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Old 01-17-2010, 02:37 PM   #136
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Meanwhile I have seen the W5 segment. First the police think it is her (ex) husband. After a while they think it's Cindy herself. Then when they find her car with blood on the door, they think it's fowl play. When they find her they think it's her again, this time succeeded and killed herself. Strange way of thinking the police handled here.
I think in any other case when they find a woman in a position like this they immediately would think it was a homicide. Did the police have tunnel vision here? They couldn't find anything so it must have been her?
I agree with Ozzie Kaban in the segment.

I read this whole thread and I just remembered that purplerose asked about similar cases when the family thinks it's murder and the police thinks it's a suicide. I saw two weeks ago or something like that a 48 hours mystery segment about Col. Shue. You can watch this segment on cbs.com under videos and then click the link on the left: 48 hours mystery. Scroll a bit down and you find it.
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Old 01-18-2010, 05:27 PM   #137
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I also read here that the person responsible had to have a lot of time at his hands. To follow and stalk and torment her around the clock. That can easily have been handled to hire people to do the dirty work for him or most of it.
1. You don't think it would be a little expensive to hire two or more people for that long a time?

2. What "for-hire" person would take multiple jobs on the same target? If you were a "for hire killer" wouldn;t you consider this a "high risk" contract?

3. Wouldn;t someone who has resources hire thugs at that price be fairly easy to find? We're talking about someone who is either in organized crime or is a millionaire. Did her ex-husband fit into any of those categories?

Quote:
As for the mentioned phonecalls that can be listened to at purplerose's site when some think it is a woman. Maybe a woman was hired to make those calls
1. Your insunuiating potentially 3 people were hired. And your also assuming this "woman" has no desire to come forward considering that she was not privy to murder. At that point she was just part of a harassment campaign. Once Cindy dies, she knows that her client is a murderer.

2. Why does it have to be a woman? You can splice recordings like in the L'enfant case?

Quote:
People mentioned there was no evidence any other person or more than one person did this to her. Even after purplerose mentioned there was evidence.
I could be wrong but I thought the only evidence was eyewitness accounts and the dead cats?

Quote:
Ruth seems a plain 'simpler' woman to me then Cindy seems to me. If Ruth was able to find out she was her own tormenter than Cindy could for certain find that out íf she was indeed her own tormenter.
Not necessarily. Perhaps Cindy isn;t as strong a person as Ruth. Perhaps her madness went to far. It seemed at the end that she was not doing so well mentally.

Quote:
I read this whole thread and I just remembered that purplerose asked about similar cases when the family thinks it's murder and the police thinks it's a suicide. I saw two weeks ago or something like that a 48 hours mystery segment about Col. Shue. You can watch this segment on cbs.com under videos and then click the link on the left: 48 hours mystery. Scroll a bit down and you find it.
Murder mistaken for suicide happens all the time. Epecially in prisons.

But this case is not just a simple suicide...it's a massive prolonged harassment by an "unseen attacker".

Quote:
I think in any other case when they find a woman in a position like this they immediately would think it was a homicide. Did the police have tunnel vision here?
What evidence was their of foul play? I personally would come to the same conclusion of suicide based on the crime scene and the backstory of Cindy.

Quote:
I agree with Ozzie Kaban in the segment.
Keep in mind that Ozzie Kaban is/was an employee of Cindy James.

Quote:
I also did not read from purplerose that mental illness runs in her family. And if no one in the family showed mental illnesses then it is not (very much) likely she developed one without trauma's. Which she seems not to have had until the torment start.
I'm by no means a psychologist, but I'm pretty sure you don;t need to have psychosis in your family in order to develop it. Much the same as you can have no history of diabetes in your family and develop the disease.


Quote:
Sometimes the evidence lies in what is NOT there. Like a missing syringe. If she did this to herself that syringe could not be far from where she was found. Morphine is strong stuff. You will rapid feel the influence of that. And she had high doses of that stuff in her blood so it would have kicked in quite hard. If she did this she would have know that and could not have injected it far from the place she was found because she would also need a certain amount of time to tie herself up the way she was found. To me it is therefor, among other things, not likely she commit suicide.
1. Are you sure this is the only way it could be done. Your sure you've exhausted all other possible ways those drugs could wind up in her body?

