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Old 01-31-2007, 01:30 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by peachysquirt21
I believe he was murdered too. I think it is a very good possibility that he came upon something dealing with drugs. He was in the wrong place at the wrong time. What I also found interesting was in the re-inactment when the mother got approached & was told not to further investigate the case.

Anyone else notice that this seems to happen a lot, especially in cases where there appears to be some sort of cover-up/corruption? I can think of the Norman Ladner case, in addition to the Keith Warren case, the Amy Billig case, and The Circleville Letters. (Yeah, I know I'm kinda stretching with the Circleville Letter case, but I still find it amusing and baffling that UM was sent a postcard calling them "El Sickos.")
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Old 01-31-2007, 10:44 PM   #32
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Yeah I noticed it too. Awhile back I posted that the bizarre murder box set focuses heaviy on suspected bungled/inept police work, and joked that "now that I typed this, I'll probably end up mysteriously dissappearing too."

Gotta wonder how UM lasted 15 years given the numerous times it hinted police officers might be responsible. Michael Francke was another one, I'm sure the list goes on and on.
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Old 01-31-2007, 11:18 PM   #33
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Gotta wonder how UM lasted 15 years given the numerous times it hinted police officers might be responsible.
Yeah, you've gotta give UM credit for that. I'm not sure it would be as accepted if the program started today, in a post 9/11 world. NBC deserves praise as well.

Whenever I go to jury duty I'm wondering how defense lawyers ever win a case. I mean, it's not exactly 50/50 in terms of atmosphere. Police cars and vans surround the building. Police officers run the scanners on the way in, and telling you where to go. If you look at the background of the judges, a significant percentage are former prosecutors.

As far as families being asked not to pursue the case, I always wonder if those claims are all legit. There's a natural tendency to inflate yourself and your cause beyond what it is, so especially in the cases where the family doesn't want to accept a suicide or an accidental death as opposed to a conspiracy, I'd like to wager some of the "you better drop the matter for your own good" stories are convenient invention.
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Old 04-15-2007, 02:22 PM   #34
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sorry to bring up an older topic, but I was just watching this segment again and it is one of those segments that really gets to me. this and the boys on the tracks as others have mentioned, something about teenagers being murdered really makes me want to go down there and investigate myself, it isn't right. It seems they try to sell these off as suicides because the victims are teenagers and they think people will believe that at that age suicide is not that uncommon. Also, it is obvious it wasn't an accidental shooting or suicide, he had a rifle, which would make an accidental shooting hitting him in the head very unlikely. Maybe if it was a handgun it would be more plausible. Does anyone know if any other investigators took on this case aside from that small town police department? It seemed that no one believed that sheriff from the town, so why didn't they try to get the FBI or other investigators to help out and find out what was really going down. On the surface, this case should not have been that hard to solve, yet it is still unsolved. You have to wonder how many murders would not occur if drugs were not around.
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Old 04-16-2007, 01:55 AM   #35
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It seems they try to sell these off as suicides because the victims are teenagers and they think people will believe that at that age suicide is not that uncommon.
Regarding age, I don't think that Ladner's, Ives or Henry's age was a factor for the murderers when they murdered them. They probably would have killed anybody that unknowingly stumbled upon their drug drops. A lot of cases on UM involve people being in the wrong place at the wrong time (Blind River rest stop, for example.)

