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Old 12-10-2010, 02:25 PM   #76
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That's what I said when I first saw this segment, which caused my dad to explain how very wrong I was. He was in the Highway Patrol in Florida at around this time, and yeah, bikers were abducting middle class girls. He personally found a grove where about 5 women/girls were chained to trees, all dead, all raped and tortured. One was 12 years old. It was bikers (The Pagans, specifically). It was not an isolated incident, though the scale was unique. Sure, they had willing women, but so? Most rapists could, if they wanted, find a woman to have sex with them. But that's not what they want.

The racketeering stuff all seems to be fairly late from the brief research I just did - the 1990s on. Even Hunter S. Thompson's book, which is trying oh so very hard to make the Hells Angels sound cool and awesome, ended up mentioning their brutality against women. Gang rapes were a common punishment. They weren't all non-violent racketeers who had respectful sex with ladies who liked them. I don't know how common it was or if there was a large ring that sold women, but abductions? Oh, yes. That happened. And the Hells Angels in Germany were found to be behind just such a ring, for what it's worth.
Do you know of any information available online pertaining to the 5 girls found bound to trees? Do you know where this happened?
Im sure it is possible that Amy was abducted and killed by bikers but I highly doubt they kept her with them for years and years. I think she probably died that day. Im not saying that these types arent violent and abusive towards women at all. It just seems odd to me that they would want to draw the attention of the police onto themselves like this. Its kinda hard to operate in the shadows if your kidnapping civilans.
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Old 12-10-2010, 03:28 PM   #77
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Im sure it is possible that Amy was abducted and killed by bikers but I highly doubt they kept her with them for years and years. I think she probably died that day. Im not saying that these types arent violent and abusive towards women at all. It just seems odd to me that they would want to draw the attention of the police onto themselves like this. Its kinda hard to operate in the shadows if your kidnapping civilans.
Exactly.

This goes against the normal behavior of most 1%er gangs. While most are anti mainstream and often violent criminals; a good many of them tend to keep to themselves and their own little patch of Earth (while still being involved in various drug crimes, weapons dealing, and getting into low rent turf wars and bar fights) Kidnapping I can see as a quick money ploy but keeping someone for years and years draws the kind of attention that would have the gang throw these guys out and kill them for bringing the law down on them because by doing so they have become a liability to the whole bunch. You can't make much money doing illegal activities if your drawing attention to yourself.

Also there is no money in doing this. Sadly what there was money in was leading a poor grieving mother on some wild snipe hunt. I don't think the bikers that were bilking her really knew anything. Also if they did know anything why would they violate the gang code of silence by doing this it and putting their own lives at risk doesn't make much sense.
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Old 12-10-2010, 05:35 PM   #78
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Do you know of any information available online pertaining to the 5 girls found bound to trees? Do you know where this happened?
Im sure it is possible that Amy was abducted and killed by bikers but I highly doubt they kept her with them for years and years. I think she probably died that day. Im not saying that these types arent violent and abusive towards women at all. It just seems odd to me that they would want to draw the attention of the police onto themselves like this. Its kinda hard to operate in the shadows if your kidnapping civilans.
Sorry, I don't know of any info online - it was in the mid-1970s. My dad died a few years ago, so I can't get too many more details. I asked my mom and she thinks it was in the Everglades. The thing about trafficking in Germany is on Wikipedia, though, and Thompson's book is readily available.

I think we're cross-communicating a little, now that I think about it. I wasn't distinguishing between "women who were kidnapped from the start" and "women who now count as kidnapped because they went willingly but weren't counting on the gang-rape." I'm not saying they necessarily were snatching rich girls out of their bedrooms, but a woman who initially joined then changed her mind and is held against her will is still abducted. Unfortunately, that woman is often written off as having run away willingly and the investigation might not be as intense.

I do think you're underestimating how difficult it can be for the cops to bust a nomadic group that won't squeal on each other. Even if an individual goes down for a crime that doesn't mean the group stops. It's indisputable that the Pagans brought police attention on themselves multiple times through some very public murders. The Lewis Hartless/Richard Newland case springs to mind. Some individuals went down, but the group manages to operate perfectly well despite this.

This, from earlier - while they may trade their women or sell them they are not kidnapped.
Yeah, they are. It's not actually legal to sell a woman. I can guarantee you it is often, maybe always, kidnapping, even if Stockholm Syndrome has kicked in at some point.

I don't know if Billig was abducted by bikers. I certainly don't think it went down with the whole elaborate London scenario. But to say it couldn't have been bikers because bikers simply never kidnapped women is bizarre.

