? Was the Santa at the party ever interviewed?
It had been open house only days before at one of the Ramsey's parties,and I had always thought that this might have been a kidnapping gone wrong with Michael Helgoth and an unknown accomplice as perpetrators.
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Old 08-27-2014, 02:14 PM   #130
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve_uk
It had been open house only days before at one of the Ramsey's parties,and I had always thought that this might have been a kidnapping gone wrong with Michael Helgoth and an unknown accomplice as perpetrators.

Ok thanks. I just started getting an interest in this case. The whole pubic hair that doesn't match the parents or Burke, causes me to think the parents didn't do it. But again, I just started touching up on this case.
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Old 11-10-2014, 10:54 PM   #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RebZissel
The key to this case, in my humble opinion, is that someone told Jonbenet that Santa Claus will come to her for a special visit on December 25th at night. A "special visit" the night after Santa delivered presents.

This was told by Jonbenet to her friend and the friend's mother. When the mother tried to explain that Santa already visited, Jonbenet went on to explain that this was a secret, special visit just for her.


Who told her that? I believe if we ever find out, we will know who killed her.

I also believe that this disproves the theory that her mother accidentally killed her because of bed wetting in a freak accident caused by rage.

Someone planned to kill her and told her about a secret visit by Santa Claus the day after Christmas Eve. I want to know who was the person who did this.
This is one especially weird and strange detail in an overall weird and strange case. Suspicion immediately fell on the man who played Santa. Creepy coincidences connected him to details of the crime, and he made at least one strange statement afterwards, but was somehow cleared--at least, the stranger DNA did not match him and possibly other things cleared him (I am not versed in every detail). Is it proven that JonBenét's friend and her mother truly made these statements (that is, did they give testimony in the investigation) or did the Ramseys merely claim they said this in order to cast suspicion off themselves?

The DNA is weird, too--it matched none of the Ramseys and other suspects, one was dry (touch) DNA and the other was wet (sneeze or something) DNA, I believe one was on the long johns and the other on the underwear (matching each other but no one who has ever been identified)--which, unless there was some way of cross contamination, were only together on JonBenét's cold, dead body!
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Old 11-11-2014, 05:39 AM   #132
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cori aka ChrisSCrush
Is it proven that JonBenét's friend and her mother truly made these statements (that is, did they give testimony in the investigation) or did the Ramseys merely claim they said this in order to cast suspicion off themselves?
Being that you are a fervent believer in the Ramsey's guilt, I'm not at all surprised you would insinuate such a thing, but in any event, I'll shoot that theory down immediately. The woman's name is Barbara Kostanick and she testified to the Boulder Police Department about the Santa Claus visit. The BPD were uninterested because it didn't fit in with their "Ramseys did it" beliefs.

Proof is at the top of this page:
http://www.acandyrose.com/s-neighbor...-kostanick.htm
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Old 11-11-2014, 04:20 PM   #133
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wiseguy182
Being that you are a fervent believer in the Ramsey's guilt, I'm not at all surprised you would insinuate such a thing, but in any event, I'll shoot that theory down immediately. The woman's name is Barbara Kostanick and she testified to the Boulder Police Department about the Santa Claus visit. The BPD were uninterested because it didn't fit in with their "Ramseys did it" beliefs.

Proof is at the top of this page:
http://www.acandyrose.com/s-neighbor...-kostanick.htm
My belief that the Ramseys did it is fairly fervent but not absolute and is based largely on the ransom note and partly on their suspicious behavior. If it wasn't for that one detail of the ransom note, the whole thing would be practically a free-for-all. Anyone in full possession of the facts has never identified the guilty party because there simply is no one theory that fits all the facts--to the point that the poor slob who solves it will have to explain away everything that seems not to fit. The best key may lie with the brother who may talk after the father passes away, or he may not, as that would incriminate anyone else who knowingly helped cover up as accessory after the fact--even if he were blameless.

About the secret visit from Santa--some people believe it happened and JonBenét let him in. That's why no sign of forced entry. They did determine that "the man who refused to play Santa ever again" not only left no DNA, but couldn't have climbed in and out of that basement window.

About the DNA thing--I thought the underwear were unwashed out of a brand-new package and they found the SAME DNA in the unused pairs remaining in the package. I've never been able to find much on this or on WHO the DNA would indicate--if it was even complete enough to show racial/ethnic origins! Is it the DNA of an Asian or Hispanic individual most likely to work in clothing manufacturing but would clear EVERY DAMN SUSPECT THEY HAVE? As, as far as I know, everyone they looked at is white? But, supposedly that wouldn't explain the DNA on the long johns, unless there was some means of transference from the underwear that they haven't hit on yet.

As for the bedwetting theory, I think the autopsy said there were urine stains on the long underwear but her bladder was still partly full? Would have to check that.