On a somewhat similar note, I always seem to have bad luck when I'm somewhere I'm not supposed to be. I would always have particularly bad days at work whenever I would get called in. A couple months ago, I was arriving home, but decided to drive around the block because I wanted to hear the rest of the song on the radio (yes I am aware that I have no life. ). As I was completing the drive around the block, I very narrowly missed hitting a deer. I hit one way back when and it did $1500 worth of damage to my car. One of my teachers in high school had hit a total of four deer. A common occurence here in Michigan.
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Old 04-19-2007, 12:36 PM   #36
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i guess i must assume that there has been no new information about this case?
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Old 04-20-2007, 07:26 PM   #37
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i guess i must assume that there has been no new information about this case?
Nope as with many other cases that was on UM.
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Old 04-25-2007, 11:34 PM   #38
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Well after watching this case repeatedly I can tell you that Ladner did not kill himself. Ladner was murdered, it was only a question of who and why. I imagine the sheriff's department covered up the fact that Ladner was killed by drug dealers or by someone that he stumbled onto, doing something they shouldnt have been doing. I am still waiting for Space Invaderz or someone to defend the cops and say that the cops didnt know jack and they were "just doing their jobs" by covering up a murder. Have you ever noticed the same people that defend this garbage also claim that Dr. MacDonald and Larry Race and others must be guilty because they were arrested? LOL. I look forward to hearing some responses to this one.
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Old 07-10-2007, 04:11 PM   #39
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Hi. Lorance Lumpkin was the Pearl River County sherriff back during the time of Norman's death. I was only 15 at the time but my buddy who was at the UM filming with me told me that he felt Lorance was hiding something. I don't remember ever discussing what his reasons for saying that was but I wish now we had talked about it. Our paths don't cross much anymore...it's been 2 years since I've seen him. I need to get back in touch with him and hopefully we can discuss Norman. He and Norman was very good friends as well. We would walk to the little store very often and hang out with Norman back behind the store on the property his family owned and where he was killed. We could walk from our houses to the store in about 10 minutes. Norman would take us to an area where he had a target set up and we would shoot Norman's bow and arrow back there. He was alot of fun to hang around with...always a joker too. He would come to school with fake vomit and gross the girls out with it. Up until his death, we never saw any reason for him to be depressed about anything. Norman's father was right...he loved life and would never have had a reason to commit suicide. As far as the radio device goes...I never saw it but we heard the family talking about it at the store. I did see the bullet that came back (the one that was switched). His dad had it at the store and let me see it. Something that I forgot to mention in my last post was that his mom and dad divorced sometime in the mid-90's. It's a shame that I never really kept in touch with any of them after his death and only learned about the divorce years after they signed the papers. They were a really great family and I was shocked to hear about it. I can only assume that Norman's death contributed to the split. It has become a cold case and frankly, I've heard no talk about it in a very long time. One thing I do remember my friend saying to me was that he had seen a low flying plane...a small, crop dusting type plane...flying in the area of their land around the time of Norman's death. My personal feelings are basically what was laid out in the UM episode. Norman walked upon a drug deal and was taken out. I guess my friend felt that sherriff Lorance Lumpkin knew of the drug deal and did what he could to make it look like a suicide. I wish I knew more and maybe I will if I could make contact with an old buddy of mine. Later.
Thanks for the info, Rovinggambler!! It is sad that this remains a cold case and it sounds like the authorities in that area are not doing much to solve it.
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Old 07-15-2007, 06:39 PM   #40
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Default Norman Ladner Case

Concerning the Norman Ladner case, as I mentioned before...Norman was a friend of mine and there is now a spark of hope that this case could be reopened. I'm not going to mention any names but there is a certain candidate on the upcoming elections ballot. This person is running for Pearl River County Sheriff here in Mississippi. He and my father are good friends and have discussed the Norman Ladner case extensively. This candidate has strong feelings about a certain invidual here in Picayune with ties to the Dixie Mafia. This person, should he win the election and become our new Sheriff, I have a feeling that he will look into this cold case.

In talking with my dad and his conversations with the candidate, I've learned that there were two indivuals (that I've personally met) that left town immediately after Norman's murder. One of these guys was mentally retarded and would pretty much do anything you told him. The other guy was a known friend of this guy with the Dixie Mafia ties. A little more info on this Dixie Mafia guy? Okay...it is widely known here in Picayune this is indiviual is a prominant business owner and that during football season, police cars can normally be seen in his parking lot at night during the game. This normally wouldn't seem odd except for the fact that they are there for his protection while he conducts illegal betting within his business. Now do you see the police corruption? Back to the other two guys...the candidate feels that the Dixie Mafia guy had his buddy and the retarded guy at the scene of the drug dropping out in the woods to make sure all went as planned. Norman came upon the activity as it was happening and retarded guy was most likely the trigger man. As I said earlier, these two inviduals skipped town right after and didn't return until at least five years had passed. Retarded guy is still in the area and is still retarded. In fact, not long ago I heard that he laid down in the middle of a busy road around here and acted like he had been hit by a car. He was rolling around and screaming and carrying on until somebody stopped to see what was going on and he jumped up, laughed, and took off running into the woods. Anyway, the other guy has since died.

