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Old 01-30-2012, 01:23 PM   #46
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i disagree with your stance on his right to defend himself, but i agree with this. does an average 16-year-old even KNOW that pushing someone off of a bike can kill them? most kids would only think of the scrapes and bruises that they suffered in their childhood accidents. i doubt he had anyone's death on his mind. the man did what was necessary and shouldn't be shamed for it, but it takes quite a bit of ignorance/emotional bias to pass off the kid as an irreparable waste of existence over a robbery. a 16-year-old brain is years away from completed growth with plenty ability to be turned around given the right circumstances, and that's why his parents' loss is sympathizable and why there is no real win in the situation. i don't care if anyone disagrees. psychology is such an easy aspect to ignore when people are too morally inconvenienced by the reality of it, hence they usually only take it into account when explaining a victim's behavior and then deem it a 'bull**** excuse' when it's used to explain a perp's.
I'd say the average 16-year old knows that shoving an elderly man off his bike and then assaulting him can kill him. You're not giving teens enough credit. They realize that bad tumbles cause more than the boo boos they had as kiddies. They're not stupid. We're not either, so you can stop referring to this as a mere robbery. It was an assault too. Who knows what other horror was facing the poor old man had he not defended himself.

I agree that it would take quite a bit of ignorance/emotional bias to pass off the kid as an irreparable waste of existence over a robbery. The only problem with your statement is that nobody here said any such thing. Oh, and there's psychology involved with the thug too? Wow, who knew? I guess we're just a bunch of yahoos who don't know much about all that silly mind stuff.

You couch your insults to us in psycho-babble. Who here said that psychology doesn't come into play with the thugs? It comes into play with just about anything in life. Psych 101. Everyone knows that psychology is involved with the thug, but some of us just don't care. Despite your insults that we're too this and not enough that, we know all you do, and given our ages, a lot more. It's just that our sympathy lies with the victim.
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Old 01-30-2012, 02:11 PM   #47
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I would of done the same the man did, protect myself the best i can, even if it means shooting someone. These punks need to be taught a lesson.
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Old 01-30-2012, 02:35 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by Janice
I'd say the average 16-year old knows that shoving an elderly man off his bike and then assaulting him can kill him. You're not giving teens enough credit. They realize that bad tumbles cause more than the boo boos they had as kiddies. They're not stupid. We're not either, so you can stop referring to this as a mere robbery. It was an assault too. Who knows what other horror was facing the poor old man had he not defended himself.

I agree that it would take quite a bit of ignorance/emotional bias to pass off the kid as an irreparable waste of existence over a robbery. The only problem with your statement is that nobody here said any such thing. Oh, and there's psychology involved with the thug too? Wow, who knew? I guess we're just a bunch of yahoos who don't know much about all that silly mind stuff.

You couch your insults to us in psycho-babble. Who here said that psychology doesn't come into play with the thugs? It comes into play with just about anything in life. Psych 101. Everyone knows that psychology is involved with the thug, but some of us just don't care. Despite your insults that we're too this and not enough that, we know all you do, and given our ages, a lot more. It's just that our sympathy lies with the victim.
yawwwn i'm sure it's convenient to interpret my post as a personal attack on the others in this thread so that you can counter it with sarcasm, but that doesn't mean it was. so i really don't care what conclusions you assign to my judgment. i have ALWAYS commented on such issues from that kind of perspective on this board.

"you can stop referring to this as a mere robbery. It was an assault too." - my point was that he probably didn't intend for the man to die. fine if you disagree. and since you also apparently missed my take on the man defending himself, i stated twice in my post that the killing was justified because of the threat to his safety, even if it was unfortunate for the kid's family and potential future. your sympathy lies with the victim? so does mine. i'm just looking at the other side too and i don't care if i get crap for it.

