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Old 06-04-2011, 12:12 PM   #31
bluejazz87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by egswanso
I dismiss the whole thing because it's absurd and illogical.

What is the purpose of the "secret returnee" program? The family claims it's because the government doesn't want to admit POWs might have been left behind. It is odd, then, that:

1. The Government told the family that there were sighting of Curt after the
Paris Peace Accords.

2. Curt's name (with thousands of others) is on the 1991 "Last Known Alive"
list.

The sister's sightings are as credible as any other eyewitness sightings, i.e., not very. Did she see someone who might have resembled her brother? Sure. Was it him, very unlikely.
What was illogical was what happened to the family in terms of being followed, phone called and forced to sign certain papers. As for the sightings, I think the sister would recognize her own brother. She could have just been seeing things, but it happened in three different locations apparently...and I guess her children even recognized their uncle.

I would probably dismiss the entire thing too if it wasn't for all of the strange incidents that happened to the family. Sure they could be lying about everything, but I don't see what the motive would be. Wouldn't get them any closer.
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Old 06-04-2011, 04:03 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluejazz87
What was illogical was what happened to the family in terms of being followed, phone called and forced to sign certain papers. As for the sightings, I think the sister would recognize her own brother. She could have just been seeing things, but it happened in three different locations apparently...and I guess her children even recognized their uncle.

I would probably dismiss the entire thing too if it wasn't for all of the strange incidents that happened to the family. Sure they could be lying about everything, but I don't see what the motive would be. Wouldn't get them any closer.
If any of that even happened, of course.

Curt Borton was a pretty regular looking guy; nothing particularly unique about him; I see a couple people who look like him almost daily. IMO, neither of the pictures shown in the segment look much like him.

The father can't read, so he doesn't know what he signed and the whole story just doesn't make sense. Why would DOD personnel stalk someone to make them sign something? The Gov't doesn't need the family's permission to declare a soldier dead, they just can. Curt is still on the MIA lists as well and the official (gov't issued!) last known to be alive list, so again, the family's story just isn't consistent with reality.

The "sightings" also occurred 15-20 years after the sister last saw him, he'd look a little different, especially after some time in a VC camp. I don't quite know how children who never met someone would "recognize" him. Of all the supposed "incidents," I believe the sister truly does BELIEVE she saw her brother, I just find it highly unlikely she did.

I can't say they are lying, but why would they - the same reason psychics lie, people telling ghost stories lie, and countless others lied on Unsolved Mysteries - publicity and money. At best, maybe they thought the publicity of the "incidents" would get the gov't to look into the matter. To be honest, my belief that they are being disingenuous is much higher since they apparently won't cooperate in giving a DNA sample to match to the bones identified as Curt's. Want an answer? There it is.
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Old 06-04-2011, 09:44 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by egswanso
If any of that even happened, of course.

Curt Borton was a pretty regular looking guy; nothing particularly unique about him; I see a couple people who look like him almost daily. IMO, neither of the pictures shown in the segment look much like him.

The father can't read, so he doesn't know what he signed and the whole story just doesn't make sense. Why would DOD personnel stalk someone to make them sign something? The Gov't doesn't need the family's permission to declare a soldier dead, they just can. Curt is still on the MIA lists as well and the official (gov't issued!) last known to be alive list, so again, the family's story just isn't consistent with reality.

The "sightings" also occurred 15-20 years after the sister last saw him, he'd look a little different, especially after some time in a VC camp. I don't quite know how children who never met someone would "recognize" him. Of all the supposed "incidents," I believe the sister truly does BELIEVE she saw her brother, I just find it highly unlikely she did.

I can't say they are lying, but why would they - the same reason psychics lie, people telling ghost stories lie, and countless others lied on Unsolved Mysteries - publicity and money. At best, maybe they thought the publicity of the "incidents" would get the gov't to look into the matter. To be honest, my belief that they are being disingenuous is much higher since they apparently won't cooperate in giving a DNA sample to match to the bones identified as Curt's. Want an answer? There it is.
LOL the government could just lie about the DNA samples. I don't know, it seems like you're assuming the family is lying from the get go and for some reason already branding them as attention seekers. Sure they could be, but at the same time I don't think there is enough there to automatically discount the family...just because the government says "this and that". (because the government never lies about anything right?) Everything the family went through could have been coincidental sure, but you should at least consider the possibility that they are telling the truth. For everything that may support the side of the military's accounts, there is just as much unusual circumstances against the military's word reported by the family. It's almost a case of "he said/she said"...which is why I can't discount either side.

