the myths of caroline in the city

[waichingliu81]

- why were the last 2 seasons of this show so different from the first two?

- why was richard's love letter to caroline never mentioned again in the duration of the series?

- did anyone notice how much the main characters acted and changed so quickly from the last two seasons, in contrast to the first two seasons?

- why did caroline and richard show a lack of affection towards each other when they were a couple in season 4?

-why did the writers write off remo without an explanation to his absence in season 4?

- why would richard marry a spiteful, obnoxious woman such as Julia, when in the early seasons, there was no hint whatsoever that he would date or be attracted to a woman of her type?

- why was the fourth season so bad, it led to the show being cancelled- much to my dismay?

if you know the answers to these questions, feel free to share them on here

[TJL]

Caroline was a pretty good show. The cast was very funny, especially Malcolm Gets as the acerbic Richard.

The show was bounced around the schedule a lot during its run: Thursday night, Tuesday night, Monday 9PM, Monday 8:30PM, Monday 9PM, Monday 8:30 PM, and I think they tried to do a lot of things with the show plotwise to keep people interested.

During the years Caroline was on the air, there were a bunch of shows on NBC with basically the same plot - people living in the big city doing the romance thing. Friends was the king, Single Guy, Mad About You, Conrad Bloom, Just Shoot Me, Suddenly Susan... so it was pretty hard to keep things original and fresh.

Everybody was doing the will (the guy) and (the girl) finally admit they love each other and get together in time for sweeps week?

Caroline was good, but the storyline was old news.

[waichingliu81]

well in the US, the fact that the show had different time slots did affect the outcome of the show, although in truth, there were just too many changes being made that resulted in the quality of CITC to decline.

i think that what killed it though was the last season- it started off well but then eventually it turned into a silly soap-opera and i was not happy with the way the writers handled caroline and richard's relationship. i felt the way they went about it was completely wrong. though writers changed in each season and so that attributed to the downfall of caroline in the city.

then of course you had other similar shows such as suddenly susan, mad about you, dharma and greg- of which the romance angle of the show was similar to that of caroline in the city but for me were not that great in contrast to CITC. caroline in the city also got a lot of bad press and wasn't that well received by critics, nor by other sitcom fans in the US- which i thought was a little surprising because in europe for example this show has been a relative success overseas. thus, there are a lot of european fans from germany especially, sweden, holland to name

[Chocolate Moose]

The Letter - because Carolyn specifically aid she'd never mention it again.

The Weird Romance with the gorgeous Italian girl - there was something in it for Julia, IIRC - a Green Card or some such

[waichingliu81]

Originally Posted by Chocolate Moose

The Letter - because Carolyn specifically aid she'd never mention it again.

The Weird Romance with the gorgeous Italian girl - there was something in it for Julia, IIRC - a Green Card or some such

do you mean caroline's phone message? because it was richard who wrote that love letter, of which she never received. as for richard marrying julia, i too hated the idea of him getting married to someone as nasty as her, but i felt that from the show's perspective it was good because if richard had received caroline's message earlier on in the 3rd season, it wouldn't have been as interesting as it was.

as for richard's marriage to julia, well i'm glad it didn't last long. i hated julia, especially when she deleted caroline's message and was so relieved when it ended at the end of the third season.

at first i thought the whole 'richard fathering julia's baby' thing was a terrible idea, but afterwards, i went along with it and richard's outlook as a parent changed dramatically when he bonded with his son, which was great because beforehand, he hated children, and caroline wanted children and yet he said he only wanted just one child. the ending was just awful, but i do believe that caroline and richard did have a happy ending and got married- even though it didn't happen

[TJL]

Originally Posted by waichingliu81

i think that what killed it though was the last season- it started off well but then eventually it turned into a silly soap-opera and i was not happy with the way the writers handled caroline and richard's relationship. i felt the way they went about it was completely wrong. though writers changed in each season and so that attributed to the downfall of caroline in the city.

