Was Crystal Spencer murdered?

[TracyLynnS]

I definitely have no problem believing that the wrong body was autopsied or the ME report on the wrong body was attributed to Crystal.

I just finished the book about Kevin Ives and Don Henry's train deaths and Fahmy Malak, the ME in their case, often went so far as to testify in court about wrong bodies and wrong tissue samples. I can see where this could happen in Crystal's case due to incompetence or overly heavy caseloads.

[TheCars1986]

It's interesting that the article mentions another neighbor who described what he thought sounded like someone who was "violently ill", and I don't remember if UM mentioned this other neighbor. If Crystal was in fact sick and trying to call her mother, perhaps she did die of some freak medical condition? This could be just like the Natasha Jennings case where someone out of the blue dies and there seems to be no apparent explanation or reason.

[jitters]

Originally Posted by LooksLikeCRicci

Given the clues that the sounds from Crystal's apartment continued for something like an hour... in rhythmic intervals... and that she was found partially clothed with the telephone cord wrapped around her... have we discussed the possibility that she may have been ACCIDENTALLY killed during some sexual asphyxia action?

As funny as that sounds, that is actually a possibility. Heh, it happened to David Carradine (just search him on Wikipedia).

But there is something wrong for sure. First off, why did it take over a week to find her? If she was in a relationship, didn't the boyfriend think it was a little odd that she never called? When I was in a relationship with my wife, we talked on the phone every single day and would see each other at least every other day. We definitely wouldn't go for a week without talking or seeing each other.

Second, why the heck wouldn't the people call 911? They could have just anonymously called just to say that they are hearing screams and they think the police should check it out.

I think it is possible that if she was getting tortured by someone, the the reason they didn't find evidence is because for one, her body was said to be badly decomposed (which I also find a little strange as it had only been a week). Also forensic technology was not nearly as advanced in 1988 as it is now.

Unfortunately, since her body was cremated, it cannot be re-examined with the benefits of modern technology. The fact that she was cremated probably eliminated all evidence that could really say whether or not she was murdered.

But then again, it could very well be that she did accidentally kill herself through some erotic asphyxiation... just like David Carradine.

[jitters]

I just rewatched this case, and a thought just occurred to me.

According to the bf, the autopsy report of Crystal Spencer said that she was 5' 7 and a well nourished 140 lbs. But in reality, Crystal was 5' and barely 100 lbs.

I've also thought it to be strange that the body they found to be severely decayed after only 1 week. Strangely, no one seems to think that this is a big deal, but I think it is.

Is it possible that Crystal Spencer was abducted (and subsequently killed somewhere else) and then a dead female body was planted so no one would think to find the real Crystal Spencer? If so, this could explain why the autopsy report said that Crystal was so much larger than she really was and it would explain why the body was so decayed.

I think it is also worth pointing out that according to the UM episode, the parents did not view Crystal's body because of the amount of decay. So it is entirely possible, that this was not the body of Crystal Spencer.

I also wonder if the boyfriend had something to do with it. Because I still find it odd that a week would pass before anyone would find Crystal; he didn't think it was weird that he didn't see her at all for over a week?

[elg0rd0]

Originally Posted by jitters

I just rewatched this case, and a thought just occurred to me.

According to the bf, the autopsy report of Crystal Spencer said that she was 5' 7 and a well nourished 140 lbs. But in reality, Crystal was 5' and barely 100 lbs.

I've also thought it to be strange that the body they found to be severely decayed after only 1 week. Strangely, no one seems to think that this is a big deal, but I think it is.

Is it possible that Crystal Spencer was abducted (and subsequently killed somewhere else) and then a dead female body was planted so no one would think to find the real Crystal Spencer? If so, this could explain why the autopsy report said that Crystal was so much larger than she really was and it would explain why the body was so decayed.

I think it is also worth pointing out that according to the UM episode, the parents did not view Crystal's body because of the amount of decay. So it is entirely possible, that this was not the body of Crystal Spencer.

I also wonder if the boyfriend had something to do with it. Because I still find it odd that a week would pass before anyone would find Crystal; he didn't think it was weird that he didn't see her at all for over a week?

I don't think she was abducted. In my opinion I honestly feel that the coronor's office messed up with their paperwork and her body was handled improperly. This would explain everything from the weight gain to the height gain and the stage of decomposition it was in.

If they didn't view the body because of decomposition, that would be another mess up but on the families part. Basically she was cremated without a positive ID. Parents didn't look at her and the coroners office more than likely messed up on the paperwork. Look no one really looked at how the coroners office handled protocol on bodies and evidence until the O.J. Simpson case.