Let's hope that with the upcoming election, this candidate is elected and just maybe...this case will be reopened.

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Old 07-15-2007, 10:41 PM   #41
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Hey, well thanks for posting the updates rovinggambler. Well I hope that candidate that you are pushing wins the sheriff's election down there in Pearl River County, Mississippi. I was sad to see the passing of Norman's father 3 or 4 years ago, as was posted on this board. I was thinking of writing to the current Pearl River County sheriff to see if he would re-open the investigation but I doubt it would do much good.
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Old 07-16-2007, 09:20 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by peachysquirt21
The train deaths occured on 8/23/87
Norman Ladner's death occured on 8/21/89

The distance from where Norman lived to the 2 boys in the train deaths is around 422 miles.

Seeing some here who think there might be a connection with these 2 cases, I got to thinking more about the 2 cases & was curious the distance between where the 2 cases took place.

Sorry for rambling, I spend way too much time on the internet. LOL
Excellent post, peachysquirt21. I think there is next to no chance that these two cases are connected in any way. Two murders that have some vague similarities, committed two years apart, and 400+ miles away from one another? I don't think so. If that's the basis of a connection, then there are, I'm sure, literally thousands of other murders that could be argued as being "connected." That's Kennedy assasination theory logic.

Moreover, I still think Charles Ladner died of a self-inflicted gunshot wound. The kid, even by his parents' own admission, was something of a "loner," often spending lots of times in the woods alone. A 16 year old kid with lots of time to think on his hands and a gun can be a dangerous thing.

More importantly, there is simply NO EVIDENCE anyone else was there. The "drug dropoff" theory is still essentially nothing but conjecture, two-bit coommunication devices aside. And, at any rate, since Ladner's father found the device so long after his son's death, there is really no way to assert, based on the facts at hand, what if any relationship the device and Ladner's death have, And the idea that the device was used to radio planes comes second hand from an anonymous retired officer, so again, there is no direct evidence linking the device to any specific drug activity, on the night of Ladner's death or otherwise.

The bruise on the top of Ladner's head is at least interesting, but, if I recall correctly, Ladner was standing underneath a tree when he died. Perhaps he used the gun to shoot himself, and the force of the blast knocked his head backwards and it hit the tree, hard, before he fell to the ground. The kickback on guns is more significant than people realize, I think.

The only thing I find the least bit troubling is the gun being broken in half. It is hard to imagine how that happened, but, then again, it's hard to imagine how it happened under ANY circumstances. If someone got the jump on him and killed him, however they did it, why would they go to the trouble of breaking his gun? I suppose it could have broken during a struggle, but even that seems unlikely. Let's put it this way: the gun being broken is such an unusual circumstance that I can't think of any explanation fitting into either a murder or suicide scenario that seems terribly likely; since that's the case, the gun's broken state doesn't tend to support either murder or suicide with any certainty in my mind.

And with no other actual evidence supporting the prospect that someone else was there or that drug trafficking involving planes and radios was even happening in the first place, I think the highest probability remains that Charles Ladner shot himself.
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Old 07-16-2007, 12:08 PM   #43
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^ Well between mozart and roving gambler I'm all confused. I have no idea what happened here anymore. When I first saw the segment I leaned towards a homicide perhaps due to a drug drop. I feel there are some similarities between the death of Ladner and the death of Kevin Ives & Don Henry.

But Mozart's points are really solid as well as there is no hard evidence that points to homicide. As a psychologist though without having knowledge of depression, anxiety or some type of trauma in Ladner's life I'm uncomfortable leaning towards a ruling of suicide. The fact that he was a "loner" in my opinion is not enough to make me swing towards suicide because from that we can only make casual connections and broad generalizations.

So I really don't know what happened. Another theory brought forward in the segment is it may have been an accident. Coincidently having spent my childhood in rural Vermont, I'm also a bit of a hunter and in my experience you'd be surprised how many youngsters around Norman's age have no idea how to handle a weapon which of course opens up the door to accidents. Again I obviously don't know anything specific about Norman's skill as a hunter so again its just conjecture.

