View Full Version : Charles Morgan's 2 dollar bill


Thiussat
02-02-2011, 02:13 PM
I was watching the Charles Morgan segment and found the $2 bill interesting. Since I have an interest in cryptography, it dawned on me that the bill was most likely a type of book cipher. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_cipher) This is, a code where the ciphertext consists of either numbers or letters describing which page, paragraph, and line in a book one should look for a particular word. Once you find that word, you move to the next word on some other page. Eventually all the words will make a message. The strength of this cipher depends on keeping which book is the codebook from any adversaries. If they know which book is being used, then breaking the code is easy. However, since there are so many books in the world, one could choose any of them as the codebook, which makes breaking the code difficult if not impossible (especially before the computer age).

This is the idea that was used in the infamous Beale Cipher. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beale_ciphers) A man supposedly named Thomas Jefferson Beale left three ciphertexts in the 1880's and claimed that if one could break them, one would find the location of a bunch of buried gold (which he claimed he buried in 1820). Two of his ciphers have been broken, but the third remains encrypted. Beale used the Declaration of Independence as his codebook for at least one of the ciphers. (Did UM ever do a story on Beale?).

At any rate, I think that Morgan's 2 dollar bill was definitely a cipher of some sort. As I said, I think it's a book cipher due to the mention of Ecclesiastes, which was written on the bill and also told to his wife by "green eyes" on the phone. The problem I am having is being able to read the 7 Spanish words Morgan wrote on the bill. Does anyone know what these 7 words are? I think if one puts those words together with Ecclesiastes 12:1-8, one might have a shot at breaking the code.

truthbtold
02-02-2011, 02:23 PM
UM did do a segment on Beale. However, in that segment, they said only 1 of the ciphers were solved and 2 remained a mystery. What are the 2 solved ciphers you speak of? What did they say? Was a second one solved relatively recently?

Thiussat
02-02-2011, 03:42 PM
UM did do a segment on Beale. However, in that segment, they said only 1 of the ciphers were solved and 2 remained a mystery. What are the 2 solved ciphers you speak of? What did they say? Was a second one solved relatively recently?

I don't know for sure. You might be right. I only used Beale as an example of what a book cipher is.

Here's what I have for the 7 words:

1. ACEBEDO (this means "a plantation of holly trees" in Spanish)
2. BEJA?AN (I can only partially read this. Any Spanish speakers have any idea on this?)
3. CAJERO (this means "cashier" in Spanish)
4. DUARTE (the only thing I can find is that DUARTE is a city in LA County, California)
5. ENCINAS (this means an "evergreen oak tree" in Spanish)
6. FUENTE (this means "fountain" in Spanish)
7. GRAD??? (Can only make out first 4 letters)

So I cannot read #2 and #7. And I am not sure about #1. Any ideas?

DarkDante
02-03-2011, 01:52 AM
Not sure if this would be of any help to you Thiussat there is some information included on the NBC version of this segment that was left out of the syndications including some speculation on the writings on the dollar bill.

They alleged that Morgan may have gotten swept up in the turbulent times in Arizona at the time and become involved in organized crime specifically the trafficking of narcotics. The named one of the potential organized crime syndicates that Morgan may have been involved in, which ties into what Don Devereux mentioned about "getting too close to the flame". At this point Stack also makes mention of the murder of another Arizona man: Don Bolles

There were also certain lines from the The Ecclesiastes 12 verses 1-8 highlighted by UM as possibly having some significance in regards to Chuck Morgan's fate:

men are afraid of heights
and of dangers in the streets...
Remember him—before the silver cord is severed,
or the golden bowl is broken;
the dust returns to the ground it came from,
and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

wiseguy182
02-03-2011, 05:24 AM
i found it interesting the words being with ABCDEFG. i wonder if there's some significance to that.

rhzunam
02-03-2011, 11:32 AM
I don't know for sure. You might be right. I only used Beale as an example of what a book cipher is.

Here's what I have for the 7 words:

1. ACEBEDO (this means "a plantation of holly trees" in Spanish)
2. BEJA?AN (I can only partially read this. Any Spanish speakers have any idea on this?)
3. CAJERO (this means "cashier" in Spanish)
4. DUARTE (the only thing I can find is that DUARTE is a city in LA County, California)
5. ENCINAS (this means an "evergreen oak tree" in Spanish)
6. FUENTE (this means "fountain" in Spanish)
7. GRAD??? (Can only make out first 4 letters)

So I cannot read #2 and #7. And I am not sure about #1. Any ideas?


I think they are all last names. Duarte is a common last name and I suggest that number 2 would be Bejarano. Acebedo is also pretty common. The only one I would say isn't is Cajero. And the last one.

MariposaLKB
02-03-2011, 02:02 PM
The only word in my Spanish dictionary from college that starts with "bej-" is bejuco, which can mean cane or whip. It is also a part of an idiomatic expression that means failing to get what you want. There is a verb form starting with those three letters that means to beat or thrash. Not remembering how to congugate verbs, I wonder if what appears on the two dollar bill could mean "beaten"? The online translator I tried was no help.

As for the last one, there are alot of words that start with those letters in Spanish. Many are cognates of English words having to do with graduation, gradation, gradual, etc. There is also a word for stairs, grada, and graduable which means adjustable.

rhzunam
02-03-2011, 11:35 PM
I just saw the Charles Morgan segment. It's definitely Bejarano. And the first name is Acevedo (another last name).

truthbtold
02-05-2011, 06:26 PM
I always thought that the "cypher" on the bill correlated with a specific bible in the hotel that "Green Eyes" had some involvement. Odds are that clues were left in a bible in a particular room in that hotel.

Thiussat
02-05-2011, 08:30 PM
I just saw the Charles Morgan segment. It's definitely Bejarano. And the first name is Acevedo (another last name).

Thanks for that. It was my understanding that Acevedo was a common misspelling of Acebedo. At any rate, it's pretty clear that he used a "V" and not a "B" in his spelling. The only one I am not sure of now is the last one. I have "GRADUAS" right now, as it's the closest real Spanish word I can find.

I always thought that the "cypher" on the bill correlated with a specific bible in the hotel that "Green Eyes" had some involvement. Odds are that clues were left in a bible in a particular room in that hotel.

Well, "Green Eyes" habitually called Morgan's wife and told her to read Ecclesiastes 12:1-8. She did not give any reason for doing so, but did reference that passage on numerous occasions. I am assuming it might be a key of some sort, but I don't know for sure.

Also, on the back of the $2 bill, Morgan marked 7 signers of the Declaration of Independence (1-7). I figured out who all of those people were and their corresponding numbers as he marked them. They are:

1. John Hancock
2. Charles Thomson
3. Benjamin Franklin
4. Thomas Jefferson
5. Robert Livingston
6. Roger Sherman
7. John Adams

It probably is not a coincidence that he had 7 Spanish names and then 7 signers of the DOI. The question now is how these two sets of names relate to each other and then how both relate to Ecclesiastes 12:1-8.

rhzunam
02-07-2011, 02:02 AM
Thanks for that. It was my understanding that Acevedo was a common misspelling of Acebedo. At any rate, it's pretty clear that he used a "V" and not a "B" in his spelling. The only one I am not sure of now is the last one. I have "GRADUAS" right now, as it's the closest real Spanish word I can find.