2. Perhaps the syringe was stolen by a drug addict who happened upon the body.

3. Were were the needle marks on Cindy's body?

Last edited by Mastermind; 01-18-2010 at 06:00 PM.
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Old 01-18-2010, 07:46 PM   #138
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I appreciate that you took the time to react on my thinking of the case.

1. It would be expensive but if the person who hired had more than enough mony, it would be for that person no problem at all. Maybe not even an amount he would 'miss' anyway. The stalking and tormenting was so severe that it must have been almost as important for that person als food and beverages.

2. Maybe someone with an addiction. The high risk would be taken because the addiction is stronger. One option.

3. Maybe but who says he let them live after 'the job was done'? Just a possibility.
You name the ex husband but who says he was the one behind this. Maybe we need to look in a whole other direction. Someone with a lot to loose if Cindy knew something very severe or important about him and wanted to be a whistleblower. Was it even a him? Can't it be a woman behind all this that wanted to do this to Cindy?

===
1. I assume people are hired. I don't have an exact number in mind. It could be one. It could be two. I don't know. f it was indeed a woman who called, Cindy's death is already ruled as a suicide and maybe that assumed woman caller is scared for her own life and because they did not call it a murder left it like it is. No punishment from the hirer and no punishment of the law. And not everyone has enough of a conscience to overcome that.

2. It does not need to be a woman. My reaction was just about someone mentioning it sounded like a woman and therefor it had to be Cindy. I thought that did not necessarily need to be true. It can be a man. Sure. Maybe one of the hired men. One of the persons that is seen by witnesses. Technics can alter voices. Agree.
====

According to purplerose there was more evidence than already mentioned her or elsewhere so maybe there was more than just eyewitnesses and dead cats?

The case of Col. Shue seemed also not simple. Lot of questions and situations unanswered. That isn't solved either, I think.


The police thought it was foul play when they found her car abandoned with blood on the door. That's the foul play mentioned. I don't know for sure if there is foul play. I assume but it is just a theory. I believe that theory more than that Cindy might done this all herself. I would come with a different conclusion than you on the same events.


yes, Ozzie was an employee of Cindy but he was only hired because there was a lot wrong in Cindy's life. And at first he wanted to make sure she did not do it herself. If he was for example only in for the money wouldn't he 'believe' her from the start no matter what?


In most cases disorders do not develop just like that. Or it runs in the family, or she endured severe trauma's or it was a severe chemical unbalance or a combination. It just does not develop like other fysical diseases can just like that. And even fysical diseases can have some sort of cause. In those cases certain 'requirements' have to be met.

=====
1. What other ways are there. You either snort it, smoke it, inject it of someone put it in your food or drinks. I am not quite sure what you mean here or which direction you're at.

2. If it was a drugarea it is possible a junkie could have stolen a syringe if it was there. Why not. This case is already full of weird, unexplainable or otherwise to name events.

3. The needlemark on Cindy's body was at the elbow area but then on the inner side of the arm. I believe it was the left arm.
====
Another thing. If she was laying there for two weeks wouldn't anybody have smelled a body ws there? It seems to be a very distinctive smell.
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Old 01-18-2010, 07:51 PM   #139
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Originally Posted by Shahla
I appreciate that you took the time to react on my thinking of the case.

1. It would be expensive but if the person who hired had more than enough mony, it would be for that person no problem at all. Maybe not even an amount he would 'miss' anyway. The stalking and tormenting was so severe that it must have been almost as important for that person as food and beverages.

2. Maybe someone with an addiction. The high risk would be taken because the addiction is stronger. One option.

3. Maybe but who says he let them live after 'the job was done'? Just a possibility.
You name the ex husband but who says he was the one behind this. Maybe we need to look in a whole other direction. Someone with a lot to loose if Cindy knew something very severe or important about him and wanted to be a whistleblower. Was it even a him? Can't it be a woman behind all this that wanted to do this to Cindy?

===
1. I assume people are hired. I don't have an exact number in mind. It could be one. It could be two. I don't know. f it was indeed a woman who called, Cindy's death is already ruled as a suicide and maybe that assumed woman caller is scared for her own life and because they did not call it a murder left it like it is. No punishment from the hirer and no punishment of the law. And not everyone has enough of a conscience to overcome that.