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Old 12-10-2010, 09:12 PM   #79
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I don't believe Amy was ever taken to the UK. I don't know what the motive was behind that part of the story. I think it was a british production company who paid Paul the biker's girlfriend to tell the "gang rape and alligator" story to Sue Billig on camera. They were also the ones who filmed the "mourning at the grave" scene. Seems like the UK guy who claimed that someone tried to sell Amy to him was PI or something. Maybe he was connected to the production company and was hoping to get fame or money from being involved in the case.
Yeah, this part of the story made zero sense to me and I never believed a word of it. I don't have much knowledge of how a biker would go about trying to sell a girl, but I doubt he would try it in a crowded post office in the middle of the day! The middle-aged British gentleman they cast in the re-enactment certainly didn't look like the most likely candidate to approach about buying a girl .
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Old 12-12-2010, 06:35 PM   #80
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The middle-aged British gentleman they cast in the re-enactment certainly didn't look like the most likely candidate to approach about buying a girl .
Ha ha! Yeah, the actor was a little bit too "Pip pip! Cheerio! Tell me more about your American prostitute..." Not to make light of the Billig disappearance, but that guy's story was not too believable and the reenactment just made it even less believable.
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Old 12-13-2010, 02:27 AM   #81
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The bikers story sounds uncredible..The leads never led to nothing but more searching and more money out of sue's pocket to hunt down amy. It's so uncredible the main bikers gf states that amy overdosed and was fed to alligators..How ridiculous does this sound at this point to Sue after she was led on this wild goose chase for so many years to so many places just to find out the guy lied and amy died the first night?! Common...Theres nothing in my mind to link Amy ever being with them.

Witnesses never produced anything credible to the whereabouts of amy. So altho they may have been rough and tough, they never in my mind had Amy. She would always get there just minutes late or days late of Amy being found. I do not believe they had Amy. I do however question "Hank" in this equation. Amy had actually made a reference to him and it links to a man very similar in nickname and type of vehicle. And who was this woman at the grocery store that had seen amy? Would it have been uncommon for several hippies in that time to eat vegetarian food? Was there a reward in that time when Sue asked the convienant clerk if there was any info that led to Amy? So the plot thickens more as we pick away at each detail of this story and try and find facts here to pull this jigsaw puzzle together.
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Old 12-13-2010, 09:05 AM   #82
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The woman in the convenience store who said she saw Amy was the owner of the store. She said she thought Amy might be pregnant and gave her crackers to help with the nausea, apparently because she didn't have any money to pay for the crackers.

At least in the early years of the search, the money in the escrow fund was usually $1,000 or $2,000. They used the money for reward money and search related expenses. At the time Sue met with the store clerk, I think the reward was $1,000, but I'm not positive. Since the lead didn't produce Amy or any proof of her location, I don't think she got any of the reward money, but again, I'm not positive.

When those spoiled brat brothers lied to Mrs. Billig, telling her to meet them at a hotel with $30,000 in a black briefcase and they would hand Amy over to her, that ransom money was obtained through a banker friend of the Billigs. Law enforcement was involved, but I don't think they provided the cash and that money didn't come out of Amy's escrow donations. I'm not sure the book is exactly clear on where that money came from, if the bank and friends of the Billigs donated all they could to the ransom or what. When the hoax kid called and said he wanted to exchange Amy for a small sum of money, $30,000, Sue Billig said to him, "You call that small!?"

Regarding the vegetarian food... The book says that the state was full of hippie gatherings, "love ins", and music festivals inspired by Woodstock. The bikers would go harass the hippies and drive up swinging chains and beating them with chains. I don't know what that was all about. They must have considered attacking people to be their entertainment. IMO, the girl buying the vegetarian soup could have easily been one of the hippie girls traveling in and out of the state for the festivals and she just happed to be a vegetarian. IIRC, the store was in or near Kissimee, FL.
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Old 12-13-2010, 10:32 AM   #83
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IMO, the girl buying the vegetarian soup could have easily been one of the hippie girls traveling in and out of the state for the festivals and she just happed to be a vegetarian. IIRC, the store was in or near Kissimee, FL.
I've always thought this too. It's just too bold to say it was definitely Amy just because the girl bought vegetarian soup. She was last seen hitchiking, so it could have been anyone who kidnapped her. I still think she was killed shortly after she was abducted, and feel bad for what her mother had to go through in searching for her.
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Old 12-14-2010, 03:29 AM   #84
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I was reading up on the outlaws biker gang today and it came as no suprise that the FBI had put undercover agents into the group. This made me wonder, has anyone ever entertained the idea that this Dave guy from the outlaws was really an undercover agent who was trying to help them find Amy while at the same time not blowing his cover??

Would this not explain why he would try and help Sue even though it seems to make no sense? Has anyone dove into this case enough to know if Sue ever gave Dave any money? Im just puzzled as to what his motivation would be if he was not working undercover.
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Old 12-14-2010, 04:58 AM   #85
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I was reading up on the outlaws biker gang today and it came as no suprise that the FBI had put undercover agents into the group. This made me wonder, has anyone ever entertained the idea that this Dave guy from the outlaws was really an undercover agent who was trying to help them find Amy while at the same time not blowing his cover??