I think I've always seen it as Acevedo not Acebedo.

As for Graduas, could it be Graudar (which is Graduate in Spanish)?

garytelecastor
04-22-2011, 04:53 AM
The names on the $2 bill were:
1. Acevedo
2. Bejarano
3. Cajero
4. Duarte
5. Encinas
6. Fuente
7. Gradillas

In an article concerning the murder they referred to Eccl 12: 1-8 as having significance in the Freemasons:

Gilles

This is one of my favorite pieces of ritual, I printed an esoteric interpretation on the esoteric thread, which I have re-printed below. I must admit it is unusual for a Brother who has not gone through the chair to deliver it, I dont think I have ever seen it done by anyone other than the Chaplain, however please dont think I am being critical, I am not. When you deliver this piece well it will leave you with a tremendous sense of achievement, Good Luck to you.

Anyway, here goes;

The last chapter of Ecclesiastes is chapter 12. It is a literary masterpiece and is a perfect selection for that part of the 3rd degree in which it is used.

I must add that only about 1 Lodge in 6 I visit use this piece and I am not going to give away any part of the ceremony or at what point it is used. I have in my possesion an esoteric interpretation by W.Bro Rev F.A.Shade and I would like to share it with everyone.

Ecclesiastes Ch 12 v 1-7;

Remember now thy Creator in the days of thy youth while the evil days come not, nor the years draw nigh, when thou shalt say, I have no pleaseur in them.
While the sun, or the light, or the moon, or the stars be not darkened, nor the clouds return after the rain.
In the days when the keepers of the house shall tremble, and the strong men shall bow themselves, and the grinders cease because they are few, and those that look out of the windows be darkened.
And the doors shall be shut in the streets when the sound of the grinding is low, and he shall rise up at the voice of the bird, and all the daughters of music shall be brought low.
Also when they shall be afraid of that which is high and fears shall be in the way, and the almond tree will flourish, and the grasshopper shall be a burden and desire shall fail: because man goeth to his long home, and the mourners go about the streets.
Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the whell broken at the cistern.
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was; and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Comment
The verses are a most illuminating description of the physical body of a man suffering from the disabilities and the infirmaties of old age. They commence with an injunction to man to remember and to practise in his youth the duties he owes to his creator, which duties are taught in the first two degrees. Then the verse describes the approach of old age, when man loses the desire and faculty to enjoy the material pleasures of life and lacks the strength to give effect to the many lessons of life, as his body - described metaphorically as his house - is useless.

The keepers of the house, represent the shoulders, arms and hands, being to the body what guards and keepers are to a palace.

Shall tremble. In extreme old age man's limbs become paralysed and consequently tremble; for this reason he loses the power to defend himself.

The strong men shall bow them selves. The strong men are the legs that become bent as old age advances; man then walks with difficulty. Also, the back becomes hunched in old age and he walks with a stoop.

The grinders shall cease because they are few. The teeth which previously groung the food have now fallen out, and chewing the food is therefore extremely difficult.

Those that look out of the windows be darkened. The windows are obviously the eyes which, as time advances in old age, become dimmer and dimmer. Ultimately the eyes lose the faculty of sight.

The doors shall be shut - grinding is low. The doors are the lips, the streets are the mouth because it is the path or avenue through which food passes into the stomach, while the sound of the grinding is the feeble voice. It is evident that, having lost his teeth the old man cannot chew his food but noisily mumbles it with his lips closed to prevent any particles from falling out.

And he shall rise up at the voice of the bird. Noise does not disturb the young, but even the slightest sound will annoy old age, as steady nerves are absent. So great is wakefullness prevalent in the infirm that even the twittering of a bird will disturb sleep.

And all the daughters of music shall be brought low. The daughters of music are the ears. The voice becomes tremulous and feeble and the hearing difficult. Also, the ability to hear the upper vibrations in sound is lost.

They shall be afraid of that which is high Youth obtains enjoyment from scaling heights, but the aged dread doing so and regard height with alarm.

And fear shall be in the way. The old are filled with apprehensions of imaginary danger which they have neither the sight to avoid nor the strength to overcome. They are, therefore, full of fear whenever they venture out into the street.

The almond tree shall flourish. The almond tree commences to bloom in late Autumn and becomes a mass of white blossom in Winter. In the Winter of life the hair of the old similarly whitens and the head decomes frosted and crowned with a silvery crest.

The grasshopper shall be a burden. To feeble old age, the lightest thing, even a grasshopper or a locust, is an oppresive burden.

And desire shall fail. When youth has completely departed all appetites and desires cease. In ancient times it was a sacred duty 'to increase and multiply', and it was considered the greatest of misfortunes for either sex to become sterile.

Man goeth to his long home. The grave is naturally the last house, shelter and resting place for the material body.

The mourners go about the streets. It was an Eastern custom to employ mourners to make public lamentations in the streets for the dead. Actually, the passage alludes to the rattles in the throat, the mouth and throat being regarded as the street or road of the food, and the rattles were called the mourners because they are certain precursors of death.

The silver cord be loosed. Two explanations have been given to this phrase. One is that it is the string of the tongue. The other, and probably the more correct one, is taht it is the resplndent white cord- the spinal cord - which passes down the entire length of the backbone and which is liable in old age to be relaxed and weakened. There is another explanation, that the silver cord refers to the superphysical connection between the soul and the body, and which is often seen by clairvoyants and by those who are going through a near-death-experience.

The golden bowl be broken. By reason of its yellow colour, the brain is termed the golden bowl. In old age, the brain becomes unable to function and can therefore be regarded as broken.

The pitcher be broken at the fountain. The pitcher is the great vein that carries the blood to the right auricle of the heart, here described as the fountain.

The wheel broken at the cistern. The wheel is the aorta or great artery that receives its blood from the left ventricle of the heart or cistern and distributes it throughout the body. These last two expressions - breaking the pitcher and of the wheel- allude to the stoppage of the circulation of the blood, the last step in the decay, which is immediately followed by death. After death, "then shall the Spirit return to God who gave it."


The interpretation was prepared by Wor Bro. Very Rev. Frederick A Shade.

He goes on to write;


Ecclesesiastes 8. Vanityof vanities, saith the preacher; all is vanity.

13. Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.

14. For God shall bring every work into judgement, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

V.8. The author has made all earthly things small. His argument has come full circle. He prepeats his assertion that "all is vanity" with an air of finality. However, his melancholy refrain is not his verdict upon life in general but only upon the misguided human endeavour to treat the created world as an end in itself. And he remains assured, in spite of all the 'injustices of life under the sun that it will be well for those who fear God.' (8:12)

V13-14. The recitation then jumps to the last two verses of this final chapter. And so we have "the conclusion of the whole matter". Theory and practice will always be at odds, but what really matters is God; he sees everything, he knows everything.

The citation is read when a 2nd Degree Mason (Fellow Craft) is accepted as a Master Mason.

TracyLynnS
05-18-2011, 01:49 PM
Here's another thread on this case. I don't think it has any more info than is posted here, but I did ask a question there that no one had answered.

http://www.sitcomsonline.com/boards/showthread.php?t=274389&highlight=Charles+Morgan

ILikeTurtles
05-22-2011, 08:28 PM
What was the significance of it being a 2 dollar bill?

TracyLynnS
05-22-2011, 10:38 PM
What was the significance of it being a 2 dollar bill?

