Kurt Sova

[Steve W.]

Tonight makes it 29 years now since Kurt went to the party at the duplex. I still can't believe that this has never been solved, or at least updated.

I honestly don't think anyone has ever interviewed any of the people that lived at the duplex or that were at the party with Kurt. If they're still alive and there was a way to question them, I would think that would make a big difference in this case.

[DarkDante]

Originally Posted by Steve W.

Tonight makes it 29 years now since Kurt went to the party at the duplex. I still can't believe that this has never been solved, or at least updated.

I honestly don't think anyone has ever interviewed any of the people that lived at the duplex or that were at the party with Kurt. If they're still alive and there was a way to question them, I would think that would make a big difference in this case.

The investigation was bungled right from the start from the police to the pathologist and right down the line. Just really bad work by the authorities which may have ultimately put an end to any chance that this case will ever be solved. The theory that seems most likely though is some type of drug overdose at the party and the teenagers he was with panicking and not knowing what to do in that situation. In the end I'm sure they just dumped his body out in that ravine because as Dorothy Sova put it "they didn't want to be seen with him".

I have no idea what was going on with all the sightings of Kurt after he allegedly vanished but I'm not all together certain that they are accurate either. I think while it's possible that Kurt didn't die on the night of the party that he might have been violently ill and instead of calling in the paramedics the teenagers at the party may have tried to nurse him back to health on their own over the course of several days in the basement of the duplex. Kurt may have ultimately died at some point in that basement but without a proper pathology report being done it probably would have been hard to determine an exact time of death.

[sdb4884]

http://www.retrojunk.com/details_articles/2659/

anyone seen this, interesting write up on UM in general and mentions the Sova case in the top 10 of his insomnia-inducing offenders.

[sdb4884]

Can anyone pinpoint the locations of the bodies, the location of the duplex for us on Google Earth?

[Steve W.]

Originally Posted by sdb4884

http://www.retrojunk.com/details_articles/2659/

anyone seen this, interesting write up on UM in general and mentions the Sova case in the top 10 of his insomnia-inducing offenders.

That was made by MegTheEgg, a regular poster on this message board.

[Steve W.]

"I think while it's possible that Kurt didn't die on the night of the party that he might have been violently ill and instead of calling in the paramedics the teenagers at the party may have tried to nurse him back to health on their own over the course of several days in the basement of the duplex. Kurt may have ultimately died at some point in that basement but without a proper pathology report being done it probably would have been hard to determine an exact time of death."

I remember reading in the 1991 newspaper article linked in this thread (something not mentioned in the UM segment) where it said on Friday, October 23rd (1981), Kurt skipped school that day and gave someone over 21 money to buy Everclear for him at a store and then supposedly took it over to his girlfriend's (no girlfriend ever mentioned in the UM segment, no name given in the article either) house and drank (who knows how much?) some of it.

Everclear is 95% alcohol, so he could have already been super wasted by the time he went with his friend Samuel C. Carroll to the duplex party. Obviously, Samuel, one of the people that lived at the duplex (Debbie Sams, Clayton Sams, etc.), or just someone who was a friend of the duplex people must have given Kurt something while he was there or snuck something into a drink or narcotic that they gave to him. Otherwise, there would be no reason to lie about what happened to him or to lie about having a party if Kurt brought this on himself and passed out from his own alcohol drinking. If that was the case, they probably would've just said that he was drinking his own Everclear and passed out from it.

A scenario I can imagine is that he was pretty buzzed or drunk when he was walking there with Samuel and when he got there, depending on how much of the Everclear he drank over the course of that day, and everyone at the party could probably tell he was buzzed or drunk, so one or more of them thought it would be funny to give him something else, because in his altered state they probably knew he'd be like, "yeah" or "okay" and take whatever it was and that's probably what ended up putting him over the edge.