I think a lot of shows just don't know what to do when they finally get two characters together. It's easy to do a few seasons of "will they won't they finally do it" tension, some cliffhanger episodes, a false start or two, one character mad because the other character is dating someone, etc.

But to make two characters have a believable relationship when they finally get together...

[waichingliu81]

Originally Posted by TJL

I think a lot of shows just don't know what to do when they finally get two characters together. It's easy to do a few seasons of "will they won't they finally do it" tension, some cliffhanger episodes, a false start or two, one character mad because the other character is dating someone, etc.

But to make two characters have a believable relationship when they finally get together...

that's very true tom. with sitcoms, as soon as two people come together and fall in love, it is assumed that there is nothing left to watch afterwards. it has been done before in the past. i have to say that with all that unneccessary drama that occured in the last season, caroline and richard having problems in their relationship, randy's appearance, richard discovering he is fathering a child by his ex-wife, i would've forgave the writers if we have had a resolved ending to go with the show.

i think the main problem i had in regards to how the writers approached caroline and richard's relationship wasn't the fact that these two were completely different people in love with each other. but rather that they seemed to forget that for caroline and richard, it is very much possible that despite their differences, they could still work them out or put them aside because they loved each other enough to make things happen - and yet we got the impression that nothing good will come out of it. they've known each other for 4 years, and by the fourth season despite them having been workmates and good friends, their relationship was patchy. they were also arguing over the silliest things. i was bemused that they argued as much as they did as a couple, as before they'd fell in love.

nevertheless, that awful ending capped what was really dissapointing season and ratings for caroline in the city declined as the seasons went by.

[TJL]

I think unfortunatly, a lot of the NBC sitcoms at the time tried too hard with all the plot twists and cliffhanger episodes. They tried to infuse too much drama into their comedies - it seemed like everything that happened between Caroline and Richard was going to tear apart thier relationship.

Granted, it's not very interesting if you don't have much "situation" going on in a situation comedy, but too much conflict and too many dramatic plotpoints will turn off viewers.

[Chocolate Moose]

you don't mean myth, you mean mystery.

i've heard that romance is the kiss of death to a sitcom. look at drew carey.

[waichingliu81]

Originally Posted by TJL

I think unfortunatly, a lot of the NBC sitcoms at the time tried too hard with all the plot twists and cliffhanger episodes. They tried to infuse too much drama into their comedies - it seemed like everything that happened between Caroline and Richard was going to tear apart thier relationship.

Granted, it's not very interesting if you don't have much "situation" going on in a situation comedy, but too much conflict and too many dramatic plotpoints will turn off viewers.

i understand that these plot twists and turns occur for the sake of preventing the show and the narrative from going downhill later on, but you made a good point that the danger for any sitcom is when it stops becoming a sitcom altogether. if you look at the first two seasons of caroline in the city, it was just pure out and out comedy. when a sitcom takes itself too seriously then that is when it has jumped the shark. i didn't have a problem with season 3 because there was a resolution of some sort at the end.

but the fourth season was just drama and with richard, he seems to have bad luck with every woman he has dated, especially with caroline. i was annoyed by some people in regards to their comments about richard- yes he brought some of those problems on himself and caroline, but they also forgot that his upbringing wasn't great and he was struggling to make ends meet as an artist too.

the writers were to blame for messing up the characters- the level of inconsistencies, errors was apparent to see throughout seasons 3 and 4. i was very much let down by the lack of development they'd shown towards caroline and richard; they treated those characters as if they were not much use to each other.

by the time the original creator fred barron departed, after his involvement with season 1 and 2, the show was never the same again.

[waichingliu81]

Originally Posted by Chocolate Moose

you don't mean myth, you mean mystery.

i've heard that romance is the kiss of death to a sitcom. look at drew carey.

that's exactly the point i'd made when i said that when two people fall in love, it implies that there's nothing left to watch, because it's been done and when you look at it, it would've been appropriate had caroline in the city ended on a high note, running for 3 seasons, as opposed to 4. although the original intention was for CITC to last for 5 seasons the most

[Chocolate Moose]

5 seasons is at least 100 shows. that's a lot of story lines to come up with.