I think Thiussat's theory is pretty good, regarding the image on the back of the $2 bill being the portrait of the signing of the declaration of independence, showing 7 signers, and Charles Morgan's bill having 7 corresponding names written on it. It was probably chosen specifically due to that portrait.

Also, on the back of the $2 bill, Morgan marked 7 signers of the Declaration of Independence (1-7). I figured out who all of those people were and their corresponding numbers as he marked them. They are:

1. John Hancock
2. Charles Thomson
3. Benjamin Franklin
4. Thomas Jefferson
5. Robert Livingston
6. Roger Sherman
7. John Adams

It probably is not a coincidence that he had 7 Spanish names and then 7 signers of the DOI. The question now is how these two sets of names relate to each other and then how both relate to Ecclesiastes 12:1-8.

TracyLynnS
05-22-2011, 10:52 PM
What was the significance of it being a 2 dollar bill?


I looked up what I could find about US currency and why Charles Morgan would choose a $2 bill over any of the others. Possibly not by coincidence, the $2 bill is the only one with people as subjects of the portrait. All the other bills have buildings or numbers on the reverse:

$1 bill only has the word ONE written on the back

$5 bill = Lincoln Memorial

$10 bill = US Treasury Building

$20 bill = White House

$50 bill = US Capitol Building

$100 bill = Independence Hall, Philadelphia



I found a lot of photos of bills on this blog. Makes it easy for quick reference with images of most of the bills on one site:

http://vacations.com/2010/05/31/show-me-the-money-and-the-washington-d-c-monuments-on-the-green-back-backs/

ILikeTurtles
05-22-2011, 11:05 PM
Any updates on Don Devereux? I'm assuming he's retired, if still alive, at this point.

TracyLynnS
05-23-2011, 12:32 AM
i found it interesting the words being with ABCDEFG. i wonder if there's some significance to that.


This info probably has absolutely nothing to do with it, but musical notes only include A, B, C, D, E, F, G.

I think it's really unlikely that the 7 people he named just happened to have names that made up the first 7 letters of the alphabet. It's possible that those names were chosen specifically because A through G is 7 letters, corresponding to the numbers 1 through 7, and corresponding to the 7 signers.

But, why did he use spanish names beginning with A-G corresponding with signers 1 -7? In the spanish alphabet, the letters are A,B,C,Ch,D,E,F,G - 8 letters. Why would 7 spanish names be listed alphabetically by using the english alphabet?

Just thought of something. There was a bible verse reference on that $2 bill also, and the number 7, also repeatedly used on the $2 bill, is mentioned many times in the bible:

-God created the world in 7 days

-there were 7 years of plenty followed by 7 years of famine during Joseph's captivity in Egypt (after his brothers sold him into slavery over jealously regarding his "coat of many colors")

-God set aside the 7th day of the week as a holy day

-Lamech was 777 years old when he died

-God instructed Noah to take 7 of each of the "clean" animals (and only 2 of the "unclean") onto the ark, He waited 7 days before making it rain 40 days and 40 nights to flood the earth

-after the flood, the ark finally rested on a mountain in the 7th month; after 7 days, Noah sent out a dove to see if the waters had receded but they hadn't, 7 days later, he sent another dove

-Jacob's father in law made him work for him for 7 years before he would let him marry his daughter Rachael, then tricked him, making him marry the oldest daughter Leah instead and forcing him to work another 7 years for Rachael.

And all those 7s are just from part of the book of Genesis. If you want to see more biblical 7s, you can go to biblegateway.com and type "seven" into the keyword search. I knew the number figured prominently in the bible, but looking these up... there's a lot more 7s than I can count! lol I wonder if this is where the superstition of "Lucky 7" came from.

So, that little "sermon" to try to figure out if the bible verse on the $2 has a connection to the number 7, since that was also on the bill. Very strange. Could be a clue, but could be a coincidence.

Anyways, if he hadn't been murdered, I'd probably think he was playing "spy" games, or was paranoid that someone was out to get him. That incident where he was missing for a few days, then told his wife he was kidnapped and the perps painted his throat with a killer hallucinogenic that caused him to not be able to speak just adds to the mystery.

DALLASTEXAN!!
11-19-2011, 11:05 PM
could he have been identifying names of members of a "black" organization by writing the last names? perhaps he picked the declaration of independence because of the organization of founding men. perhaps he was referring to the black organization. then perhaps the map of a route was his attempt to give a traffic route? suicide doesn't make sense and leaving a 2 dollar bill in your underwear speaking in code doesn't make sense either unless he was trying to send someone else other than the killers a secret message that the public would not understand. A suicide note makes sense if it were suicide. It is possible that he was working for narcotic/money laundering traffickers and then was intercepted by the govt and then started working for them to avoid prosecution?? only to be killed in the process? of corse the other spin on the story is that he was working for fraudulent government officials which is possible but the chances of this would be remote if you ask me. I've never thought about the possibility that the government intercepted morgan and instead of arresting him he became valuable for their investigation and used him as a pawn to apprehend international/illegal traffickers. of corse they are not going to make this information public because no one knows what goes on behind the scenes in these cases.

TracyLynnS
11-20-2011, 01:49 AM
This case is quite fascinating. There are so many strange things that add to the mystery.

Morgan was a potential witness in a court case involving an organized crime boss.

After being abducted and assaulted, he finally decides to give some hints to his wife that he's secretly been working for the US gov't for the past few years. If this is true, why didn't the gov't train him or guide him? It seems he made amateur mistakes all along the way.

Organized crime was in the area, laundering money with ease due to a state law that provided a great loophole that kept the money from being traced.

Morgan was known to have worked for at least one mafia family in a way that assisted them in the money laundering.

This was the 1970s, and he was doing about a BILLION dollars in deals for the bad guys. Heck of a lot of money, there.

Sunglasses not belonging to Morgan were found at the death scene.

Morgan's tooth was found wrapped in a handkerchief in his car, IIRC.

The map drawn on $2 bill depicts an area between Tucson and Mexico, known for smuggling.

No fingerprints were found on the "suicide" gun. Not even Morgan's. And he was shot in the back of the head while wearing a bullet proof vest.

He showed Green Eyes a briefcase containing thousands in cash that he said would buy him out of the contract the mob had put out on his life. (I wonder if he really believed this. If the mafia wants you dead, you're dead. The theory that a hit man took the payment from the contractor, killed Morgan, then stole the money Morgan was hoping to buy his life with makes sense tho.)

The drug that the kidnappers used on Morgan's throat is just weird. What kind of hallucinogenic drug either destroys your nervous system and kills you or drives you insane while also preventing you from being able to eat or speak for days? LSD? I just have the feeling that if this happened, they lied to him about the possible effects. Maybe they just put an irritant on his throat that made it difficult to eat and talk until it healed. If they'd actually applied hallucinogenics, he would have been on a "trip", stoned, and pretty much not able to give his wife information in a coherent manner.

He told his father that if he ever disappeared, there was a letter that would explain everything, and then he disappeared that very day.

And the whole "cypher".... My mind just doesn't work that way and I have absolutely no talent when it comes to decoding these kinds of things. It's one of the most interesting aspects of the case, imo.

Don Devereux investigated this case. Did he or any one else ever write a book on it?