2. It does not need to be a woman. My reaction was just about someone mentioning it sounded like a woman and therefor it had to be Cindy. I thought that did not necessarily need to be true. It can be a man. Sure. Maybe one of the hired men. One of the persons that is seen by witnesses. Technics can alter voices. Agree.
====

According to purplerose there was more evidence than already mentioned here or elsewhere so maybe there was more than just eyewitnesses and dead cats?

The case of Col. Shue seemed also not simple. Lot of questions and situations unanswered. That isn't solved either, I think.


The police thought it was foul play when they found her car abandoned with blood on the door. That's the foul play mentioned. I don't know for sure if there is foul play. I assume but it is just a theory. I believe that theory more than that Cindy might done this all herself. I would come with a different conclusion than you on the same events.


yes, Ozzie was an employee of Cindy but he was only hired because there was a lot wrong in Cindy's life. And at first he wanted to make sure she did not do it herself. If he was for example only in for the money wouldn't he 'believe' her from the start no matter what?


In most cases disorders do not develop just like that. Or it runs in the family, or she endured severe trauma's or it was a severe chemical unbalance or a combination. It just does not develop like other fysical diseases can just like that. And even fysical diseases can have some sort of cause. In those cases certain 'requirements' have to be met.

=====
1. What other ways are there. You either snort it, smoke it, inject it of someone put it in your food or drinks. I am not quite sure what you mean here or which direction you're at.

2. If it was a drugarea it is possible a junkie could have stolen a syringe if it was there. Why not. This case is already full of weird, unexplainable or otherwise to name events.

3. The needlemark on Cindy's body was at the elbow area but then on the inner side of the arm. I believe it was the left arm.
====
Another thing. If she was laying there for two weeks wouldn't anybody have smelled a body ws there? It seems to be a very distinctive smell.
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Old 01-18-2010, 07:53 PM   #140
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Oops, I just wanted to edit some words but instead of edit I chose quote...
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Old 01-19-2010, 03:38 PM   #141
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1. I assume people are hired. I don't have an exact number in mind. It could be one. It could be two. I don't know. f it was indeed a woman who called, Cindy's death is already ruled as a suicide and maybe that assumed woman caller is scared for her own life and because they did not call it a murder left it like it is. No punishment from the hirer and no punishment of the law. And not everyone has enough of a conscience to overcome that.

2. It does not need to be a woman. My reaction was just about someone mentioning it sounded like a woman and therefor it had to be Cindy. I thought that did not necessarily need to be true. It can be a man. Sure. Maybe one of the hired men. One of the persons that is seen by witnesses. Technics can alter voices. Agree.



Quote:
Someone with a lot to loose if Cindy knew something very severe or important about him and wanted to be a whistleblower. Was it even a him? Can't it be a woman behind all this that wanted to do this to Cindy?

1. It should be pointed out that according to Cindy's family she always referred to her attacker as he. Not they. Not she.

2. If cindy was a whitsleblower there has to be someone that she is whistleblowing to. Where is that person? It's not the police. No reporter has come through. Why was Cindy not testafiying or part of some deposition?

3. Why would a criminal conspiracy do such acts over such a long period of time to silence one person. They drew attention to Cindy by the whole compaign to begin with. Why do all these acts over all these years and then finally kill her? If there trying to silence her, why did they continune the acts even though she hasn;t revealed her attacker. That would seem to mean she is complying with the threats. They would not do a harassment campaign. When the police came involved, why continue with the acts once it became obvious that the police had no suspect? Continuing the attacks just invites more of a chance of getting caught for the very act your trying to

4. There has been ZERO evidence of Cindy being involved in anything remotely complex that would involve someone needing to silence her.

5. Cindy was never shy about calling the police. To our knowledge she never refused their assistance. She apparently was not afraid about getting the police involved. She was also not shy about giving the guys motive. Which she gave as "he wants to scare me to death. That's what he said to me". She was only reluctant to reveal the identity of the attacker. She 's scared to reveal the attacker, but not scared enough to involved the police who could find the identity of the attacker on their own.

Quote:
2. Maybe someone with an addiction. The high risk would be taken because the addiction is stronger. One option.
This attacker is too skilled and too knowlegeable about surveillance and tracking to be that desperate. This would have to be a professional to not be caught doing these many acts.