Would this not explain why he would try and help Sue even though it seems to make no sense? Has anyone dove into this case enough to know if Sue ever gave Dave any money? Im just puzzled as to what his motivation would be if he was not working undercover.
This is going to sound naive, but maybe just simple decency? I mean all of those biker guys have mothers, sisters, etc...I'm sure there had to be one decent one among them who viewed the practice of just "taking" women and selling them amongst each other as wrong.
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Old 12-14-2010, 08:55 AM   #86
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I doubt Dave would have been an FBI agent simply because he never revealed that to Sue Billig. Remember in the UM segment she said she hated him and basically wanted to destroy him when she saw him, and he's sitting right in front of her admitting that he "owned" her daughter. If he was working to save Amy, I don't see how revealing himself to her mother would have hindered the investigation at all...Sue obviously wouldn't have blabbed to someone, just look at the great lengths she took in trying to locate Amy.
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Old 12-14-2010, 09:41 AM   #87
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"Dave" was Paul Branch, the guy I've been calling "Paul the biker" in my posts.

I doubt he was any kind of law enforcement. He told Mrs. Billig that her daughter was in OK. She flew there ahead of him and got a hotel room. He was about a week late to their meeting, and for some reason, having obtained a van instead of his motorcycle. He had some kind of problems with his motel room, and had Sue pay for him to stay one night in the Honeymoon suite of her hotel, which was the only room available in the area at the time, due to a big convention.

At the end of his life, he was covered with skin cancer, nearly toothless, one of his eyes had the tendons removed, was so damaged that he couldn't open it without using his fingers and he eventually went blind in that eye.

When he died, he was near destitute, living in his girlfriend's trailer in the backwoods of VA. He met his girlfriend, through another inmate, while he was in prison. He lived with her for 10 years before his death. She was the woman who told the "gang rape and alligator" story for the british production company who she says paid her $200 for her tale.

Edited to make a correction re: the van and motorcycle.

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Old 12-14-2010, 09:59 AM   #88
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I just watched the segment again. That stuff about Amy being in England is all a horrible lie. I can't believe that two PIs would victimize Sue Billig for their own profit, but then I was surprised at the two miami cops who scammed her out of $1,500.

Nearly 20 years after Amy went missing, a PI from florida contacted Sue Billig to say that a PI in england, who she was working with on another case, had been offered Amy for sale. Why in the world would an american biker travel to England, go to the post office, and approach a private investigator to offer him a slave? First, I'd like to see the biker with enough money to travel to europe, and second, once he was there, why wouldn't he hook up with other bikers and try to sell his woman to one of them? It's all lies. None of that ever happened.

Every bit of information those PIs gave Sue Billig was available to the public. Amy's interest in music, her reputation as "mute", etc, was all common knowledge. I don't know what those idiots were thinking, but the female PI got her mug on TV (which I'm sure she needed to boost her business) and karma got the male PI one year later.
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Old 12-14-2010, 10:24 AM   #89
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Ha ha! Yeah, the actor was a little bit too "Pip pip! Cheerio! Tell me more about your American prostitute..." Not to make light of the Billig disappearance, but that guy's story was not too believable and the reenactment just made it even less believable.
Yeah he was more of a "spot of tea on the meadow" kind of guy.
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Old 12-14-2010, 10:36 AM   #90
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I just watched the segment again. That stuff about Amy being in England is all a horrible lie. I can't believe that two PIs would victimize Sue Billig for their own profit, but then I was surprised at the two miami cops who scammed her out of $1,500.

Nearly 20 years after Amy went missing, a PI from florida contacted Sue Billig to say that a PI in england, who she was working with on another case, had been offered Amy for sale. Why in the world would an american biker travel to England, go to the post office, and approach a private investigator to offer him a slave? First, I'd like to see the biker with enough money to travel to europe, and second, once he was there, why wouldn't he hook up with other bikers and try to sell his woman to one of them? It's all lies. None of that ever happened.

Every bit of information those PIs gave Sue Billig was available to the public. Amy's interest in music, her reputation as "mute", etc, was all common knowledge. I don't know what those idiots were thinking, but the female PI got her mug on TV (which I'm sure she needed to boost her business) and karma got the male PI one year later.
yes i mentioned this previous as well..and who knows if the owner of the store thought just for providing a tip she would get rewarded? hard to say..vegetarian could in fact be ate by anyone so its not uncommon for that time. You mentioned a convention? what sort of convention? I always thought either amy was killed that night by an unknown person or joined the church in some type of cult. I read on a organization that during the time of the 70's concealed peoples identities with new ones, also they wouldnt allow anyone to receive blood transfusions and major organ operations as it was against thier religion in that time. Many people died because of this as the hospital was not allowed to save them without their approval of these external organs or blood..I wonder...
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