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Old 04-23-2007, 06:03 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edster2973
Whoa, chill out for a sec! There are reasons why they did what they did. I wish to refer you to a thread in the Happy Days forum, since a lot of discussion has been going on and I have no desire to re-type any of it:

http://www.sitcomsonline.com/boards/...d.php?t=198956

After reading this, you may still not agree it was a good investment, and that's entirely your perogative, but you'll at least understand why Paramount did what they did. It wasn't to be lazy or mean. Their hands were more or less tied in this.

Read on friend, especially my responses since some of the other posts are just people complaining. The ones that weren't I quoted in my responses. That should tell all...

Ed



I really believe that a EDITED DVD belongs in the Garbage can, especially when they don't have footage on the DVD that was seen in Syndication.
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Old 04-23-2007, 06:18 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TVResearcher
I really believe that a EDITED DVD belongs in the Garbage can, especially when they don't have footage on the DVD that was seen in Syndication.

Again, you're entitled to feel that way. I'm just explaining why they did what they did. It was either put out an edited DVD or nothing at all. Those that don't want edits don't have to buy it. But people are blaming Paramount and it's not their fault. Did you read any of the thread?

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Old 04-23-2007, 06:25 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edster2973
Again, you're entitled to feel that way. I'm just explaining why they did what they did. It was either put out an edited DVD or nothing at all. Those that don't want edits don't have to buy it. But people are blaming Paramount and it's not their fault. Did you read any of the thread?

Ed


Ed are you going to tell me that not having SEASON 2 realeased at all is not better than a Season 2 DVD that was released with several Cuts and holes in it? Come on Ed I know you are not going to tell me that
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Old 04-23-2007, 06:56 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TVResearcher
Ed are you going to tell me that not having SEASON 2 realeased at all is not better than a Season 2 DVD that was released with several Cuts and holes in it? Come on Ed I know you are not going to tell me that

Actually, I am. I bought the DVD, and the edits are only on like 2 or 3 episodes. Sure, it's not perfect, but it's not Paramount's fault. I'd rather have what I can get. About 90% of Season 2 was left intact, and I can live with that.

At least they let us know this upfront, unlike other shows like Alf, Mama's Family, and Roseanne Season 1.

I want complete episodes, but it's not going to happen because the music costs are too out of whack. I feel the show is strong enough to survive a few musical edits, but I realize some won't feel that way. But at least both sides can have a choice. I bought mine and enjoyed every minute of it. I hope for Season 3 very soon...


Ed
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Old 04-24-2007, 11:59 AM   #20
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What I can't understand, Ed, is if Paramount's hands are tied concerning music costs, then why are L&S's episodes shown with the original music in syndication? Does that mean that every channel that shows L&S repeats has to pay through the nose just to cover the extra cost of music copyrights? That doesn't make sense. Also, if there's such a problem with music costs, then why was L&S's first season complete with original music? If that first season had come out on DVD with changed music and edits because of extra music costs, I would now be able to accept the second season's present condition more. But giving us a complete first season and then an edited second season makes it very hard to accept or to understand. I just feel cheated. I'm a big L&S fan and I waited so long for the second season to come out on DVD and then when it does come out, I get a changed version so naturally I'm disappointed.

One more question: If the music costs are such a big problem, then why are some of L&S's complete and unedited episodes available on VHS? (As in the ten video series that was put out by Columbia House some years back.) I have nine of those videos and every episode on them is complete and unedited. If Paramount could put complete episodes out on video, why can't they put complete episodes out on DVD? There are just too many unanswered questions to make me satisfied that Paramount's hands are tied.
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Old 04-24-2007, 06:16 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigDealLucille
What I can't understand, Ed, is if Paramount's hands are tied concerning music costs, then why are L&S's episodes shown with the original music in syndication? Does that mean that every channel that shows L&S repeats has to pay through the nose just to cover the extra cost of music copyrights? That doesn't make sense.

It's a different issue altogether. Obviously, even before the show aired in prime time, there was such a thing as syndication, and any details were ironed out back then. They probably have it in their contract that the songs are allowed to be part of the episodes forever. And it's not like the show airing in syndication is the same thing as the show being sold on DVD, where there's money to be made. Do they make money when it airs on syndication? Only from the channel itself and the sponsors (commercials) that are aired. The DVD sets are a different thing altogether. Also, again, the DVD format did not exist, and therefore prior agreements with music is not covered. Easy as that!

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigDealLucille
Also, if there's such a problem with music costs, then why was L&S's first season complete with original music? If that first season had come out on DVD with changed music and edits because of extra music costs, I would now be able to accept the second season's present condition more. But giving us a complete first season and then an edited second season makes it very hard to accept or to understand.

As I've stated before, they tried doing the 1st season as complete as possible, and they paid through the nose for it, and the sales were still abysmal. Obviously, Paramount didn't feel it was worth it (can you blame them?) to continue paying the overly-expensive music costs for a show that isn't going to be a top seller. They lost a HUGE amount of money on the first season, and yet they want to still try to please the fans by releasing more. But they have to do it in a way that's cheaper for them. What other choice do they have? It's either do it without some of the original music or not release anything at all. It sucks big time!