Quote:
Maybe but who says he let them live after 'the job was done'? Just a possibility.
1.That would involve other assasins, hence increasing the cost of this harrasment campaign.

2.Why does he have to kill the attackers? The police haven't found any suspects? The murder is a suicide.

3. Murdering hitmen is not a healthy way to live life. The only people who murder hitman are organized crime, police, terrorists or intelligence organizations.


Quote:
The case of Col. Shue seemed also not simple. Lot of questions and situations unanswered. That isn't solved either, I think.
Colonel Shue was in the military, which much like being a cop, being involved in drugs, being a politician lend themselves to being a victim of foul play and conspiracy. You should always be suspicious of of the death of any military person.

Cindy James was a nurse and worked with kids.

Apples and oranges.

Quote:
Another thing. If she was laying there for two weeks wouldn't anybody have smelled a body ws there? It seems to be a very distinctive smell.
I could be wrong, but wasn;t her body found outside in the brush? I don;t think I could tell the difference between a decomposing body from car engine fumes, garbage, raccoons, mold or fungus?
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Old 01-23-2010, 12:32 PM   #142
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Quote:2. If cindy was a whitsleblower there has to be someone that she is whistleblowing to. Where is that person? It's not the police. No reporter has come through. Why was Cindy not testafiying or part of some deposition?

She could have been deciding to be one but had not acted on it, so the delicate information was still hidden.

Quote:3. Why would a criminal conspiracy do such acts over such a long period of time to silence one person.

Maybe it was fun to torment her?

Quote:They drew attention to Cindy by the whole compaign to begin with.

They drew it before and realised she could become a big problem.

Quote:Why do all these acts over all these years and then finally kill her?

Maybe it was not supposed to end in death and accidentally ended one day in death. Like giving her too much morphine. Or maybe the person behind it was finished with her. 'The game' bored him eventually.

Quote:If there trying to silence her, why did they continune the acts even though she hasn;t revealed her attacker.

To scare her to death, she said that herself one time and you wrote it yourself at point 5.

Quote:4. There has been ZERO evidence of Cindy being involved in anything remotely complex that would involve someone needing to silence her.

No evidence does not necessarily mean there wasn't anything 'behind the scenes', like evidence or a 'remotely complex situation'.

Quote:5. She 's scared to reveal the attacker, but not scared enough to involved the police who could find the identity of the attacker on their own.

Maybe she was not affraid to reveal the person behind the attacks. It is well possible there was a lot more to it and she was not willing to reveal that.
I guess she only involved the police because she did not want to die. There was only one period she thought about suicide. And it is one thing to take your own life in your own manner and one a day and time of your choice. It is a whole other thing that another person decides it for you. And in the period she wanted it she did not act on it. Why then would she do it two years later when she not even wanted it?

Quote:This attacker is too skilled and too knowlegeable about surveillance and tracking to be that desperate. This would have to be a professional to not be caught doing these many acts.

A professional can also at one point in life become addicted. An addiction does not mean you don't or can't have skills.

Quote:1.That would involve other assasins, hence increasing the cost of this harrasment campaign.

Except when he did them away himself. And as I pointed out earlier, maybe he did not need to worry about money.

Quote:2.Why does he have to kill the attackers? The police haven't found any suspects? The murder is a suicide.

To make sure they could never betray him, making a deal with police, something like that.

Quote:3. Murdering hitmen is not a healthy way to live life. The only people who murder hitman are organized crime, police, terrorists or intelligence organizations.

Well, then we have to seek it in that direction. All kind of people can be part of that 'areas'.


Quote:Colonel Shue was in the military, which much like being a cop, being involved in drugs, being a politician lend themselves to being a victim of foul play and conspiracy. You should always be suspicious of of the death of any military person. Cindy James was a nurse and worked with kids.

That was not my point. The point was if there were other cases where it was not sure if it was murder of suicide. Colonel Shue was also found bound. Not an ordinarily suicide if it was one.

Quote:I could be wrong, but wasn;t her body found outside in the brush? I don;t think I could tell the difference between a decomposing body from car engine fumes, garbage, raccoons, mold or fungus?