[waichingliu81]

Originally Posted by Chocolate Moose

5 seasons is at least 100 shows. that's a lot of story lines to come up with.

well when you think of it, there could've been a lot of potential storylines for the fifth season- richard adapting to life as a father to stefano, randy, annie and del's relationship, julia coming back into the picture and perhaps attempting to get her son back- although that would be something a lot of fans don't want to see, and with the presence of the baby, that would help bring caroline and richard much closer together, caroline giving birth even to richard's child. although, i would also bring up richard's letter, which was never mentioned after the second season. and so by and large there would've been no shortage of ideas and material to base the fifth season on

[leathompsonfan1]

Okay folks, those of you who live in the U.K. and have all the seasons on dvd, bare with me because I had a lot of catching up to do! I hardly replied to any topics because I would've had to base them on memory, lol! First off I just want to say that I'm thrilled to own the first season on dvd because I've waited a long time for its release! I think waichingliu81 brought up some really good questions about the show and it's original run of four seasons. I'm sure that different writers and directors contributed to the vast difference between seasons 3 & 4 and 1 & 2. I didn't watch much of season 4 because mainly I took it for granted that season five was a given despite miserable ratings! Also, I remember most of the action took place in the office and I didn't like that! Imagine my sadness when it was cancelled! Just food for thought but Richard mentions having a relationship with a Julia to Caroline after they return from Remo's in the pilot. Is this the same Julia from later seasons??? Although I loved the first season, I have to say that season 2 is by far my favorite!

[waichingliu81]

Originally Posted by leathompsonfan1

Okay folks, those of you who live in the U.K. and have all the seasons on dvd, bare with me because I had a lot of catching up to do! I hardly replied to any topics because I would've had to base them on memory, lol! First off I just want to say that I'm thrilled to own the first season on dvd because I've waited a long time for its release! I think waichingliu81 brought up some really good questions about the show and it's original run of four seasons. I'm sure that different writers and directors contributed to the vast difference between seasons 3 & 4 and 1 & 2. I didn't watch much of season 4 because mainly I took it for granted that season five was a given despite miserable ratings! Also, I remember most of the action took place in the office and I didn't like that! Imagine my sadness when it was cancelled! Just food for thought but Richard mentions having a relationship with a Julia to Caroline after they return from Remo's in the pilot. Is this the same Julia from later seasons??? Although I loved the first season, I have to say that season 2 is by far my favorite!

i initially bought the first season when it was first released in the uk 4 years ago and since then i now have completed my CITC dvd set. you're right leathompsonfan, it is difficult trying to discuss this show when you don't have access to the dvds because that is the only way one would be able to watch and analyse the episodes. well, if you discount the youtube clips that is.

the fact that the directors and writers changed so much in each season meant there was no consistency and throughout the story and plot itself, there were some really silly ideas thrown in, in an attempt to keep the show progressing, because it was implied that once caroline and richard got together- which they did in the last season, there was nothing else to watch afterwards.

as for season 4, i know how much CITC fans loathed it- but i thought it wasn't as bad as others have made out. sure, the last couple of episodes towards the end of season 4 sucked- not to mention ratings had declined- as you'd rightly pointed out, but i did like some of the episodes- most of which had caroline and richard together as a couple. which was really sweet and as i am a big caroline and richard 'shipper myself.

i too thought the idea of putting caroline and richard in a dull office was another 'jump the shark' moment. they were doing fine working in her apartment- so what was the actual logic in relocating them? we were so used to seeing them work in her loft for 3 seasons that all of sudden, the writers decided that a change was needed by bringing in the office. why? it just didn't work; i tried to like it but i just couldn't.

as for julia, yep this is the same julia richard was referring to, of whom had left him when he was in love with her, years before he met caroline, and the woman he later married in season 3.

btw, my favourite season is the first one, followed by season 3, then 2 and lastly the fourth