Also in the segment it said that she was waiting for a job to go to Asia but no one had called her about when it would start. Her boyfriend new this, so it wouldn't seem strange if she got a call and had to leave right away and forget to call him. I don't think he had anything to do with it.

[jitters]

I realize no one can say with certainty about what happened. I also understand that the coroner's office could have made a mistake, as human error is always a possibility.

But how do you mistake someone who is 5' for being 5' 7? How do you mistake someone who is at most, 100 lbs for someone who is 140 lbs and with the additional description of being "well nourished"? And if her body wasn't that badly decayed, what made them think it was decayed to the point where it was not appropriate for viewing even for family?

It'd be one thing if the coroner's said she was 5' 2 and 110 lbs; these are within reason, but to be off by 7 inches and then off by 50 - 60 lbs is pretty extreme.

It could also be that the bf made up the story about her having to go to Asia just so he'd have an alibi incase he was asked why he didn't think it was suspicious that he didn't hear from her at all for so long. And even if this was the reason he thought that, didn't he think she'd call him when she got settled in Asia? Asia is not like some black hole where once you go, you can't make contact with people in the U.S. (being from Asia myself, I know).

Basically I think the idea that the coroner's office simply made a mistake brings up too many mysteries of its own. I still think it is entirely possible she was abducted/killed and then another that had already been dead for a while (to explain the decay) was planted and that person's body was 5' 7 and 140 lbs.

Although I do highly agree of one thing: the family made a huge mistake of cremating the body. I understanding why some people would want to cremate a body instead of giving a traditional burial, but when someone dies of mysterious circumstances, it really hinders any chance for second opinions.

[elg0rd0]

I understand what you're saying, but I still disagree with you. It's not a matter of mistaking the wrong body. It could be a simple case of the wrong name being put on the official death certificate. It still doesn't negate the fact that the chain of evidence was horribly broken when her body was allowed to be cremated without (to my knowledge) a positive ID.

The whole boyfriend thing makes zero sense. Why would her boyfriend abduct her and place a body the wrong physical attributes to his girlfriend? Yes it would be easy to get a hold of him in Asia. Here's the problem, a week isn't really a whole lot of time to not see someone or hear from someone. She was sick, she was waiting to hear about a job, he had work, probably a few meetings with his work, etc. Where I work now, I can go 2 weeks without seeing my boss. It's not that hard to believe that with everything she was going through and what he had in his personal life that they didn't communicate. It's not like they lived with each other.

[jitters]

Well just so you know, I'm not 100% sold on my theory either. I am just wondering if that has ever even occurred to anyone to look into. It does appear that the bf did not think it was her body as he is the one who brought up the discrepancies and said it wasn't her body based on the autopsy report.

Although it is entirely possible that the coroner's office just accidentally put her name on another deceased person who had those measurements; that's a lot more believable than than the coroners actually measuring her at an additional 7 inches of height and an additional 50 lbs or so.

Let's just say that I think both scenarios are within the realm of possibility. Going off of my theory, you ask why would the bf want to kill her... I can't say that I have a good answer for you. But then again, I do know that people commit crimes and murder all the time, and I don't understand those either... but they happen.

Why would he want to replace her body? So that it can look like she died and because the body was badly decayed, it would make identification tough. If the police think they already have her body, then they won't look for the person they think she is.

BTW, as for you going a week or 2 without seeing your boss is entirely different and not a good example. Do you actually go out of your way to see your boss or try to get a hold of him or her? When two people are in a relationship, especially when the relationship is fairly young, the two are smitten. Heck, I couldn't wait to hear from my wife every day and if I didn't hear from her in a few hours, it would seem like an eternity. There would be no way I'd go for over a week without trying to call her or see her. I think anyone who has ever been in a relationship would agree that this is strange.

Of course, I'm not saying that this all happened, I'm just saying that this is a possibility. The bottom line is that I agree with you: she shouldn't have been cremated without a positive ID, and in my opinion, she shouldn't have been cremated at all considering she died of mysterious circumstances. If she had a proper burial, there is a chance that she could have been exhumed during our present time and with the benefits of modern technology, we may have been able to find things that they didn't back then.

It is also entirely possible that she didn't just have a cold, but had something much worse, but only thought it was a cold (a lot of deadly illnesses start off with cold or flu-like symptoms) and she succumbed to that and whatever the disease was might have accelerated the decay process.

Just out of curiosity, do you think she was murdered or died of natural causes?

[TracyLynnS]

Just a couple quick observations on medical goof ups from my personal experience....