[TheCars1986]

Yeah I agree with everyone who's on board with the drug scenario. It makes the most sense. Although why hasn't someone from the party came forward after all of these years (not even one innocent bystander who happened to see Kurt at the party) to say what really happened to Kurt, or even offer some more information on the case? I really think Kurt's friend who saw him get into a van was mistaken...I think Kurt was in the basement for the 3 days he was missing (probably unconscious). I think he had a weird reaction/overdose on some drugs he was doing, some partygoers panicked, then decided to put him in the basement until they figures something out to do. Why wouldn't they just take him to the hospital? Obviously for fear of getting in trouble for drugs, and there was most likely some selling going on and distribution to a minor is a pretty heavy offense. This "Susan" lady was in on everythig as far as I'm concerned. She knew what happened to him, why else would she lie Kurt's mother if all she did was throw a party that Kurt attended? Also, I think she phoned Kurt's parents at 3:30 was because her conscious was getting the better of her and she knew something was seriously wrong with him after 3 days of being down there, so in a last ditch attempt to redeem/clear herself she called and said she thought it was Kurt who was down there. Obviously that was a lie as well (she had to know who was in her basement), and someone overheard that phone call and freaked out, went down to move Kurt but he was most likely already dead (He also may very well have been dead before Susan called his parents, and after whoever moved his body found out she called his folks, then they decided to dump the body). Then in a frenzy someone/they moved his body to the nearby ravine. The story about the friend who left him on a fence? Lie. Why wouldn't the friend have come forward sooner and notified Kurt's parents that he didn't know what happened to Kurt? That was just a quick lie to make it look like Kurt had wandered off and died from being too intoxicated/stoned. And in all honesty as much of a stretch as it sounds, I think it's just a coincidence about Eugene's shoe being missing as well as Kurt's. Whoever moved Kurt got rid of his shoe, and if there were more ties between the two boys, I'm sure UM would have aired it on their segment.

All in all this was a strange case, and I'd love to hear what happened to this "Susan" and if Kurt's parents are still alive and if their still pushing for the case to be solved.

[mozartpc27]

I have to confess this case has never interested me all that much, in that it seemed perfectly obvious what happened here: the kid went to a party where he had too much to drink, and the people at the party panicked because they could obviously be charged with his death. Why else the lady who threw the party - Susan - deny all knowledge of said party when asked the first time? In the end, they had to dump him.

Not really all that mysterious. I'm a little surprised that the police weren't able to put enough pressure on Susan to make her give up more information.

[mozartpc27]

For those who do see something of interest in this case, I am surprised that no one pointed out this discrepancy between the UM segment and the enlightening article about the Sova case found by MegtheEgg. According to the UM segment, the "crazy from Detroit" left his little poem on Tuesday, the day before Sova was found, and was questioned by police later that afternoon. dynoguy88's timeline from page 4 of this thread lays this out nicely:

Originally Posted by dynoguy88

TUESDAY MORNING (October 27, 1981) - The record store owner goes to open the store and finds flowers and a note from the crazy from Detroit. The note says -

"Roses are red,
the sky is blue.
They found him dead,
and they'll find you too."

TUESDAY AFTERNOON - Police question the crazy from Detroit. But since Kurt was just missing at this time, they let him go. He is never seen again.

But according to the article, our colorful homeless man left his verse for the shopkeep on Thursday morning, or the day after Sova was found:

Originally Posted by Bill Sammon

To make matters worse, when Oros arrived at the record store Thursday morning, a neighboring merchant gave her a bouquet of flowers left for her by the man.

"There was a note in it," Oros recalled. "It said: 'Roses are red, the sky is blue. They found him dead and they'll find you, too.'

By the time the man showed up at the store again, Oros had alerted Cleveland police, who sent two detectives.

"They took him outside and were sitting in their car with him," Oros recalled. "They checked! him out. They told me he was just some wacko from Detroit."

The man was released and Oros never saw him again. The man was never interviewed by Newburgh Heights police.

It's possible, of course, that the author of the article, and not UM, was wrong. But I think it a good deal more likely that our homeless man was a good listener, rather than a soothsayer.

But, in terms of pursuing this case, the big thing to me seems to be what kind of crime anyone will ever be able to prove went on here. A kid under 18 begins the last day anyone can say for absolute CERTAIN he was alive by drinking Everclear - **** you should not **** around with, by the way - and winds up dead. Well, they evidently know he got the Everclear, before he ever got to the party, and that means they probably know who got it for him. Anyone at the party can claim, and it will never be disproven, that Kurt was already significantly intoxicated before he ever arrived, you know, from that Everclear he had been drinking all day. So, if Kurt then subsequently drank some more and got even worse, or took a drug that reacted badly with the alcohol - highly likely, IMHO (i.e., that neither the alcohol nor the drug in question would have been enough by themselves to kill him, but the COMBINATION of the two were what did it), the people at the party can always plausibly claim that what truly began the process of killing Kurt began before he ever arrived at that party. At this point, there is no way to disprove that assertion.