Her body was indeed found outside, near a busy road or area. Someone should have smelled her if she was there for two weeks. Decomp. smell is very distinctive. I can't compare it with anything. It is def. not the same as rotten food, or mold etc.
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Old 01-23-2010, 10:29 PM   #143
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Quote:
Quote:2. If cindy was a whitsleblower there has to be someone that she is whistleblowing to. Where is that person? It's not the police. No reporter has come through. Why was Cindy not testafiying or part of some deposition?

She could have been deciding to be one but had not acted on it, so the delicate information was still hidden.
???

How would here killers no that she had sensitive info to begin with? For them to take this risk with someone who "potentially" could rat on them, Cindy would have to be deeply involved in their affairs. It would have to be an organized element cleaning up and taking care of all lose ends in the activities. Why would Cindy be considered a lose end in their activity? What was she doing illegally?

Quote:
Quote:3. Why would a criminal conspiracy do such acts over such a long period of time to silence one person.

Maybe it was fun to torment her?
I thought you said this was business, not pleasure.

Their trying to silence someone, tormenting that person for fun just runs more risks. Would professionals really risk their contract for jokes and giggles?
Quote:
Quote:They drew attention to Cindy by the whole compaign to begin with.

They drew it before and realised she could become a big problem.
They drew attention to their relationship with Cindy before the first attack? How? As far as I know, there has been nothing occuring previously to Cindy's attacks? There wasn;t any stories like in the Dave Bochs case? Where are the stories prior to the first attack?

Quote:
Quote:If there trying to silence her, why did they continune the acts even though she hasn;t revealed her attacker.

To scare her to death, she said that herself one time and you wrote it yourself at point 5.
Scaring her to death?? What;s wrong with a bullet to the head? Have you ever heard of an organization silencing witnesses by "scarring them to death"? If you want to kill someone, you kill them. It saves money, time and risk. You don;t waste time in a prolonged campaign unless your trying to get caught.


Quote:
Quote:4. There has been ZERO evidence of Cindy being involved in anything remotely complex that would involve someone needing to silence her.

No evidence does not necessarily mean there wasn't anything 'behind the scenes', like evidence or a 'remotely complex situation'.
Using that logic, anything is possible in this case.

Cindy James might have been a terrorist for the Palestinian Liberation Organization who killed herself to protect her comarades. There's no evidence of that either, but there could be, couldn;t there?


Quote:
Quote:5. She 's scared to reveal the attacker, but not scared enough to involved the police who could find the identity of the attacker on their own.

Maybe she was not affraid to reveal the person behind the attacks. It is well possible there was a lot more to it and she was not willing to reveal that.
I guess she only involved the police because she did not want to die. There was only one period she thought about suicide. And it is one thing to take your own life in your own manner and one a day and time of your choice. It is a whole other thing that another person decides it for you. And in the period she wanted it she did not act on it. Why then would she do it two years later when she not even wanted it?
I'm sorry I'm not following your logic here.

1.If she;s afraid to die, wouldn;t the easiest thing be to tell the police who is attacking her, so that they can put her in witness protection or whatever. So she could put these people in jail so the attacks can stop to begin with?

2. The minute someone thinks about committing suicide they can be at risk to committ suicide any time after that. There is no golden rule on when and how someone commits suicide.

3. if she was whistleblowing, isn't the whole point of that activity...to NAME people to begin with? If she was ready to name people, she had to have realized the risks that would come with it. Are you telling me that the attack campaign came as a surprise to her if she was whistleblowing?

4. Cindy changed her name and address, why would she not reveal the information then, before the next attack?

Quote:
Quote:This attacker is too skilled and too knowlegeable about surveillance and tracking to be that desperate. This would have to be a professional to not be caught doing these many acts.

A professional can also at one point in life become addicted. An addiction does not mean you don't or can't have skills.
Keep in mind the hitman is rarely contacted directly in something like this. So who the hitman is as a person may be a moot point. I seriously doubt these people contacted hitmen directly. The most likely used a broker.

I guess if the job was this high risk enough the broker might find a desperate man to do the job. But keep in mind that the broker has himself to worry about..he doesn;t want caught. He also has to worry about his reputation.

I can;t see a broker agreeing to keeping this type of contract and relationship for that long. The broker would ask for more money in this situation. Making this whole thing even more expensive.

[QUOTE]
Quote:2.Why does he have to kill the attackers? The police haven't found any suspects? The murder is a suicide.