DALLASTEXAN!!
11-20-2011, 02:01 PM
This case is quite fascinating. There are so many strange things that add to the mystery.

Morgan was a potential witness in a court case involving an organized crime boss.

After being abducted and assaulted, he finally decides to give some hints to his wife that he's secretly been working for the US gov't for the past few years. If this is true, why didn't the gov't train him or guide him? It seems he made amateur mistakes all along the way.

Organized crime was in the area, laundering money with ease due to a state law that provided a great loophole that kept the money from being traced.

Morgan was known to have worked for at least one mafia family in a way that assisted them in the money laundering.

This was the 1970s, and he was doing about a BILLION dollars in deals for the bad guys. Heck of a lot of money, there.

Sunglasses not belonging to Morgan were found at the death scene.

Morgan's tooth was found wrapped in a handkerchief in his car, IIRC.

The map drawn on $2 bill depicts an area between Tucson and Mexico, known for smuggling.

No fingerprints were found on the "suicide" gun. Not even Morgan's. And he was shot in the back of the head while wearing a bullet proof vest.

He showed Green Eyes a briefcase containing thousands in cash that he said would buy him out of the contract the mob had put out on his life. (I wonder if he really believed this. If the mafia wants you dead, you're dead. The theory that a hit man took the payment from the contractor, killed Morgan, then stole the money Morgan was hoping to buy his life with makes sense tho.)

The drug that the kidnappers used on Morgan's throat is just weird. What kind of hallucinogenic drug either destroys your nervous system and kills you or drives you insane while also preventing you from being able to eat or speak for days? LSD? I just have the feeling that if this happened, they lied to him about the possible effects. Maybe they just put an irritant on his throat that made it difficult to eat and talk until it healed. If they'd actually applied hallucinogenics, he would have been on a "trip", stoned, and pretty much not able to give his wife information in a coherent manner.

He told his father that if he ever disappeared, there was a letter that would explain everything, and then he disappeared that very day.

And the whole "cypher".... My mind just doesn't work that way and I have absolutely no talent when it comes to decoding these kinds of things. It's one of the most interesting aspects of the case, imo.

Don Devereux investigated this case. Did he or any one else ever write a book on it?
I agree. I think that if he were working for the government it wasn't legitimate work. meaning he was not a trained agent. He was likely a pawn. They probably found him in a operation and used him to get more members of the organization or to try to take down the whole thing. this is not uncommon with international affairs or major operations. The government will use people either by force or to grant the immunity in return for trading out their illegal organization. As you know it doesn't always end well for the person. I honestly feel that this is what may have happened.

I recently read about a case in chicago where the DEA used two drug lords that had a major network in chicago. after seizing their operation the DEA used the lords to gain evidence against the sinaloa cartel in mexico...basically to connect the cartel to the operations in chicago and other USA areas. in addition to this information they were also able to obtain tape recorded convesations of high ranking cartel members planning terror plots against the USA and Mexico. This is just an example how government law enforcement works and it kind of reminds me of the charles morgan case....although morgan may have been killed in action.

Hops3098
11-21-2011, 12:43 PM
This case might be the most fascinating to me of all the UM cases. High Praise, I know.

I can't remember another time when 3 seperate UM segments were twisted together- Chuck Morgan, Danny Casolaro, and then the mistaken identity murder of Don Devereux's neighbor.

Another note- Stack referenced Don Bolles in the original segment, and Don Devereux is cited in many of the search results I got for that murder as well. It could just speak to how busy an investigative reporter he was in Arizona during that time, but it was pretty shocking when I found that.

ILikeTurtles
03-01-2012, 12:20 AM
How were you able to view the original NBC broadcast? (Assume you have seen it since 1988).

dynoguy88
03-01-2012, 12:03 PM
This case might be the most fascinating to me of all the UM cases. High Praise, I know.

I can't remember another time when 3 seperate UM segments were twisted together- Chuck Morgan, Danny Casolaro, and then the mistaken identity murder of Don Devereux's neighbor.

Indeed. I always found these 3 segments and their relation to each other fascinating. Although I was always confused over one connection. Shortly before his death, Casolaro asked Don Devereux to share information about Charles Morgan's illegal gold transactions but was murdered before it could be mailed. What did the Morgan saga have to do with Casolaro's investigation of Inslaw and the October Surprise? It couldn't have been a separate investigation at that time, could it?

ILikeTurtles
03-01-2012, 04:34 PM
It's very likely they relate because it's possible the same people were involved. Morgan's transactions were massive amounts of money to a lot of different people.

Drakken
10-31-2012, 12:29 PM
Call me skeptical, but didn't Charles Morgan's wife herself mention that the hallucinegic drug that Morgan was made to ingest, whatever it was, would either kill him or make him progressively and irreversibly go insane?

People don't need written code words to remember the letters ABCDEFG, nor do they need reminders about the number 7. I think that it was simply a man who got drugged and was expected to die, but instead survived but had his mind go wander because of the damage made by the drugs on his brain, going progressively paranoid and delusional as days came by.

Then a week later, hitmen came back to kidnap him again and finish the job.

MegtheEgg86
10-31-2012, 03:08 PM
Call me skeptical, but didn't Charles Morgan's wife herself mention that the hallucinegic drug that Morgan was made to ingest, whatever it was, would either kill him or make him progressively and irreversibly go insane?

People don't need written code words to remember the letters ABCDEFG, nor do they need reminders about the number 7. I think that it was simply a man who got drugged and was expected to die, but instead survived but had his mind go wander because of the damage made by the drugs on his brain, going progressively paranoid and delusional as days came by.

Then a week later, hitmen came back to kidnap him again and finish the job.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hallucinogen_persisting_perception_disorder

bell83
03-02-2018, 11:48 AM
The first thing I had thought of with the A-G names, and I may be COMPLETELY off base with this, is maybe it was just a partial simple phonetic alphabet that he/someone else was using? OR...could they have been on the bill from before he got it? Do we know it was his writing, or?

zack007attack
06-03-2019, 08:16 PM
Here's my idea about the clues on the $2 bill, based on trying to think outside the box.

The passage from Ecclesiastes is meant to describe the situation he was alluding to, based on subtle details within the passage and not necessarily the message conveyed by the passage itself.

"before the sun and the light
and the moon and the stars grow dark,
and the clouds return after the rain"
-This could describe a particular time and/or place amongst the Arizona desert, combined with the strange diagrams/roads drawn on the bill.

Remember himóbefore the silver cord is severed,
and the golden bowl is broken;
before the pitcher is shattered at the spring,
and the wheel broken at the well,
and the dust returns to the ground it came from,
and the spirit returns to God who gave it.
-This may describe the nature of the activites he was observing and/or connected to. Maybe involving gold, silver or other valuable/intrinsic items.

I think these clues left by Charles Morgan were in reference to a particular transaction or exchange being conducted by shady figures, after all Arizona was a haven for organized crime activity in the 70s.

The 7 Spanish names as well as the 1-7 numbers on the back could be some reference to describe the shady figures involved in the occurence.