So, I don't think filing any sort of murder charge, no matter how convoluted, is in the offing. And everything else that you might conceivably envision someone being charged with in connection with this event has long since passed its statute of limitations: drug possession or distribution, the sale or providing of alcohol to an underage person, improperly disposing of a body, obstruction of justice, etc.

Thus, even if we could get a blow-by-blow description of what happened from the time Kurt left his house that Friday until the time he was found dead, and the names and current locations of everyone he was with those five days, I have my doubts about whether any of htem could be prosecuted for anything at this point.

[Steve W.]

That was well(written)-said, mozartpc (both posts).

I agree that no one will ever be charged with his death or contributing to his death, but I would still like to hear, read, or see that someone that lived at that duplex (Clayton Sams, Debbie Sams, "Susan", or whoever else) or someone that was at the party with Kurt (Samuel Carroll or whoever else) ADMIT publicly/or to authorities that they know what really happened to him at the party. That would bring some closure for me at least, and I'm sure a lot of others as well (including his surviving family and friends). Technically, that would be an "Update" to the case if one of those people would come forward and tell the truth about Kurt that night/early morning and the five days that followed before he was found.

Assuming he drank a decent amount of that Everclear before he passed out and/or died, he obviously partly brought his demise on himself BUT all of the people at the party who were questioned once (and probably ONLY once) by authorities definitely know WHO ELSE is partly responsible for his death, too, because, as we agree on, "Susan" wouldn't have lied about having the party and Samuel Carroll wouldn't have lied about Kurt leaning on the fence outside and wandering off if there wasn't SOMEONE ELSE who contributed to his death (giving him something to drink, smoke, sniff, shoot up, whatever the case was).

If none of these people ever tell the truth, the one other option for potentially solving the case would be to exhume his body and have another autopsy done, where tests are done for a wide variety or narcotics instead of just three.

I just want some closure to this case!

[TheCars1986]

I thought the coroner said there wasn't enough alcohol in his system to say that he had been intoxicated at the time of his death. I wonder if he had some reaction to whatever he was drinking which knocked him unconscious for three days and that was enough time for the alcohol to pass through his system...?

[egswanso]

Originally Posted by mozartpc27

I have to confess this case has never interested me all that much, in that it seemed perfectly obvious what happened here: the kid went to a party where he had too much to drink, and the people at the party panicked because they could obviously be charged with his death. Why else the lady who threw the party - Susan - deny all knowledge of said party when asked the first time? In the end, they had to dump him.

Not really all that mysterious. I'm a little surprised that the police weren't able to put enough pressure on Susan to make her give up more information.

This is my opinion as well. Especially with the revelations in some of the articles posted herein. Kurt was hardly the choirboy presented in the segment. If Kurt had been drinking Everclear (which I remember from college) all day, he would have been totally wasted. Add in the other alcohol and drugs he likely did at the party and it's no surprise if he just passed out and choked on his own vomit.

I don't see murder here and the other crimes are SOL blown. If this scenario is correct, though, it would be nice for a partygoer to come forward and just give closure to the family.

[alistaircrane]

I think there is something more mysterious here than a simple alcohol overdose. Hopefully we will find the truth one day.

[sdb4884]

Originally Posted by egswanso

This is my opinion as well. Especially with the revelations in some of the articles posted herein. Kurt was hardly the choirboy presented in the segment. If Kurt had been drinking Everclear (which I remember from college) all day, he would have been totally wasted. Add in the other alcohol and drugs he likely did at the party and it's no surprise if he just passed out and choked on his own vomit.

I don't see murder here and the other crimes are SOL blown. If this scenario is correct, though, it would be nice for a partygoer to come forward and just give closure to the family.

Agree with you there.

[rubber4532]

If this was a simple O/D why are all the parties involved so secretive about it??? There's something more to this!