To make sure they could never betray him, making a deal with police,

What are they going to tell the police? They know nothing

1. Your assuming the client knows who the attackers are in the first place...The client may never have meet the attackers in the first place. Those people may have been hired by the broker.

2. What could attackers possibly tell the police? That some unknown guy in a bar paid them to attack Cindy James? They know nothing of the client or the motives of the client. Just that some dude in a bar paid them money and gave them instructions.Considering the business that the broker is in and the type of people that hire the broker...it probably isn;t a good idea to rat on the broker.

3. God knows how many buffers and brokers are involved in a job like this. You could have several people who don;t know the person above them. That's the whole point of using the buffer.

4. Someone that specializes in killing and harming people is by nature not an easy person to kill. You really don;t want to try to go after a hitman unless you ABSOLUTELY HAVE TO. Think about what his occupation is?

Quote:
Quote:Colonel Shue was in the military, which much like being a cop, being involved in drugs, being a politician lend themselves to being a victim of foul play and conspiracy. You should always be suspicious of of the death of any military person. Cindy James was a nurse and worked with kids.

That was not my point. The point was if there were other cases where it was not sure if it was murder of suicide. Colonel Shue was also found bound. Not an ordinarily suicide if it was one.
Determining between murder/suicide/accident is one of the perils of homicide investigation.

There are
1. Homicides that are really accidents
2. Accidents that are really homicides.
3. Homicides that are really accidents
4. Suicides that are really homicides
5. Homicides that are really suicides
6. Accidents that are really suicides

Are you trying to say that there are some apparent suicides that are really homicides? Sure. But there are also apparent homicides that are really suicides and apparent suicides that are really....well... suicides!

Quote:
Quote:I could be wrong, but wasn;t her body found outside in the brush? I don;t think I could tell the difference between a decomposing body from car engine fumes, garbage, raccoons, mold or fungus?

Her body was indeed found outside, near a busy road or area. Someone should have smelled her if she was there for two weeks. Decomp. smell is very distinctive. I can't compare it with anything. It is def. not the same as rotten food, or mold etc.
1. You do realize that roadkill and dead animals die on sides roads all the time? Somehow the smell of deer which are much larger than humans doesn;t seem to attract much attention.

2. There have been several instances of actual dead bodies INSIDE buildings that have been discovered several weeks after death anyone knowing.

3. I really think your overestimating the smell of decomp and the degree to which the average Joe be bothered by that smell. Remember most people have no idea what a dead body smells like. What seems like a bad smell might be passed off by the average person as rotten garbage. Nobody's going to say, "Hey smell that! There's a dead body"

4. Who says nobody noticed the body? Some people may have noticed it and chose not to report it. Happens all the time. There's no blood or anything, maybe they thought she was doing kinky sex, was drunk or sleeping it off. M

5. Your also forgetting that smells mask other smells. Suppose, I ran exhaust fumes, placed mold, and threw garbage and rotten leaves in a room with a dead body. Could you really smell the decomp over all that?

6. Hell, I stumbled upon a corpse in an alley in Anacostia that was three weeks old and the smell wasn;t that noticeable. (Actually the garbage and the smell of the river was worse. )

This iso ne of the advantage of dumping bodies outside. Nobody notices them unless they see the body or stumble across it.
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Old 01-24-2010, 11:59 AM   #144
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Crazy

I'll trie to respond later. It is a lot to absorb.
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Old 01-27-2010, 03:19 PM   #145
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Her tormenters, killers or whatever to call them must have had the knowledge that she knew vital things.
Why would they otherwise bother to do all this. The 'fun' part I mentioned because it was done for so long, even when Cindy did not reveal anything. When a person does not speak out why bother to go through with it if you know she is already scared enough and will apparently not tell on them or the person behind it. It does not mean she herself did something illegal. It is possible she stumbled on illegal activities or overheard and the tormenter and helper(s) realized later somehow. That is also a loose end.
I think it was a combination of business and taking a sadistic pleasure out of doing this to her. Hitmen would not want to take the risk but the person behind this does not necessarily have to have the same opinion about it. And maybe there never were hitmen.
He could have ordered all this in the manner it just happened. r he only hired people to spy on her and do little things to her like cutting her phoneline, lay a dead cat on her doorstep and did the heavy stuff himself. Rationally he would know it is a risk but if he had a sadistic and/or sociopathic personality that would have gotten the upper hand. Because that kind of personalities think they are smarter than anyone else. He would like the risk and think the same time that everyone is too stupid to catch him.