When my son was born in 87, the hospital put matching name tags on me and the baby. In the nursery, the boys were in blue bassinets and girls were in pink ones. The baby's name, mom's name, blood type, and whether they were bottle fed or nursed (along with other info) was on a color coded card attached to the top of the bassinet.

The day after he was born, the nurse brought him into my room. In a pink bassinet. She tried to hand me the baby, but looking at the pink bassinet, I already knew it wasn't my kid. I said, "I had a boy!" Turns out, my son had been dropped off in some other woman's room who didn't notice she was given the wrong baby.

In the late 90s, some gynecologist's office I had never been to started calling me to collect on unpaid medical bills. I went around and around on phone calls with these people explaining that I had never been their patient. They gave me some identifying info over the phone and I insisted that was not my info. Finally, they mailed me this other woman's entire medical file to PROVE I was the patient. This was after HIPAA laws were in effect. The file contained everything about her... her name, address, date of birth, social security number, medical insurance info, employment info, and all of her private gynecological ailments were there. The only thing I had in common with the woman was a name. We weren't even the same race. Multiple major mistakes by that doctor's office and they never accepted that they were wrong.

Just think about all the stories we hear about doctors amputating the wrong limbs, or removing the wrong lung, or medicating the wrong patient, releasing the wrong body to a funeral home for burial, etc.

And a few years ago, I remember a church van was involved in a fatal accident. For weeks, one family kept vigil at their injured daughter's bedside, while the other family buried their daughter, who'd died in the wreck. Eventually, the family realized the young woman they were visiting had been mis-identified and their daughter was actually dead, and buried under the other girl's name.

[jitters]

I'm not sure what the hesitancy is to at least consider the possibility that the theory I proposed could have happened. I mean, much stranger things have happened.

But here are the facts assuming everything is accurate:

1. The body was measured to be significantly larger than Crystal Spencer actually was even with the additional note that she was "well nourished". I.e. someone who is very filled out. You simply don't get that from someone who is 5' and less than 100 lbs.

2. The body was badly decayed after only a week, so much so that the family wasn't even allowed to view the body.

3. Because the family was not able to view the body, no positive ID was made, leading to the possibility that this was not the body of Spencer.

4. Even the BF thought it couldn't be the body of Spencer. And that makes sense. Let's say someone you're close to dies and you know that person is 6' and 200 lbs. But then when the body is described, people tell you that it was a 6' 7" male who weighs 260 lbs.... would you think that was the person you know, or would you think that is obviously someone else? I think it is safe to say that most people would assume the latter.

5. If the neighbors are being truthful, then they heard screams as if someone was being tortured or beaten on the night that Spencer would have died.

6. I think the bf is a suspect because he went for over a week without hearing from her. It also said when "she" was found, the phone had also been off the hook... did he not ever try to call her in over a week? Didn't he think it was suspicious that every time he called the phone would be busy? Wouldn't he think after a day or two of trying to get a hold of her that something was seriously wrong?

elg0rd0 says he can go 2 weeks without seeing his boss.. and I understand that, but is he in a relationship with his boss? I would be willing to be that if he decided to call his boss he could get a hold of him. People in a relationship aren't simply people working together. Anyone who has ever been in a relationship knows that when relationships are young, the two people are very smitten. There is simply no way I am buying he didn't hear from her in over a week and didn't think anything of it. Heck, when I was dating my wife and she and I were both in college at separate universities at the same time, and both of us also worked on top of that, we still managed to talk every single night and still saw each other just about every day. If we had gone all day without talking or seeing each other at all, we felt that was unacceptable.

So anyway, I think all the evidence put together gives my theory a possibility and certainly should not be simply dismissed. Like I said, even if my theory is true, much stranger things have happened on UM.

And I don't think it is that strange that someone abducted her for whatever reason, killed her, and replaced her body with another body that had been dead for a while to explain the decay and this would explain the massive discrepancy in the size of the body. It would also explain why the neighbors heard screams. It's not that far fetched.

And I realize that it could be as simple as the coroners made a mistake. I haven't ruled that out. Unfortunately since the body was cremated, we'll never really know.

[unsolved1981]

Without going through the entire thread, was I the only one that had red flags going off when an exotic dancer is said to be going 'do some work in Asia'? Always thought maybe it turned out she was supposed to be doing prostitution in Asia.

I think this was a murder, to answer the (very old) question of the OP.

[TracyLynnS]

Just for me, the the murderer switching bodies scenario is too far fetched. I know it's definitely been known to happen tho. I just think in this case it's easier to explain the discrepancy with accidentally switched paperwork at the ME's office. Wasn't this in Los Angeles? They have notoriously high caseloads and have been known to make similar mistakes.