5thcorps
06-05-2019, 03:39 PM
I've never heard before if Morgan was religious and knew the bible to that extent. You'd have to have read the bible extensively to be able to come up with such a reference that closely eludes to the situation he was dealing with.

bigted12
08-07-2019, 02:15 PM
Well thats the mystery, we don't know the context of the bible quote. when "green eyes" called ruth was this verse meant to ease her worries? explain to her that theres was something much greater in the world? or was it a code, is there someone out there who has or could look at the spanish names, the bible verse, the map, the 2 dollar bill and take 4 letters from one, 3 from another and get something from it? the morgans i assume were religious to an extent, i mean after she hung up the phone the first thing ruth did was to check her bible for that passage.

which means she was christian enough to have a bible, but not so into it, that she knew what the verse was without reading the bible. righr? many people think that the bible verse would have led ruth to find a note left for her on that page. but no

so that leaves two options, it was to make ruth feel better, or there is a code within the verse that ruth was meant to understand and take something from or someone else was...

TracyLynnS
11-20-2019, 06:58 PM
Hi everyone! I'm not dead! lol . I've just been spending a lot of my free time with the family. I've had grandkids born since I last visited here and I'm all about that life now! :)

ON TOPIC

So I haven't watched this segment in years but I do remember Green Eyes mispronouncing the book of Ecclesiastes. We've all been referencing the chapter and verses that were quoted and trying to figure out the "code". Well, just last week, I found out there's a book called Ecclesiasticus that sounds a lot more like the pronunciation in the segment.

Here's what Ecclesiasticus chapter 12:1-8 says:

When thou wilt do good know to whom thou doest it; so shalt thou be thanked for thy benefits.

2 Do good to the godly man, and thou shalt find a recompence; and if not from him, yet from the most High.

3 There can no good come to him that is always occupied in evil, nor to him that giveth no alms.

4 Give to the godly man, and help not a sinner.

5 Do well unto him that is lowly, but give not to the ungodly: hold back thy bread, and give it not unto him, lest he overmaster thee thereby: for else thou shalt receive twice as much evil for all the good thou shalt have done unto him.

6 For the most High hateth sinners, and will repay vengeance unto the ungodly, and keepeth them against the mighty day of their punishment.

7 Give unto the good, and help not the sinner.

8 A friend cannot be known in prosperity: and an enemy cannot be hidden in adversity.


What do you guys think? Was she mispronouncing the book in the Bible or did she mean for Charles' wife to look up this passage in Ecclesiasticus?

bigted12
11-20-2019, 07:05 PM
Thats not the right verse, the correct verse goes somewhere along the lines of "remember your creator in the days of your youth..."

TracyLynnS
11-20-2019, 07:51 PM
Thats not the right verse, the correct verse goes somewhere along the lines of "remember your creator in the days of your youth..."

The passage that begins with those words is from the book in the Bible titled Ecclesiastes. I just recently learned that there is a book titled Ecclesiasticus and since Green Eyes said "Ecclesiastes" in an odd way I was wondering if she really meant this book, Ecclesiasticus, and wasn't actually referencing the book in the Bible.

bigted12
11-20-2019, 08:12 PM
but is there a way of hearing the phone call? in the interview ruth morgan did with unsolved misteries she doesn't talk about the way "green eyes" says the word,

the passage that ruth said she was told, seems to talk about someone coming near to the end of his life, that you should believe in God in the days of your youth when it's easy to be carefree, forget God and then come looking for him when you know your days are numbered. having said that we don't know if the content of the passage is insignifcant and it's the number of the verse that serves as some kind of cold. and if you were in a position to put the spanish names together with the little map, the number of the passage then you'd have a code that would tell you something.

i've studied this case for years, even spoke to some cops and people involved, and i've never that she had a strange way of prononucing the word!

interestingly enough about 6 months ago a woman contacted me from tucson, she told me a history of maybe a dozen emails of how she believed her aunt was "green eyes" how she desappeared just after charles morgan died. how a few times she went to the park with her to see "uncle chuck" pretty interesting stuff

TracyLynnS
11-20-2019, 09:00 PM
but is there a way of hearing the phone call? in the interview ruth morgan did with unsolved misteries she doesn't talk about the way "green eyes" says the word


Dangit. I thought I'd found something. I just watched the segment. His wife said she was told, "Chuck is alright. Ecclesiastics 12:1-8." So it was the wife who mispronounced the title of the book during the segment. Also, Ecclesiastes is spelled correctly on the $2 bill so they're definitely quoting a book from the Bible.

I wish Ruth would have kicked out those "FBI" agents when they started tearing her house apart. Real agents would have been more respectful to a widow so soon after her husband's death.

Huskerz85
11-21-2019, 12:52 PM
Hi everyone! I'm not dead! lol . I've just been spending a lot of my free time with the family. I've had grandkids born since I last visited here and I'm all about that life now! :)

ON TOPIC

So I haven't watched this segment in years but I do remember Green Eyes mispronouncing the book of Ecclesiastes. We've all been referencing the chapter and verses that were quoted and trying to figure out the "code". Well, just last week, I found out there's a book called Ecclesiasticus that sounds a lot more like the pronunciation in the segment.

Here's what Ecclesiasticus chapter 12:1-8 says:

When thou wilt do good know to whom thou doest it; so shalt thou be thanked for thy benefits.

2 Do good to the godly man, and thou shalt find a recompence; and if not from him, yet from the most High.

3 There can no good come to him that is always occupied in evil, nor to him that giveth no alms.

4 Give to the godly man, and help not a sinner.

5 Do well unto him that is lowly, but give not to the ungodly: hold back thy bread, and give it not unto him, lest he overmaster thee thereby: for else thou shalt receive twice as much evil for all the good thou shalt have done unto him.

6 For the most High hateth sinners, and will repay vengeance unto the ungodly, and keepeth them against the mighty day of their punishment.

7 Give unto the good, and help not the sinner.

8 A friend cannot be known in prosperity: and an enemy cannot be hidden in adversity.


What do you guys think? Was she mispronouncing the book in the Bible or did she mean for Charles' wife to look up this passage in Ecclesiasticus?


Welcome back!! :wave:

I'm not sure what the point of the biblical references were, but freakbook came up with a pretty good theory here: https://www.sitcomsonline.com/boards/showthread.php?t=330638&page=2&highlight=charles+morgan


The rest of the above thread makes for fascinating reading, but in short, that theory goes as follows: Morgan was involved in some extremely shady dealings, though with who is up to debate. He got in over his head and at some point, became extremely paranoid. Fearful of being discovered or worse, he made the decision to kill himself, but concocted an elaborate ruse to make it look like murder so that his wife and kids would be in the clear and receive the insurance payout.

LooksLikeCRicci
11-22-2019, 02:05 AM
I’ve been remiss in my mod duties!

Welcome back, TracyLynn! :wave:

Welcome, BigTed! :wave:

TheCars1986
11-22-2019, 11:46 AM
Hi everyone! I'm not dead! lol . I've just been spending a lot of my free time with the family. I've had grandkids born since I last visited here and I'm all about that life now! :)

Wow! Welcome back!

Was she mispronouncing the book in the Bible or did she mean for Charles' wife to look up this passage in Ecclesiasticus?

I think it was the right passage, and that this was Charles' way of saying goodbye in a quasi-suicide note.

MegtheEgg86
11-26-2019, 01:18 AM
Dangit. I thought I'd found something. I just watched the segment. His wife said she was told, "Chuck is alright. Ecclesiastics 12:1-8." So it was the wife who mispronounced the title of the book during the segment. Also, Ecclesiastes is spelled correctly on the $2 bill so they're definitely quoting a book from the Bible.