'The story' prior to the first attact are not revealed to the public. The tormenters would for sure did not want that and Cindy did not tell for some reason.

A witness protection program isn't 'waterproof'/'airtight'. Maybe Cindy did not think it would save her.

If you at some point in your life want to commit suicide it does not mean you will do it. And if you tried it does not mean you will want it the rest of your life or will for sure try it again sometime in the future. That you have done it once can also cause a turning point. A realisation that you d want to live and from then one you will fight to get a better life.

The whistleblowing issue. She could have become one but obviously chose not to for some reason. Only Cindy knows why she did not reveal the name(s) of her attacker(s). Maybe at the time she thought that was the best decision to stay alive because she could not proof anything she knew.
And maybe she thought she would for sure die if she told and could stay alive if she kept her mouth shut.

I come back later to react on the rest of what you wrote.

At last, for now, I read in another thread you are paralized? How did that happen? If you want to tell. If not, forget I mentioned it.
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Old 01-27-2010, 08:29 PM   #146
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Lol

Quote:
At last, for now, I read in another thread you are paralized? How did that happen? If you want to tell. If not, forget I mentioned it.
Line of duty. I'll leave it a that, since explaining the circumstances would rob me of anonymity on this board. I believe I even googled the incident once. Thanks for asking, though.

Quote:
A witness protection program isn't 'waterproof'/'airtight'. Maybe Cindy did not think it would save her.
Yet, she was willing to change her name and address. A form of "personal witness protection" If she was willing to change her name, she would have gone all high hog and gone into the program.

Though admitedly I will agree that the canadian form of the witness protection program may not be to the same standard as the FBIs! (apologies to all canadians on this board)

Not all witness protection is voluntary. Cindy could always be jailed or

Quote:
If you at some point in your life want to commit suicide it does not mean you will do it. And if you tried it does not mean you will want it the rest of your life or will for sure try it again sometime in the future. That you have done it once can also cause a turning point. A realisation that you d want to live and from then one you will fight to get a better life.
Having suicide tendencies is much like being an alcoholic or drug addict. You are always potentially at risk to committ suicide. You could be really positive one day and then 12 months later you see a depressing news story and then go back to the same dark depression you were in previously.

Quote:
The whistleblowing issue. She could have become one but obviously chose not to for some reason. Only Cindy knows why she did not reveal the name(s) of her attacker(s). Maybe at the time she thought that was the best decision to stay alive because she could not proof anything she knew.
And maybe she thought she would for sure die if she told and could stay alive if she kept her mouth shut.
If she has no proof, then she's not a whistlblower.

She can't be an eyeball witness to anything since she would have all the proof she needs in her testimony.

If she has some vague information on the attackers, that would mean she is working for them in some capacity. Who could Nurse Cindy James possible be involved with?
1. Drugs?
2. Espionage?
3. Organized Crime

Quote:
Why would they otherwise bother to do all this. The 'fun' part I mentioned because it was done for so long, even when Cindy did not reveal anything. When a person does not speak out why bother to go through with it if you know she is already scared enough and will apparently not tell on them or the person behind it
Time is money. They can;t afford to have fun at Cindy James expense. They also have the police to worry about. Remember that the police had staked out Cindy;s home several times. And she has a private detective working for her.
Quote:
I think it was a combination of business and taking a sadistic pleasure out of doing this to her. Hitmen would not want to take the risk but the person behind this does not necessarily have to have the same opinion about it. And maybe there never were hitmen.
He could have ordered all this in the manner it just happened. r he only hired people to spy on her and do little things to her like cutting her phoneline, lay a dead cat on her doorstep and did the heavy stuff himself. Rationally he would know it is a risk but if he had a sadistic and/or sociopathic personality that would have gotten the upper hand. Because that kind of personalities think they are smarter than anyone else. He would like the risk and think the same time that everyone is too stupid to catch him.
Again, the scenario you depict is unbelievably expensive and risky for all parties. I can't see any criminal organization element being that stupid to do this activity and still being in business. They don;t need Cindy James to whitleblow on them...this whole terror campaign alone would do the entire organization in!