Last edited by Hollow : 01-30-2012 at 02:57 PM.
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Old 01-30-2012, 03:08 PM   #49
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yawwwn i'm sure it's convenient to interpret my post as a personal attack on the others in this thread so that you can counter it with sarcasm, but that doesn't mean it was. so i really don't care what conclusions you assign to my judgment.
Your post wasn't much more than a personal attack. That's what you do. Instead of giving your opinion, you have to tell others that they're biased, ignorant, tell us you don't care if we disagree, etc. Your post was rude, accusatory and immature. It deserved to be met with sarcasm.
Quote:
"you can stop referring to this as a mere robbery. It was an assault too." - my point was that he probably didn't intend for the man to die. fine if you disagree. and since you also apparently missed my take on the man defending himself, i stated twice in my post that the killing was justified because of the threat to his safety, even if it was unfortunate for the kid's family and potential future. your sympathy lies with the victim? so does mine. i'm just looking at the other side too and i don't care if i get crap for it.
Nobody knows what the perp's intentions were. The old man's chances for getting away weren't getting any rosier, that's for sure. If you want to play head doctor on the dead perp, go for it. Just don't expect your insults to be welcomed by those who don't want to join you.
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Old 01-30-2012, 03:21 PM   #50
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I'm getting tried of hearing about punks like that deciding that they're bored, and going out and doing stuff like this.

Did the kid deserve to die? I don't know. Did he deserve to get shot? Heck yeah.

Pushing anyone off of a bike could itself lead to serious injury or death. Pushing an older person off of a bike increases the chances of that happening.

These punks sound like they were developing some bad habits, and chances are, they would have become more daring if they continued to get away with things.

One of the punks died, let's hear from the other two as to why they decided to push this guy off the bike and beat him up. I'd love to hear that explanation.

And why do the authorities constantly protect these punks by not putting their names out there? If you're a parent, would you want to know if one of your child's friends is involved in these activities?

I'm glad the old guy did what he did. Just like store owners that shoot the punks that rob them, I'm fine with it. Sometimes, innocent people get killed for no reason. These punks weren't innocent, and what happened to them, happened for a reason.

The alternative for the older guy would be to hold the punks at bay with his gun while he contacts the authorities on his cell, if he had one. But he'd already been beaten up, so hopefully, no charges will be filed against him. I suppose if he'd gotten his gun out while they were merely threatening him, that would have been the way to go. IF he had a cell with him. But the punks caught him off guard, so the shooting was justified imo

I agree with you Tweety.
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Old 01-30-2012, 03:24 PM   #51
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you have to tell others that they're biased, ignorant, tell us you don't care if we disagree, etc.
sounds like part of a standard debate. the word "disgusting" has been thrown around this thread too, you didn't seem to take issue with that. "instead of giving my opinion"? i counted at least six opinions in my post that had nothing to do with what other people thought.

Quote:
Nobody knows what the perp's intentions were. The old man's chances for getting away weren't getting any rosier, that's for sure. If you want to play head doctor on the dead perp, go for it. Just don't expect your insults to be welcomed by those who don't want to join you.
"I'd say the average 16-year old knows that shoving an elderly man off his bike and then assaulting him can kill him. They realize that bad tumbles cause more than the boo boos they had as kiddies. They're not stupid." if you can have theories about the kid's knowledge and intentions, so can i.
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Old 01-30-2012, 03:36 PM   #52
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I just want to clarify something - it's not that I side with the three teens - I'm not that psychotic. I just feel sorry that the kid had to die and I think the whole thing is a tragedy. I know I wasn't being very clear and a lot of my opinions got twisted. I'm just sorry that anyone had to die, and the fact that it was a child and people were acting as though they were happy about it got my blood pressure going.
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Old 01-30-2012, 03:41 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by Janice
I actually don't wish more died; I was being facetious there.

It was still an ugly remark, Janice, especially considering the tone the conversation had already taken.
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Old 01-30-2012, 03:45 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Liza
I just want to clarify something - it's not that I side with the three teens - I'm not that psychotic. I just feel sorry that the kid had to die and I think the whole thing is a tragedy. I know I wasn't being very clear and a lot of my opinions got twisted. I'm just sorry that anyone had to die, and the fact that it was a child and people were acting as though they were happy about it got my blood pressure going.