I wish Ruth would have kicked out those "FBI" agents when they started tearing her house apart. Real agents would have been more respectful to a widow so soon after her husband's death.

Welcome back, Tracy!!

Ecclesiasticus is the old school name for what's normally called Sirach in more recent biblical translations, if anyone's wondering (it's part of the deuterocanon, which is accepted by most Catholics and Orthodox but not Protestants).

Pretty interesting that the Ecclesiasticus passage seems like it could be an absolutely perfect fit for this particular case, although it isn't related. I think it's a good illustration of the principle that the human mind has a natural disposition toward interpretation and symbolism. We love to try to make sense of cryptic things.

I've never really thought the passage was particularly important in the grand scheme of the case other than maybe giving insight into Morgan's possible state of mind, but it definitely is very haunting.

Todd Mueller
11-26-2019, 11:08 AM
Pretty interesting that the Ecclesiasticus passage seems like it could be an absolutely perfect fit for this particular case, although it isn't related.

I wonder... What if Charles's wife heard Green Eyes wrong and she actually said "Ecclesiasticus"? If she wasn't familiar with that name, maybe she heard "Ecclesiastes" instead.

The other issue is depending on which version of the bible you read, the words can be a little different. I wonder if that also could play into this. What is obvious in one version of the bible may seem irrelevant in another.

bigted12
11-27-2019, 12:09 PM
I wonder... What if Charles's wife heard Green Eyes wrong and she actually said "Ecclesiasticus"? If she wasn't familiar with that name, maybe she heard "Ecclesiastes" instead.


I dunno, i think the "original" bible verse is more fitting, but we don't understand the context of it. We don't know what "green eyes" knew. she called Ruth to tell her that Charles was ok, but then he died the day after, something that has always intriged me is how she calls ruth, "ruthie" which suggests on some level she knew ruth, she was was familar with her...


The most important thing to know is if the bible verse is meant to offer comfort to ruth, or if it's simply a code. the spanish names, the map, the bible verse. was the content of verse totally irrelevant? and the numbers "12.1" more meaningful to someone who could understand it?

Theres a video on youtube, like a podcast, i think it's trace evidence, well anyway in the comments theres a comment from someone claiming to be charles' daughter, the comment simply says "theres much more to this case and my family than was ever given out" a quick look at her account, has videos on there, bake sales in tucson...

What i'm saying is we only have maybe 60% of the story, and no matter what bible verse it is, we'll never understand the context!

MegtheEgg86
11-27-2019, 01:02 PM
What i'm saying is we only have maybe 60% of the story, and no matter what bible verse it is, we'll never understand the context!

Agreed.

Todd Mueller
11-28-2019, 11:59 AM
The $2 bill obviously meant something to Charles. My best guess is that he had something hidden that would be his lifeline (at least in his own mind). If he was helping to launder money, it was probably records of the real transactions or something like that. Maybe that's what he went to get that night in an attempt to save his life.

The bible verse is what is really out of left field here. Why not just say "Charles is ok?" or "Charles loves you... Take care of yourself." If the bible verse was there to give a clue or leave answers or reassurance, it didn't work. Unless CM's wife is playing dumb, she didn't seem to have an idea what that was all about. I suppose he was trying to cleverly convey a message without saying it but it went over everyone's head. Green Eyes may have just been the office secretary and not a secret agent or true accomplice.

This was one of my all-time favorite UM segments because it was kind of messed up and had so many weird clues. But I suspect it was nothing more that Charles helping to launder money for the mafia (or other criminals). He wanted something to protect himself so he hid records, video, audio tapes, etc. so that he could cover himself if it ever got too hot. However, he was naive and in the end he was simply killed to shut him up.

bigted12
11-28-2019, 01:12 PM
The bible verse in my opinion only has 3 possible meanings, 1. it was meant to offer some kind of comfort to ruth, 2. "green eyes" herself is a Christian and it's something more about her faith than offering comfort, or clues. and 3. it was never meant for ruth, it was something given to her, knowing it would be told to the police, to the press, and in doing so, get a message to someone, someone who was capable of putting all these clues together and then get something from it.

Ecclesiastes 12 is a pretty interesting verse. it's like a warning to not forget God in the days or our youth, and then come looking for him when we come towards the end of our lives, when we need him, which charles was. the verse talks about having fear of terrors on the highway, i suppose it's fitting, charles was both coming to the end of his life and had been paranoid, scared..... rightly so during the last month of his life...

The problem i have with the mafia and cartel theory is that if these people want you gone, you die. they don't send you home with a shoe missing and some strange chemical in your throat.

The biggest part of all this is who green eyes was, the fact she called ruth, "ruthie" suggests green eyes knew ruth on some level, for some reason i believe that charlies was with green eyes the first time he went missing, and just before he died, he spoke of ruth to her, in a way that made green eyes have the "confidence" needed to call her "ruthie"

it's so strange

bigted12
07-21-2020, 03:45 PM
a podcast talking about this case appeared in my youtube recomendations last night and i watched the video..

Theres a question that nobody has asked that would tell you so much, and its how did charles get back home the first time he went missing? he appears back at home after going missing with his hands tied together, his pants round his ankles! and missing a shoe, so it's safe to say that he didn't drive, that someone, his kidnappers took him home right? well that was awful nice of them!

what happened to his car? why would his later killers take him home? and yeah i get the logic of chuck not telling ruth about his dealings to protect her, but ruth didn't ask one single question about her husbands whereabouts? not one single question? nothing? why not? and if she did, why didn't she give this information to police and later to unsolved mysteries?

theres something so so so wrong about this mystery, someone is lying or withholding information. either ruth morgan was the most gullabe naive person on earth, or she was hiding something. because the real world doesn't play out like this does, mystery or not.

we're being told a fantasy story that doesn't make sense, because it's not true!

James T
07-24-2020, 02:54 AM
Either his wife was totally subservient to him to where she just blindly accepted everything he said & did, or she was looking for some kind of payout for wrongful death.

bigted12
07-24-2020, 03:06 PM
if we imagine for a second that for whatever reason, ruth morgan lied, that she lied about charles coming home that day in that state, the chemicals in his throat, the notes he gave her, the call from "green eyes" if you take all that away from this mystery, and we assume ruth lied, i mean we only have her word for it. and lets say she lied about the 2 fbi agents that went to her house. i mean theres no third party, theres nobody else, a neighbor, a work collague of charles, a friend, anyone who can back up or support even part of what she said. she is the start and end of this whole thing. if we assume that everything she said was a lie then...

then all we have is a dead man in the desert.

mozartpc27
07-24-2020, 10:13 PM
I was watching the Charles Morgan segment and found the $2 bill interesting. Since I have an interest in cryptography, it dawned on me that the bill was most likely a type of book cipher. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_cipher) This is, a code where the ciphertext consists of either numbers or letters describing which page, paragraph, and line in a book one should look for a particular word. Once you find that word, you move to the next word on some other page. Eventually all the words will make a message. The strength of this cipher depends on keeping which book is the codebook from any adversaries. If they know which book is being used, then breaking the code is easy. However, since there are so many books in the world, one could choose any of them as the codebook, which makes breaking the code difficult if not impossible (especially before the computer age).