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Old 06-04-2011, 10:37 PM   #34
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Of course they want attention. For their son's case. These aren't conspiracy theory people looking to sell a book or a story. There's too many things that family went through that they can't all be dismissed as "coincidence." Considering I don't believe Unsolved Mysteries paid people to come on the show (someone correct me if I'm wrong) wanting money and negative attention is far more farfetched in this case.
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Old 06-06-2011, 08:10 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluejazz87
LOL the government could just lie about the DNA samples. I don't know, it seems like you're assuming the family is lying from the get go and for some reason already branding them as attention seekers. Sure they could be, but at the same time I don't think there is enough there to automatically discount the family...just because the government says "this and that". (because the government never lies about anything right?) Everything the family went through could have been coincidental sure, but you should at least consider the possibility that they are telling the truth. For everything that may support the side of the military's accounts, there is just as much unusual circumstances against the military's word reported by the family. It's almost a case of "he said/she said"...which is why I can't discount either side.
I didn't set out with the notion that the family is lying (and as I said before, mistake explains some of the "incidents"), but when everything they say doesn't make sense and is inconsistent with verifiable information, it becomes much more then "he said/she said"

If you want to believe that the Gov't is engaging in a huge conspiracy that secretly freed an ordinary grunt from the VC and snuck him back into the country, for reasons and motives unknown, and that same conspiracy is hiding him from his family (but giving him freedom of movement), again, for reasons and motives unknown, hey, that's your right.
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Old 06-06-2011, 09:08 AM   #36
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And just to be clear, I have no problem believing the following:

1. Borton could have been captured by the VC on his initial mission (he could have also been killed, but the recon mission to find him and his platoon should have found the bodies in such a case)

2. Borton was held in a VC camp during the war and was not released pursuant to the Paris Peace Accords.

3. Borton remained alive into the 1980s (given conditions at VC prisoner camps, I can't see anyone there surviving more then 10-15 years; and at some point prior to normalization, you'd imagine they would have just been killed, if they had).

What I can't believe, based on the evidence presented, is that Borton, or anyone else similarly situated, was a "secret returnee" There were three pieces of evidence presented:

1. His father claims he was pressured by the Gov't into signing a document stating Curt was dead.
2. His sister claims she saw him in the Washington D.C. area
3. His cousin claims his social security number was "invalid"

To each:

1. The father can't read, so he didn't know what he signed. He doesn't know where the "agents" were actually from, but they did not act like official gov't representatives. Curt WAS NOT declared dead and is on the official "Last known to be alive" list, released by the gov't in 1991.

2. The sister never spoke with or approached her "brother" A license plate she copied down traced to someone else, who was not Curt and had no connection to him.

3. The social security number (492-48-6171) appears in every public database, issued to Curt, with his information. You can actually order the original SS-5 form for him at this site: http://ssdi.rootsweb.ancestry.com/

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. That burden just isn't met here, IMO.
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Old 06-11-2011, 12:35 AM   #37
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I always wondered about the sighting of "Curt" in the red car. They traced the license plate to a guy who knew nothing of him. Couldn't Curt's sister have met with him so she could say, "Oops, you looked like my brother but you're not, sorry" OR she could at least find out who borrowed his car that day?

Was she making it up, did she make a mistake about the license #, was it honestly a guy who looked like him, did someone loan his car to a guy who looked like Curt, or was it really him? I tend to think it wasn't him, but who was he? Was the car owner the guy who talked to her?

I wish I knew the answers!
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Old 06-12-2011, 10:08 AM   #38
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Quote:
3. Borton remained alive into the 1980s (given conditions at VC prisoner camps, I can't see anyone there surviving more then 10-15 years; and at some point prior to normalization, you'd imagine they would have just been killed, if they had).


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“USA” were 12 feet tall and together the 3 letters stretched 37 feet across the dry paddy, and the highly classified “Walking K” Escape and Evasion symbol beneath the “USA” was 24 feet tall and 19 feet across. DOD experts told you that this “USA Walking K” pilot distress code “must be considered valid until proven otherwise.”
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Old 07-04-2011, 05:29 PM   #39
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This has always been strange to me. Looking online, the sister moved to California after the segment was taped and her "brother" was there...creepy.

Why follow the cousin? I notice he was in military fatigues. Connection?