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigDealLucille
I just feel cheated. I'm a big L&S fan and I waited so long for the second season to come out on DVD and then when it does come out, I get a changed version so naturally I'm disappointed.

It's understandable. I too am disappointed. I'm not trying to get you to not be. I just don't want you or anyone else wrongly blaming Paramount. They're caught between a rock and a hard place. They spent over $100,000.00 for the music rights to Happy Days Season 1 and didn't even make back 1/10th of that. Plus, there are other expenses to releasing shows on DVD that don't even involve the music. Again, they can't sell it at that great of a loss. It just wouldn't be smart.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigDealLucille
One more question: If the music costs are such a big problem, then why are some of L&S's complete and unedited episodes available on VHS? (As in the ten video series that was put out by Columbia House some years back.) I have nine of those videos and every episode on them is complete and unedited. If Paramount could put complete episodes out on video, why can't they put complete episodes out on DVD? There are just too many unanswered questions to make me satisfied that Paramount's hands are tied.

From what I've heard, Columbia House didn't even pay to release the whole series, and that was actually because of the music rights. They anticipated the show selling well and it didn't. Your episodes may be complete, but you probably have up to the first 2 or 3 seasons and that's all. Columbia doesn't offer the whole series and never will.

Columbia is a private market. The music royalty holders know that Columbia's customer base is smaller, and they charge less for the use of the songs. The regular DVDs are available nationwide, which increases the potential for more profits, and realizing this, the royalty holders see $$ in their eyes and adjust their fees accordingly. It's all a game unfortunately.

Also something to consider, Columbia was in a better position to recoup any financial loss. Not only were their fees lower, they also charged $20 or $30 per VHS cassette, and all you'd get for each cassette was 4 episodes. Not much of a gamble as far as profits go. Paramount stands to make only $30 for a whole season of episodes by comparison. See the difference?

I too belonged to Columbia House and bought the Wonder Woman collection which featured two 60 minute episodes each. The show ran for 3 seasons and Columbia ended up releasing the whole show EXCEPT for 5 episodes because the 5 episodes had music royalty issues. I was outraged at the time so I know fully well how frustrated you are.

Either way, I hope you understand more fully what's going on. You can choose to not like it, of course (I wish we had gotten the original full length episodes too!) but try to see that Paramount didn't really have a choice. In fact, if I were running the company, I would've ceased production on further seasons after suffering such a huge financial loss. They did not do that. They're still trying to do right by the fans, but they don't want to do it at such a loss to them. I think they should be commended for that. Any one of us would do the same.


Ed

Last edited by Edster2973 : 04-24-2007 at 09:26 PM.
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Old 04-24-2007, 06:22 PM   #22
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Ed I completely understand your point about season 1, it's cost so much to put it out there complete as possible and the fact that they didn't make up for it in sales probably led to the decision not to do the same with season 2.
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Old 04-24-2007, 07:28 PM   #23
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Ed, I too understand and I thank you for the full explanation and please don't think I'm being picky but I have one more question. If Paramount suffered such a huge money loss releasing L&S's first season complete, then why gamble on a stripped down version? Isn't it a possibility that Paramount stands to lose even more on a DVD set that isn't complete? I can't believe that a big company like Paramount is willing to gamble with that much money just to please L&S's fans. There had to have been some of kind of profit in the releasing of season one or at least the promise of a profit in releasing season two or they would have dropped it altogether. Business is business.
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Old 04-24-2007, 08:25 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TVResearcher
Ed I completely understand your point about season 1, it's cost so much to put it out there complete as possible and the fact that they didn't make up for it in sales probably led to the decision not to do the same with season 2.

Ahhh, someone else who sees the light. Thanks for that Solomon. I really appreciate it. Yes, they lost quite a bit, unfortunately. I'm not saying I like edited episodes, but given a choice between nothing and a set where 3 of the 24 eps are edited, I'll take the latter. It's better than nothing, after all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigDealLucille
Ed, I too understand and I thank you for the full explanation and please don't think I'm being picky but I have one more question. If Paramount suffered such a huge money loss releasing L&S's first season complete, then why gamble on a stripped down version? Isn't it a possibility that Paramount stands to lose even more on a DVD set that isn't complete? I can't believe that a big company like Paramount is willing to gamble with that much money just to please L&S's fans. There had to have been some of kind of profit in the releasing of season one or at least the promise of a profit in releasing season two or they would have dropped it altogether. Business is business.

Well, from what I've heard and I may be wrong (this is speculation on my part; I don't work for Paramount) but there were a few reasons. Firstly, Paramount was deluged with a plethora of requests from fans to release more seasons. Paramount is proud of the show (and its parent show Happy Days) and wished to comply with fans wishes, but they were stuck as to how to go about it.