This is the idea that was used in the infamous Beale Cipher. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beale_ciphers) A man supposedly named Thomas Jefferson Beale left three ciphertexts in the 1880's and claimed that if one could break them, one would find the location of a bunch of buried gold (which he claimed he buried in 1820). Two of his ciphers have been broken, but the third remains encrypted. Beale used the Declaration of Independence as his codebook for at least one of the ciphers. (Did UM ever do a story on Beale?).

At any rate, I think that Morgan's 2 dollar bill was definitely a cipher of some sort. As I said, I think it's a book cipher due to the mention of Ecclesiastes, which was written on the bill and also told to his wife by "green eyes" on the phone. The problem I am having is being able to read the 7 Spanish words Morgan wrote on the bill. Does anyone know what these 7 words are? I think if one puts those words together with Ecclesiastes 12:1-8, one might have a shot at breaking the code.

I donít know about any of this but I think Charles Morgan was a bit of a three dollar bill.

I kid, I kid, 9 year old post but this is excellent as always from Thiussat.

James T
07-26-2020, 10:12 AM
if we imagine for a second that for whatever reason, ruth morgan lied, that she lied about charles coming home that day in that state, the chemicals in his throat, the notes he gave her, the call from "green eyes" if you take all that away from this mystery, and we assume ruth lied, i mean we only have her word for it. and lets say she lied about the 2 fbi agents that went to her house. i mean theres no third party, theres nobody else, a neighbor, a work collague of charles, a friend, anyone who can back up or support even part of what she said. she is the start and end of this whole thing. if we assume that everything she said was a lie then...

then all we have is a dead man in the desert.

I don't think she lied about him coming home doing that routine, I have always thought that performance was mostly to stop her asking questions about where he had been & who he had been with-it is pretty obvious he was carrying on with Green Eyes & probably other women. I strongly doubt that anybody from the FBI or any group went to her house-I think that was her just making it up to keep the silly game he had been playing going &/or to infer some kind of government cover-up for a potential lawsuit. If it were criminals they would have just waited until she went out & turned the place over to make it look like a burglary, not knocked on the door letting her see them & be able to describe them.

bigted12
07-30-2020, 12:23 PM
The idea that chuck was having an affair and was with green eyes the first time he went missing and before he died, always seemed pretty realistic to me. but for him to come home in handcuffs talking about the CIA and strange chemicals in his throat, such an elaborate ruse, just because he was having an affair? why not fake some work seminar in some place out of town as an excuse? it's too much

And lets say it was infact true, it was all a ruse to have an affair how do we explain such a strange death? i'm sure you've watched at least a few episodes of unsolved mysteries, theres always at least 2 or 3 sides of the story, or 2 people who back up the same story.

lets say another family member, a work collague, a neighbor, a police officer, detecive, who narrates and tells his part of this story, but theres nobody else apart from ruth morgan. apart from the dead body in the desert, every single piece of information we have about all this comes from her and only her. theres not one single person out there who backs up even 1% of what she says. and when all this doesn't make any sense, and her husband is dead, we'd have to really look at her story.

PsychedelicShrugs
07-31-2020, 01:59 PM
I just watched this segment again and maybe I’m imagining things but I feel like Ruth Morgan’s eyes are giving a lot away. A couple of times she tells her story with that sad, helpless look and then they clear and narrow as if she’s examining the interviewer‘s reaction. Sometimes they clear up and get real focused for a word or two, like she’s breaking character. Not saying this proves she did anything, just that she really seems to be putting on an act and/or knows more than she’s saying.

That being said, the only way any of this story makes sense to me is if Ruth is at least involved, if not the perpetrator.

bigted12
07-31-2020, 03:00 PM
That being said, the only way any of this story makes sense to me is if Ruth is at least involved, if not the perpetrator.

exactly

What pulled me into this case was the insane mystery, strange chemicals, bible verses, maps, mysterious spanish names, someone going missing, "green eyes" the mob, the government, but we're too taken in by a story that only one person is telling us, theres nobody out there to back up anything ruth morgan said. normally we hear from another family member on unsolved mysteries, maybe a work collague, a friend... theres nobody, and we'd be insane to take her word as gospel.

We could have spent years analyzing a bible verse that was just something she made up. i'd love to know if charles had life insurance or something like that, taken out in the years before his death.

To be honest, watching the segment i don't really see her as an obvious liar, but it's obvious she's either lying or only telling a small percentage of what she knows.

PsychedelicShrugs
07-31-2020, 04:28 PM
Did they do a toxicology on him?

I think Ruth’s story could make sense if you removed the unknown players and replaced them with her. Not saying this is right, it’s just how my brain fits the pieces together, so please bear with me.

Maybe she knows all about his illegal activities, maybe he’s abusive or a habitual cheater. Maybe he doesn’t show up for three days and she snaps and drugs/poisons him when he returns, but he doesn’t die. Of course she’s not going to call the police or an ambulance if she did it and he’s alive to tell them. She spends the next week nursing him back to health, but when he recovers he’s so afraid for himself and his daughters that he starts driving them to and from school. Didn’t the episode say he told the school he was the only one allowed to pick them up? Why not Ruth?
Maybe the poison has caused him some brain damage and he’s writing notes and drawing maps because of memory loss. Maybe he drew the map on money so she wouldn’t notice it. Maybe he tucked the bill in his underwear to hide it from her. He might have put it there every single day for weeks before his death to keep it safe. We don’t know that it was only there the day of his death. But if you’re hiding notes in your undies, who are you hiding them from? Seems like someone with access to all other areas of your life.
Maybe the map leads to something he wanted to keep hidden from Ruth. And maybe the ABCDEFG thing is just a brain game he was playing to keep his mind sharp, thinking up names in alphabetical order?
The bible verse might just be his favourite, and he wrote it down because it brought him peace to think about it. If Ruth had seen the bill, she would know it was written there. Adding it into the fake phone call from Green Eyes just makes it seem more like a mysterious conspiracy that’s so Intriguing and unsolvab... hey everyone look over there away from Ruth!!

So maybe Ruth, idk, hired a hitman to kill him in the end, maybe she went out to the desert and did it herself. Then she just made up a severely wacky story to cover up everything she did in the last two months, because it was the best she could come up with after all the bizarre stuff she did.

bigted12
07-31-2020, 05:08 PM
[QUOTE=PsychedelicShrugs;5774490

Maybe she knows all about his illegal activities, maybe he’s abusive or a habitual cheater. Maybe he doesn’t show up for three days and she snaps and drugs/poisons him when he returns. [/QUOTE]


Maybe, but maybe all that was BS and it never happened, remember that nobody went to the police, nobody was told about this, well at least that we know of. so when ruth morgan told us that her husband went missing and then came home a week later, maybe this never happened, maybe he was at home the whole time. theres no police report, theres no former collague, neighbor or anyone who backs up this happen.

I think that if we put ourselves in ruth morgans shoes, we'd ask our wife or husband some very basic questions, and i know that supposedly chuck didn't want her to know too much for her own safety, but wouldn't you at least ask him where he was? in his kidnappers home, in a warehouse, in a government building, in a field, where? why did she not ask him basic questions? how did he get home that night, he didnt drive because he was handcuffed.

theres a huge problem with her not asking these basic questions about his whereabouts, and i don't even mean specifics, just anything.. if she didn't, it doesn't add up, if she did, she never gave the information to the police or unsolved mysteries.


that tells you it's fiction, the whole being kidnapped, the bible verses, the spanish names, the 2 dollar bill, green eyes, gives you a mystery, gives you a 3rd party. gives you the idea that someone was out to kill charles morgan.

but it all comes from a woman who didn't even want to ask her husband where he was, and has nobody to back her up, maybe all these things are just her lies and like you say, hired a hitman to kill her husband.