So I don't know, in my opinion we just don't have enough information. It could go either way mozart or gambler suggested.
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Old 07-16-2007, 01:37 PM   #44
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^ Well between mozart and roving gambler I'm all confused. I have no idea what happened here anymore. When I first saw the segment I leaned towards a homicide perhaps due to a drug drop. I feel there are some similarities between the death of Ladner and the death of Kevin Ives & Don Henry.

But Mozart's points are really solid as well as there is no hard evidence that points to homicide. As a psychologist though without having knowledge of depression, anxiety or some type of trauma in Ladner's life I'm uncomfortable leaning towards a ruling of suicide. The fact that he was a "loner" in my opinion is not enough to make me swing towards suicide because from that we can only make casual connections and broad generalizations.

So I really don't know what happened. Another theory brought forward in the segment is it may have been an accident. Coincidently having spent my childhood in rural Vermont, I'm also a bit of a hunter and in my experience you'd be surprised how many youngsters around Norman's age have no idea how to handle a weapon which of course opens up the door to accidents. Again I obviously don't know anything specific about Norman's skill as a hunter so again its just conjecture.

So I don't know, in my opinion we just don't have enough information. It could go either way mozart or gambler suggested.
An accident scenario is an "attractive" middle way between murder and suicide. One could suppose that perhaps he climbed or was climbing the tree he was found under in order to get a better shot at deer, then fell out, causing the bump on his head, a shot to be accidentally fired into his head, and causing the gun to break. Perhaps a fall from a height is even the most likely way to explain how the gun broke.

But I doubt even this. I thought it was quite telling how one of the investigating officers, during the UM segment, mentioned that if Ladner's death were ruled an accident rather than a suicide, he felt it was quite likely that Ladner's parents would stop pursuing the matter (because believing one's son died in a hunting accident, rather than by suicide, is infinitely preferable, especially to devoutly Christian families). What that tells me is that if there really was some kind of police conspiracy involving a massive drug ring, and that this murder was connected to that, and the police wanted to make it go away, they would have ruled the death an accident in an attempt to appease Ladner's parents. The very fact that they stood in against the criticism and accusations of Ladner's folks and the uncomfortable questions and insinuations that came with them suggests to me that the investigating officers genuinely believe Charles Ladner shot himself.

He would have had to have fallen just right to manage to accidentally shoot his own head on the way down. It's still possible (one could argue that this is how the bullet found under Charles' body got there: he shot himself in mid-air after falling headlong from the tree but before he hit the ground; thus, it exited from his head and went into the dirt just before he himself did the same).

I think the far more likely explanation is that Charles went up into that tree and shot himself there. The bullet went through his head, and, having lost quite a bit of its initial velocity after passing into and through Charles, ricocheted off some part of the tree and went straight down into the dirt (this would be consistent with Charles putting the gun under his jaw and firing --- the bullet would travel upward through his head, perhaps hitting a bough of the tree almost directly above him, and bouncing back down to the ground). His body then fell from the tree, probably head first, resulting in the lump he had, and the gun fell too, breaking from the impact.
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Old 07-16-2007, 05:31 PM   #45
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Actually it's Norman Ladner, unless Charles was his real name.

I do remember the segment stating that his wallet (which usually contained several hundred dollars, if I remember correctly) was missing. A person committing suicide would probably have no reason to ditch their wallet. This would suggest to me that someone was there.

mozart, I would say that Norman being a loner at 16 is a moot point. I was at that age as well, but I certainly could have never killed myself. Plus, there's no indication that he was suffering from any type of trouble at home, it appears things were going very good at home (one of 7 children.) Again, we're not told much about Norman's life, but there's nothing outright that suggests Norman would have killed himself. He might not have had friends, but there's no indication that he was being bullied or anything, I know rovinggambler mentioned in the past that Norman was quite the prankster.

But if he was encountering problems, he was only two years away from graduating high school/being able to move out, so those problems would have quickly disappeared if he could just hang on for a little while longer. People that committ suicide typically feel that all hope is lost, and I'm not sure if Norman felt that way.

I also can't speculate as to Norman's hunting abilities, but from the segment, it says that he went out into the woods alot, so I figured he did have some experience in hunting, as I would imagine alot of teen boys in Mississippi would have.

But I agree with Dante, we would need a lot more information on this case to make better projections.
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