I mean they got all this talk, hiring people, surveillance, multiple attacks and doing all this while the police are involved in Cindy James case! Boy, I would love to investigate their organization!

I mean the minute you spoke to someone on the street about Cindy James the name must scream out. I bet I could easily go undercover and and wind up being part of this "hit terror squad"

For your scenario to be remotely possible, it would have to be soldiers within an established organization that already had ties to the

In "godfather" terms...capo regimes if you will... divisions of soldiers within an organized family.

And they would only do a campaign like this unless their boss was unbelievably angry at someone. They would not do a campaign like this n

How the heck Cindy James could be involved with a high level organized crime syndicate is bizarre.

The only even plausible scenario I could think of is that she was sexually involved with someone involved with organized crime. She cheated on him, he;s pissed and now he wants to make her life a living hell Which I guess is possible...though unbelievably improbable!!!

if they were having fun, why wasn;t rape a part of this?

Why didn;t the attackers rape Cindy James? She was quite attractive by the photographs we've seen.? What greater pleasure could there be in sexually tormenting this young women?
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Old 01-27-2010, 08:32 PM   #147
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Again not to offend Canadians...but how much high level organized crime is there in Vancouver back then??? I'm sure there is some, but not to the level like a city such as Philadelphia, San Francisco, Los Angeles, New York, etc..
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Old 01-27-2010, 10:18 PM   #148
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mastermind
Again not to offend Canadians...but how much high level organized crime is there in Vancouver back then??? I'm sure there is some, but not to the level like a city such as Philadelphia, San Francisco, Los Angeles, New York, etc..
I'm not sure that many of us would take offense to your suggestion that we lack your high level of organized crime.

Back then, Vancouver (like most NA cities) would not yet have had the newer wave of organized crime - it certainly has it now. There was some mob presence back then, but pretty mild in the scheme of things.
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Old 01-28-2010, 12:56 AM   #149
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mastermind
Again not to offend Canadians...but how much high level organized crime is there in Vancouver back then??? I'm sure there is some, but not to the level like a city such as Philadelphia, San Francisco, Los Angeles, New York, etc..
I'm not a Canadian but I own both books written about the Cindy James case. Here is an excerpt from "The deaths of Cindy James" by Neal Hall to answer your question. The book was written in 1990, one year after Cindy died.

Richmond (where Cindy's body was found) gets only a handful of homicides each year, mainly the domestic-dispute variety. A husband and wife get an a argument, tempers flare and someone ends up dead - usually the wife. Kitchen knives and hunting rifles are the popular weapons. The suburb's most serious crime problems are burglary and car theft, not murder. It's crime rate is nothing compared to neighboring Vancouver.

Vancouver, separated from Richmond by the muddy Fraser River, has the highest per capita crime rate in the country. The city, with it's surrounding suburbs, including Richmond, has about 1.4 million residents and is the economic and cultural hub of the province of British Columbia. The port of Vancouver is one of the busiest in the country, and B.C., with it's thousands of kilometers of uninhabited coastline and close proximity to the U.S. and Asia, is a drug smuggler's haven. And along with the drug trade come all disturbing spinoffs - gang style slayings, street prostitution and one of the largest concentrations of heroin and cocain addicts in Canada.

Richmond gets some spill-over from Vancouver's burgeoning crime scene: it has earned a reputation as a great place to dump a body. Canada's most notorious serial killer, Clifford Olson, buried three of his child victims amid the shadows of Richmond's stretches of unpopulated bush and tranquil blueberry fields. When the call came from the municipal works yard about Cindy's body being discovered at No. 3 and Blundell, police initially assumed that they had another Vancouver murder victim on their hands.
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Old 01-28-2010, 04:39 AM   #150
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I don't think it was organized crime in that sense of word in this case.
The suicide part I disagree. I know some part of 'that proces'.
English is not my native language so it is hard for me to argument that well.
Then it is fairly easy to blow all my thinking away.
It almost seems to me you're laughing at my writing, mastermind, which takes the interest in the case and responding to this thread away for me.
I think I leave this case at that.

The question about you being paralized was asked out of compassion. Ofcourse it was not my purpose that you reveal anything that can expose your identity. I understand and respect you want your privacy and keep your identity a secret. I just felt for your situation.
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