I haven't read all the posts about it, but I hear you Liza; no need to clarify. It appears to me a case of self defense, but tragic all around nonetheless.
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Old 01-30-2012, 03:51 PM   #55
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sounds like part of a standard debate. the word "disgusting" has been thrown around this thread too, you didn't seem to take issue with that. "instead of giving my opinion"? i counted at least six opinions in my post that had nothing to do with what other people thought.
I saw where one member called another a disgusting person. I was going to issue a warning, but saw that they worked it out.

It was meant as, "Instead of simply giving your opinion without the insults...." That was easy enough for you to figure out.
Quote:
"I'd say the average 16-year old knows that shoving an elderly man off his bike and then assaulting him can kill him. They realize that bad tumbles cause more than the boo boos they had as kiddies. They're not stupid." if you can have theories about the kid's knowledge and intentions, so can i.

I don't care if you have an opinion. That's why we're all here. What I take issue is that you have to toss in the insults and imply or even say that you know so much more than everyone else. You do that by saying we don't know basic things, like psychology applies to the perp too....or we know it, but ignore it because....that last big run-on sentence in your first post. I'll copy and paste.

psychology is such an easy aspect to ignore when people are too morally inconvenienced by the reality of it, hence they usually only take it into account when explaining a victim's behavior and then deem it a 'bull**** excuse' when it's used to explain a perp's.

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Old 01-30-2012, 03:53 PM   #56
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It was still an ugly remark, Janice, especially considering the tone the conversation had already taken.
You're a fine one to talk about ugly remarks, after what you said to a fellow member.
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Old 01-30-2012, 03:56 PM   #57
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You're a fine one to talk about ugly remarks, after what you said to a fellow member.

And I apologized for them. They weren't meant personally, I was extremely worked up yesterday.

I just think your cracking a joke about a teenager's death is very low.
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Old 01-30-2012, 04:01 PM   #58
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And I apologized for them. They weren't meant personally, I was extremely worked up yesterday.

I just think your cracking a joke about a teenager's death is very low.
We all have problems. That doesn't give you the right to come here and call a member a disgusting person. I didn't make fun of a teenager's death. I said too bad he missed a few or something like that. You don't like it, so be it. I'll sleep fine tonight.
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Old 01-30-2012, 04:10 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Janice
We all have problems. That doesn't give you the right to come here and call a member a disgusting person. I didn't make fun of a teenager's death. I said too bad he missed a few or something like that. You don't like it, so be it. I'll sleep fine tonight.

I didn't mean to call him disgusting, I called his views disgusting, which you could see if you'd bothered to read all of the posts. And I still think what you said was low, but as I've said I was really worked up yesterday and was being extremely touchy about things that I normally wouldn't have been.
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Old 01-30-2012, 04:15 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by Janice
I saw where one member called another a disgusting person. I was going to issue a warning, but saw that they worked it out.

It was meant as, "Instead of simply giving your opinion without the insults...." That was easy enough for you to figure out.
she corrected herself by saying she meant the other poster's values were disgusting. that's not an attack, but calling someone ignorant is?

Quote:
I don't care if you have an opinion. That's why we're all here. What I take issue is that you have to toss in the insults and imply or even say that you know so much more than everyone else. You do that by saying we don't know basic things, like psychology applies to the perp too....or we know it, but ignore it because....that last big run-on sentence in your first post. I'll copy and paste.

psychology is such an easy aspect to ignore when people are too morally inconvenienced by the reality of it, hence they usually only take it into account when explaining a victim's behavior and then deem it a 'bull**** excuse' when it's used to explain a perp's.

i don't particularly care if you want to try to send me the message that it takes an arrogant person who thinks they know more than everyone to point out facts in a debate. i didn't say anyone didn't KNOW anything about psychology, i said that people (in general) tend to IGNORE it when it inconveniences them. and that's a supported fact. fine if it doesn't apply to your stance in this debate. but it happens in cases like this and that's why i mentioned it.
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