IIRC, "well nourished" is just medical jargon used on autopsy reports. It isn't meant to describe the decedent as obese, overweight, very large, etc. I think it just means the person had access to decent food. They weren't found to be starved in some criminal way, they didn't suffer from medical neglect or condition like anorexia... things like that which would be important in discovering a cause of death. Even if the paperwork was for Crystal, at her very petite height and weight, she would have been medically described as "well nourished".

[elg0rd0]

Originally Posted by jitters

I'm not sure what the hesitancy is to at least consider the possibility that the theory I proposed could have happened. I mean, much stranger things have happened.

But here are the facts assuming everything is accurate:

1. The body was measured to be significantly larger than Crystal Spencer actually was even with the additional note that she was "well nourished". I.e. someone who is very filled out. You simply don't get that from someone who is 5' and less than 100 lbs.

2. The body was badly decayed after only a week, so much so that the family wasn't even allowed to view the body.

3. Because the family was not able to view the body, no positive ID was made, leading to the possibility that this was not the body of Spencer.

4. Even the BF thought it couldn't be the body of Spencer. And that makes sense. Let's say someone you're close to dies and you know that person is 6' and 200 lbs. But then when the body is described, people tell you that it was a 6' 7" male who weighs 260 lbs.... would you think that was the person you know, or would you think that is obviously someone else? I think it is safe to say that most people would assume the latter.

5. If the neighbors are being truthful, then they heard screams as if someone was being tortured or beaten on the night that Spencer would have died.

6. I think the bf is a suspect because he went for over a week without hearing from her. It also said when "she" was found, the phone had also been off the hook... did he not ever try to call her in over a week? Didn't he think it was suspicious that every time he called the phone would be busy? Wouldn't he think after a day or two of trying to get a hold of her that something was seriously wrong?

elg0rd0 says he can go 2 weeks without seeing his boss.. and I understand that, but is he in a relationship with his boss? I would be willing to be that if he decided to call his boss he could get a hold of him. People in a relationship aren't simply people working together. Anyone who has ever been in a relationship knows that when relationships are young, the two people are very smitten. There is simply no way I am buying he didn't hear from her in over a week and didn't think anything of it. Heck, when I was dating my wife and she and I were both in college at separate universities at the same time, and both of us also worked on top of that, we still managed to talk every single night and still saw each other just about every day. If we had gone all day without talking or seeing each other at all, we felt that was unacceptable.

So anyway, I think all the evidence put together gives my theory a possibility and certainly should not be simply dismissed. Like I said, even if my theory is true, much stranger things have happened on UM.

And I don't think it is that strange that someone abducted her for whatever reason, killed her, and replaced her body with another body that had been dead for a while to explain the decay and this would explain the massive discrepancy in the size of the body. It would also explain why the neighbors heard screams. It's not that far fetched.

And I realize that it could be as simple as the coroners made a mistake. I haven't ruled that out. Unfortunately since the body was cremated, we'll never really know.

If she was murdered, the killer would have obviously known who she was. How he/she made a bone head move to switch bodies and give red flags that the body miraculously grew 7" is beyond me. To me that's why it doesn't work. I also don't believe the boyfriend is a suspect because why would out of so many discrepancies. The lapd not investigate this further? No one, to my knowledge, has ever questioned the coroners office or the detectives as to the discrepancy. Maybe they did and for legal purposes, like a lawsuit don't want to comment at the moment? It wouldn't be the first time. Again no I am not in a relationship with my boss. But the boyfriend wasn't living with her either and in what appears to be a casual relationship. 2 weeks is not a super long amount of time to not see each other. I went a whole month with no contact with my ex-fiance simply because she got busy with her life and I had finals in college. It happens.

[elg0rd0]

I got around to reading the article a few posts back. There is no way that the body was switched. She was ID'd using finger print analysis and only 2 other bodies matched her description were positively identified. Interesting the article said that Crystal had an FBI file on her and that they had surveillance on her. From what I gathered from the article, I personally feel that she died of an unspecified illness. Her ex-boyfriend has gone through great lengths to investigate the case himself and I feel maybe he's holding on to much.

[TheCars1986]

Originally Posted by elg0rd0

I got around to reading the article a few posts back. There is no way that the body was switched. She was ID'd using finger print analysis and only 2 other bodies matched her description were positively identified. Interesting the article said that Crystal had an FBI file on her and that they had surveillance on her. From what I gathered from the article, I personally feel that she died of an unspecified illness. Her ex-boyfriend has gone through great lengths to investigate the case himself and I feel maybe he's holding on to much.

This is exactly what I think happened. Wonder why the FBI had a file on her though.