Where did the check come from??
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Old 07-08-2011, 10:20 AM   #40
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Plus the family got a check for 43k for Curts father signing a form. The whole story is odd. After a few sightings you'd think his sister would try to talk to him. I know she didn't because she claimed she was told he was dangerous but still one of the sightings looked to be in a public park area. At least yell from a few feet away and say "Hi Curt" and see what his reply would be.
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Old 07-08-2011, 03:54 PM   #41
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I liked the part in this story where they had the guy who played Brad Bishop hold a gun to their cousin but since he didn't want to be IDed the conversation sounded off
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Old 11-15-2011, 06:42 PM   #42
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I watched this segment for the first time today. I have no idea what to make of the encounters with both "Robert" and the "military men" who kept confronting the father in public places. Weird case all around, I would love to know what really happened.
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Old 11-17-2011, 12:53 PM   #43
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Come on people, Curt Borton is dead. He was KIA most likely. The two pictures shown in the segment look like Asian men and look nothing like Curt at all. He was a PFC, why would the government waste time and money even having a "secret returnee" program (presumebaly to hide their embarassment about not bringing everyone home), only to continue to hide these people that were freed and returned to the U.S.?! Doesn't make any sense. It wasn't like Curt was a Colonel, he was a PFC. As someone else pointed out, the Vietnam war has been over for decades now, why hasn't Curt reached out to his family since the UM broadcast? And I find it very hard to believe that if the government is telling you your brother died in Vietnam, yet you see him in the flesh 15+ years later in a public park, you do not attempt to approach him in any way, shape, or form. In her interview the sister says it was because he was described as "dangerous", but I think she may have had a fear that she'd be embarassed (or be forced to accept Curt's death) by running up and hugging a man who is not related to her at all.

I think this is just a case of a family not accepting the harsh reality and continuing to hold on to every single shred of hope they can that their loved one is still alive.
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Old 11-17-2011, 04:00 PM   #44
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Quote:
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Come on people, Curt Borton is dead. He was KIA most likely. The two pictures shown in the segment look like Asian men and look nothing like Curt at all. He was a PFC, why would the government waste time and money even having a "secret returnee" program (presumebaly to hide their embarassment about not bringing everyone home), only to continue to hide these people that were freed and returned to the U.S.?! Doesn't make any sense. It wasn't like Curt was a Colonel, he was a PFC. As someone else pointed out, the Vietnam war has been over for decades now, why hasn't Curt reached out to his family since the UM broadcast? And I find it very hard to believe that if the government is telling you your brother died in Vietnam, yet you see him in the flesh 15+ years later in a public park, you do not attempt to approach him in any way, shape, or form. In her interview the sister says it was because he was described as "dangerous", but I think she may have had a fear that she'd be embarassed (or be forced to accept Curt's death) by running up and hugging a man who is not related to her at all.

I think this is just a case of a family not accepting the harsh reality and continuing to hold on to every single shred of hope they can that their loved one is still alive.
I think you are absolutely right. I too felt that the two photos they presented looked nothing like Curt and looked like Asian men. They didn't even share his eyebrows and hairline. I don't even think the two men in the photos are the same man. Also, has anyone noticed how people do not always look the way they do in photos? Some people just look different in a picture. Or you might see a photo of someone somewhere and think, "that looks like so-and-so", when you know perfectly well that isn't them. I don't know if that makes any sense, but my point is that people can look different in photos than in real life.

If there is one thing I have learned from watching a lot of UM, it is that parents of missing/suicide/whatever kids can become very delusional about what happened to them or what they did. I was just reading about the case of Amy St. Laurent (not on UM) who's killer confessed to his mother; the mother then told a friend about the confession, then told a grand jury about the confession, yet now claims that her son is innocent. Crazy! And I'll never forget about seeing Diane Broadbeck's mother on UM who swore up and down that her daughter would NEVER leave willingly with a convicted killer, yet that's exactly what happened. It comes to a point where you really just have to take what these family members say with a grain of salt. They are convinced of whatever they want to believe, many to the point of obsession. I think this case is a perfect example of how delusional a family can become over an idea.
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Old 11-18-2011, 12:53 AM   #45
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And let's face it, some people just have "common" faces. I was at the doctor's office with my son once and saw a picture in a magazine of a boy that looked just like my son. I showed the nurse, basically just said, "Look at this picture" and she said, "Oh my goodness, another (son's name)."

I've also seen color, high quality pictures of strangers that look JUST LIKE my daughter. That's no big deal, since I know where she is, but if she were missing I'd be convinced that the pictures were of her.

I saw a toddler once who looked just like my best friend's baby, to the point that I asked her mother, "Is her name (friend's name)?" I thought she could have been a new babysitter, the 2 children looked THAT MUCH alike.
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