And, yes, there was NO SHORTAGE OF SUSPECTS. People tried to frame each other. One man said he had a tape of his sicko friend sobbing, confessing he had seriously injured a child, but I don't know if he ever produced the tape. You'd think the police would at least look at it in case some OTHER child was hurt around that time. Also, there was a man who passed away and a pair of the kind of shoes in question was found among his belongings but never determined to belong to him--that could have been a plant. And the woman who said her husband came home at an odd hour absolutely covered with dirt and spouted off that "they'll never find out" who did it when the story came on the news.

Has the teddy bear been mentioned ever again? JonBenét's aunt (Patsy's sister) claimed a teddy bear the family had never seen before appeared in JonBenét's room that night with a note to her from an unidentified sender. If the parents did this, they'd have had to scramble to find and place such a thing (and they probably sat up half the night writing the ransom note and wouldn't have thought of this), or they'd have had to DONE IT BEFOREHAND PLANNING TO KILL HER! What's more there is the unsettling detail that the scream the neighbor heard can be heard from the basement but not the upstairs, which blows the theory that she was unconscious when carried down there which is central to the bedwetting theory. I can hardly believe either of these things, sooooo.....
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Old 11-11-2014, 04:25 PM   #134
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RebZissel
I have always been curious about the Japanese student from the University of Colorado who took the kids to school.
If he was looked at, I will have to take it back about all the suspects being white. And the plot thickens....
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Old 11-12-2014, 12:23 AM   #135
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Originally Posted by RebZissel
Cori,

Lou Smith uncovered something the Boulder PD missed. A stun gun was used to knock Jonbenet out. Also, it could have been someone she recognized who told her Santa was in the basement.
Was this EVER proven? All the detective proved was that marks on her body (in distance apart and general appearance) matched a certain style of stun gun--NOT that that was definitely used!

Quote:
Originally Posted by RebZissel
It is possible that no one heard anything.
It is possible that no one in the house did, again depending on who you believe and what you believe. A neighbor claimed to have heard a scream that night, that was "a little girl's scream." Regardless of whether you believe the theories of Andrew Louis "Lou" Smit, he PROVED that such a scream could be clearly heard if made from the basement, but from JonBenét's room the sound would be so faint the neighbor could hardly have noticed it. So who would make such a scream? Patsy, if she walked in on the killer (who, had it been anyone other than John, would have killed HER--not to mention, what would she even be doing up unless she knew something was going on?) Burke? Or JonBenét herself? That's about it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RebZissel
Jonbenet also ate pineapples shortly before she was killed. Could this have been one of the people who worked for her parents? Someone who was familiar to Jonbenet? I believe so.
No, a bowl with pineapple chunks in it with Patsy's and Burke's fingerprints on it was in the kitchen, and JonBenét had something in her stomach too far gone to prove it was pineapple chunks, but its presence was supposed to show she had eaten at some point after the party, when Patsy said she put her straight to bed after the party.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RebZissel
Doors and windows were unlocked. The Ramseys, like most wealthy suburban Americans, sadly do not lock their doors because they think crime only happens in cities or the slums. Foolish on their part.
VERY foolish, but since it isn't proven who did it or how that person got in, it doesn't prove it has anything to do with the crime.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RebZissel
The basement window was broken. Anyone could have entered regardless.
Anyone physically able. Authorities proved "Santa" wasn't. They also harassed a man so far gone with AIDS he could barely get around, much less pull off a crime so physically demanding and exit through the window as it was conjectured the killer did.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RebZissel
The ransom note was too long and relaxed for it to have been written after the crime. You must remember one thing: this was not a planned murder, but rather a botched kidnapping. Jonbenet came back to consciousness after the stun gun was used and struggled with her abductor who tried to put her in a suitcase. He killed her out of fear that she would scream and someone would have detected him.
I put a lot of stock into the statement of someone in law enforcement who said they had never seen a murder fixed to look like a kidnapping, in which the guilty party was not someone in the family. If this was the case here, it just might be the first one since the Lindbergh baby (thought to be an intended kidnapping where the kidnapper accidentally dropped the child, killing it.) The suitcase could have been intended by someone in the house, to transport the body following the crime, and make it look like a kidnapping. If the Ramseys were guilty, why did John give away the position of the body, which no one else would have found (considering the location of the room and the door leading into it.) Your guess is as good as mine, but John is said to have exclaimed as if he saw something at a point when no one could have seen anything in that dark room! Showing maybe he already knew she was in there!

Quote:
Originally Posted by RebZissel
Her bladder was full. She did not wet the bed that night.
Jolly interesting, especially considering it often empties itself upon death.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RebZissel
The Teddy Bear- I have heard of this. All I know is that someone told her beforehand that a secret visitor is coming. This completely exonerates the Ramsey parents in my opinion.
The teddy bear is just weird. The multitude of sometimes contradictory clues is what makes this a perfect murder--not planning on anyone's part. One hell of a lucky killer walked!

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