As for toxicology reports, i've never heard of anything like that, and even a google search doesn't show anything. to be honest there are some things that could point to a third party, i mean the unsolved mystery segment does say that charles was set to testify in trial. but what was that exactly?

I mentioned this a few posts back, but someone left a comment on the trace evidence podcast video about this case on youtube, which claims to be his daughter she says "theres much more to this case and my family then was ever given out"

her youtube channel has bake sales from tucson, same age, same everything, i think we're only being told 40% of what happened, for whatever reason that may be...

PsychedelicShrugs
07-31-2020, 05:33 PM
I said it was the only way i can make her story work, not that it’s how it happened. Good lies have truth in them to make them more believable. I can see a situation where that story is partly true but mostly fiction.

However, I’m not sure we can definitively say she never asked him his whereabouts if we’re assuming she’s lying about everything else she says.

On the other hand, supposing he was abusive to her, you don’t question your abuser because that’s a great way to get hurt. Again, not saying he was abusive, just that’s not abnormal in that scenario and I wouldn’t necessarily question it.

bigted12
07-31-2020, 05:50 PM
if she asked him where he was during this week or so, or lets say how he got home that night, i mean we know he didn't drive, because he was handcuffed, what kind of kidnappers give you ride home and if she did ask these things, 1. why was it never mentioned in unsolved mysteries, y 2. wouldn't it help solve the crime?

why did she appear on unsolved mysteries, a show thats based on well solving mysteries, if she didn't want to give up all the information she had? wouldn't she want her husbands murderers brought to justice? and wouldn't his location and how he got home that night tell us an awful lot?

you say she wouldn't question her abuser, not even when the government/mafia held him captive?! she was so terrifed of her husband she didn't ask him something so obvious, but not so scared that she killed him?

you're mixing theories, theories of a woman driven to kill her husband, and that of a man who was really kidnapped and killed by someone else because of what he knew, and it can't be both, he didn't have the mob, CIA and a vengeful wife after him all at once.

PsychedelicShrugs
07-31-2020, 06:04 PM
I donít remember saying I believed the kidnapping story or that the mob was after him. Again, Iím just saying this one hypothetical situation in which she was possibly abused or abusing him is the only way I can personally reconcile her story in my own mind.

Iím also confused by how you keep saying we canít believe the things she says and yet youíre using the kidnapping story she told as proof that it happened? Iím a bit lost.

Also, the UM segment shows him driving himself home with zip ties on his wrists. Now, Iím not saying thatís what happened, thatís just the only info I have on it, what they showed.

bigted12
07-31-2020, 06:20 PM
did you see the part of the segment where ruth opened the back door and he was handcuffed? it was one of those zip ties, where you can't move your hands, so how did he drive?

you're confused because you're mixing theories, i simply asked why ruth morgan wouldn't ask her husband where he's been, how he got home (based on the narrative from UM, that he was kidnapped by some shady organization) why didn't she at least ask some basic questions? and if she did, why wasn't this information given to us?

you replied "maybe she was scared of questioning her abuser"

but thats mixing 2 theories, that either ruth killed her abusive husband and made up this whole ruse, or he was infact kidnapped twice and killed by some sinister group.

but it can't be both right?

PsychedelicShrugs
07-31-2020, 06:31 PM
Well I apologise for misunderstanding your question about her not asking his whereabouts. I thought you were asking about the scenario I wrote, not the UM one. I don’t have an answer to that question right now. Sorry. My theories aren’t confused, I’m leaving the kidnapping and mob out of it completely and I misread what you were asking.

Once again, on the UM segment they show him getting out of the drivers seat with zip ties on. I watched it before I posted my last reply to be sure. This is not me being confused or trying to argue with anyone, it’s literally what they show on the tv and the only answer I could give. Not saying it’s what happened in real life.

Only thing I find confusing here is why we’re meant to discount Ruth’s entire story except for the kidnapping? Not being snarky, asking for clarity. If she made it all up, then why do details she gave about it matter?

bigted12
07-31-2020, 06:43 PM
i find it hard to believe that you don't understand this logic, i'll give it another try, your wife or husband goes missing for over a week, comes home in that state, can't talk, pants around his ankles and handcuffed. while he or she might not want to expose you to some of the high level sinister dealings that went on, maybe a specific transaction, figures, numbers, whatever, i assume you'd want to ask "where exactly were you?" "what happened?"

if she did that, which for me is "basic" then it should have been mentioned on unsolved mysteries, i mean she went there with the idea of catching her husbands killers right? this piece of information, like "well chuck said he was in a warehouse in bla bla bla avenue.." that could help massively! no?

i'm using this lack of logic, common sense, something she should have done, and didn't do, as a way of questioning her story, so yah, the details matter.

no matter what angle we wanna go down, because they could lead us to the truth

PsychedelicShrugs
07-31-2020, 07:08 PM
It might make it easier to believe if you knew I have cognitive disabilities that mean sometimes I misunderstand and ask lots of questions in an attempt to clarify. Sometimes the way one person phrases something makes no sense, but then someone else comes along and says it differently and i understand. Sorry. I’ll try not to ask too many questions going forward.
For what it’s worth, I understand the way you phrased it in the last post and I don’t disagree with you. This ain’t the hill I wanna die on.

bigted12
07-31-2020, 07:21 PM
ahh then i apologize, i didn't know...

i just find it strange that ruth didn't ask these rather basic questions of where her husband spent this time when he went missing, i think it would be something rather basic, if she didn't ask him them it's strange, if she did and knows where he was, why not mention it to unsolved mysteries so it could help with the case?

when you add that to the fact that the only person who is telling us this whole story, that chuck went missing, the phone call from green eyes, and noboby backs it up? add that all together and it doesn't make much sense.

PsychedelicShrugs
07-31-2020, 07:27 PM
Thanks. Sorry for being a pain in the butt.

If I understand now, something along the lines of if she made up this whole story, then her failing to mention asking him these questions is a glaring omission that points to her lying?

PsychedelicShrugs
07-31-2020, 07:30 PM
ahh then i apologize, i didn't know...

You werenít to know, itís just a mystery I could actually solve lol

bigted12
07-31-2020, 07:36 PM
maybe it doesn't mean she's lying, but it's very strange, like i say, your wife or husband returns home like chuck morgan did, and you wouldn't ask him simple questions? of where he was? i understand the idea that chuck may have wanted to keep certain things from her "to protect her"

but he had no problem with telling he worked for the government and the whole organized crime thing. i would have expected a simple "where were you?"

and then i would expect her to mention this either to the police or unsolved mysteries to help with the case, she didn't.

surely you've seen a fair few segments, there will be a few people interviewed, friends, family, work collagues, with this whole case theres only ruth, and theres too many inconsistences.

i think her either not asking chuck where he was, or not telling us where he was (if she knew) is just another thing that doesn't add up.

do you think the real world plays out the way were told all this did?

PsychedelicShrugs
07-31-2020, 07:44 PM
Gotcha.