Also, there was a merger of some sorts with Paramount or a company shake-up, and that caused a delay with Paramount's plans with all of the series it owns, not just Laverne & Shirely and Happy Days. So any counter plan to try to save both series in the DVD format was shelved for a while; hence the LONG delay.

Paramount was also aware that another classic TV sitcom, The Mary Tyler Moore Show, owned by FOX, had a similar situation where Season 1 was released but did poorly. After FOX sat on the series for a couple of years, they released a stripped down Season 2 set which was lower in price and not as expensive in packaging, and sales picked up. FOX realized that there had been an audience for the show but that they had went about it the wrong way. They then went on to release Seasons 3 & 4. Currently, only Seasons 5-7 remain unreleased, plus the show's spinoffs Rhoda, Phyllis (nobody really expects this show to be released) and Lou Grant.

SONY as well has had success with their classic TV releases (i.e., All in the Family, The Jeffersons and Sanford & Son, to name but a few), again released with bare bone extras (most had no extras) with an affordable price range of $20-$30.

Paramount saw this and figured they could try to do the same with its shows; however, their dilemma is that, even if the DVD sets outsold themselves like some of today's current hits, with the amount of money they would have to invest in music royalties alone, they'd never make back their investment, let alone see a profit.

So how do they sell their shows at the same price range and do as well as FOX and SONY? By decreasing as much of their cost as possible. Sadly, and Paramount is just as frustrated as anyone about this since they know they're bound to tick people off, that meant either altering a TON of music or leaving out scenes altogether. Again, they really had no choice.

Something similar has happened with the first season release of WKRP in Cincinnati where practically every episode is altered or edited. You should hear some of the fan backlash over it. It's a crappy situation but again, it's either cave in to the sin of expense and make adjustments or not release anything at all. Paramount knows some fans will choose not to buy the sets but they hope other potential fans will realize their dilemma and purchase them. We really have no choice in the matter. It's not like we'd be teaching Paramount a lesson if we refused to buy their sets, and it's not going to get us the "real" versions of the episodes. It's either take what they offer and be grateful for it or get nothing at all.

At least they're trying, and with the huge loss they suffered with the Season 1 releases, we owe them a huge thank-you. Any other normal business would've shelved future releases permanently.

And trust me, if you do buy the set, you'll be amazed at how crystal clear the episodes look. They did a beautiful job at restoring the episodes. That alone is worth the price!

Peace,

Ed

Last edited by Edster2973 : 04-24-2007 at 09:22 PM.
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Old 04-24-2007, 09:50 PM   #25
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Is there a detailed description of what has been edited out of each episode on the DVD?

I'm still debating on whether I should purchase it.
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Old 04-24-2007, 09:58 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jinxey
Is there a detailed description of what has been edited out of each episode on the DVD?

I'm still debating on whether I should purchase it.

I don't know offhand. It's only like 2 or 3 episodes at the most. Not a big deal since the show didn't have that much music to clear. The typical episode time is 24:30 or so and 2 or 3 episodes the time was about 22:00. Again, nothing major. I honestly wouldn't have noticed if I hadn't kept track of the time. The edits that were made were seamless and didn't detract from the viewing of the episodes.

I think you'll be pleasantly surprised should you decide to purchase it. The video quality alone is to die for...


Ed
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Old 04-25-2007, 05:33 PM   #27
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If it came down to offering us nothing, or offering us an edited DVD, I'd take the edited DVD any day. Was the background/ambiance music good for the show? Yes, it was a wonderful period mood-setter, however, the tunes were not the be all/end all of L&S.

I haven't watched all of my Season 2 discs yet (savoring them like a fine wine!), but I've watched a few eps and the only one that really caught my attention editing-wise was that they edited out Carmine singing "Once in Love with Amy" at the end of "Look Before You Leap" and editing in some very generic piano music. Had the ediitng been a little smoother, I wouldn't have cared a bit since the original song didn't add much to the show.

And yes, I will gleefully order Season 3 when/if it comes out, edited or not!

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Old 04-26-2007, 09:47 AM   #28
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I noticed that. I remembered that Carmine had been singing a song while Laverne gave the news to her father. The camera does show him holding a microphone but Carmine isn't singing.

I also noticed that in "Good Time Girls", I think there was a minor music substitution when Hector walks into the men's room at the pool hall. It's pretty brief but it sounds like they replaced something there.
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Old 05-19-2007, 09:09 PM   #29
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To be honest, the music cuts didn't bother me at all. I'd SOO MUCH rather Paramount do this and release the set, than not release it at all. In theory, the idea of a "complete season set" sounds great to me, but I'm just happy that we got this release at all (I honestly thought that season 1 would be the end of L&S on DVD...)
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Old 05-19-2007, 09:21 PM   #30
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Quote:
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To be honest, the music cuts didn't bother me at all. I'd SOO MUCH rather Paramount do this and release the set, than not release it at all. In theory, the idea of a "complete season set" sounds great to me, but I'm just happy that we got this release at all (I honestly thought that season 1 would be the end of L&S on DVD...)


But how would the set be complete if the music cuts shortened the eps? The set would be incomplete
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