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Old 05-10-2013, 01:57 PM   #31
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Quote:
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I agree with DarkDante...

Eugene Kvet was found in a different part of the ravine (at the bottom of a steep hill). It is believed he either fell or was pushed over the steep hill by some troublemakers.

I don't think their deaths are related. These occurrences were in a section of Cleveland. There's a lot of people around so a lot of different things can happen to a lot of different people.
Yes, I tend to agree with DarkDante here as well. Eugene Kvet was much younger than Kurt as well, wasn't he? It doesn't seem like they'd have much in common, although it was well-reported Kurt was physically a bit on the slight side.
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Old 05-10-2013, 09:15 PM   #32
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Well something in this case needs to link back to the party that Kurt attended at the duplex and more importantly the people at that party. The fact that Kurt merely had a negative reaction to some substance he had taken at the party alone is not justification as to why the other people at the party did not try to get him to a hospital.

Unless of course he was given some type of illegal substance at the party by someone and then had the negative reaction to it which eventually resulted in his death some days later.

The point being there has to have been a reason why at no point was any attempt made to get Sova medical attention. I fully believe that Kurt Sova was alive for several days after he attended the party as the autopsy states. I believe he was in the basement for the duration of that time due to a failed attempt by individuals at the party to bring him back to health. The obvious question being is that if Kurt Sova was that ill, why at no point was proper medical attention sought? The only thing I can think of is during the time Kurt was missing, he was actually in the basement of the duplex and for all intents and purposes was already dead (read: non-responsive/brain dead) but hadn't actually expired.

I think another slant to this is that the people at the party realized almost from the beginning that Kurt wouldn't have been able to have been brought around so to speak by medical attention and instead of implicating themselves if they indeed were responsible for introducing the offending substance to Kurt in the first place, merely allowed him to die in the basement.
There might not be any justification but that doesn't mean it didn't happen. I could see people stupidly trying to nurse him back to health and then having complications and panicking after he died.
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Old 05-10-2013, 09:30 PM   #33
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There might not be any justification but that doesn't mean it didn't happen. I could see people stupidly trying to nurse him back to health and then having complications and panicking after he died.
It's possible but I feel that the theory I advanced is far more probable. I'll admit we probably weren't dealing with any rocket scientists either way here but I still subscribe to the theory of human decency that if all things being equal if there was any chance to get Sova help without implicating themselves, the parties in question would've gotten Kurt Sova to a hospital.

I'll admit I was by no means as smart as I would've liked to think I was as a teenager but even I would've known that I would have not been able to bring about a victim of an overdose without any proper medical training or the obvious advantages that being taken to a hospital can provide to an overdose victim. It is therefore my assumption that the individuals at this part also realized that Kurt was in dire straits but chose not to seek medical attention for him in an effort not to tie themselves in any way to his dire condition.
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Old 05-11-2013, 01:33 AM   #34
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I think Eugene Kvet is an unnecessary addition to this case.
huh?

you don't think UM should attempt to find the killer of a little boy? This, after just stating that animal segments were "borderline stupidity" because UM could have used the time to find a criminal or missing person?

Please explain.
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Old 05-11-2013, 03:07 AM   #35
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huh?

you don't think UM should attempt to find the killer of a little boy? This, after just stating that animal segments were "borderline stupidity" because UM could have used the time to find a criminal or missing person?

Please explain.
I just don't think it had anything to do with the case. I certainly would champion any attempt by UM to find the killer(s) of Eugene Kvet but personally have never felt that his death is in any way related to Kurt Sova except for the fact they happened in the same community and both involved a missing shoe which in the case of Sova could just boil down to the fact that in the haste of moving his body from one location to another the missing shoe was left behind or perhaps couldn't be found to begin with.

Personally I would like to know more about the Eugene Kvet case and would be willing to amend my statement that the insertion of Kvet into this segment was unnecessary if a correlation between both cases could be proven.

Alternatively I wouldn't have minded if Eugene Kvet had gotten his own "Unsolved Mysteries" segment where they could've delved more into the back story of his death where we could examine his case on it's own merits. Indeed, the only mentions of Kvet that I have ever been able to find are as almost postscripts to the Sova case.

So in the spirit of that, I'm going to start a Eugene Kvet thread.
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Old 05-11-2013, 05:38 AM   #36
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I think "Franco" is like most eyewitnesses on UM: He is mistaken. I doubt Kurt was alive at that point, and if he was, he certainly wasn't up and about and hitching rides with people. I think the fact that Kurt didn't acknowledge him when Franco called for him tells a person everything they need to know.

One thing about this case though: I don't think anybody at the party ever denied Kurt's presence there. That seems to dispel the theory of some huge cover-up. I think if there was a huge cover-up involving a lot of people, the smarter thing for them to do was state Kurt never showed up at the party in the first place. Heck, his mother seemed to be unawares, so that would jibe with that. Given the volume of people at the party (it must have been high - pun not intended), it seems someone would have blabbed by now. But I really don't know what to think.

But I can understand why nobody was charged. There were a lot of people at the party and it would be darn near impossible to say who had what involvement in it. Who gave him the the drinks/drugs illegagly, who moved the body, etc. I doubt we'll ever know. It can't even be disproven that Kurt may have tried to walk home on his own accord and died from the elements. The cause of death was undeterminable after all.

One weird thing though: wasn't he found shirtless? And no shoes? This was in November in Ohio, which is not warm. Even being in someone's basement at that time of year he probably would have froze his nurples off.



Something just doesn't add up.
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Old 05-11-2013, 08:34 AM   #37
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I think "Franco" is like most eyewitnesses on UM: He is mistaken. I doubt Kurt was alive at that point, and if he was, he certainly wasn't up and about and hitching rides with people. I think the fact that Kurt didn't acknowledge him when Franco called for him tells a person everything they need to know.

One thing about this case though: I don't think anybody at the party ever denied Kurt's presence there. That seems to dispel the theory of some huge cover-up. I think if there was a huge cover-up involving a lot of people, the smarter thing for them to do was state Kurt never showed up at the party in the first place. Heck, his mother seemed to be unawares, so that would jibe with that. Given the volume of people at the party (it must have been high - pun not intended), it seems someone would have blabbed by now. But I really don't know what to think.

But I can understand why nobody was charged. There were a lot of people at the party and it would be darn near impossible to say who had what involvement in it. Who gave him the the drinks/drugs illegagly, who moved the body, etc. I doubt we'll ever know. It can't even be disproven that Kurt may have tried to walk home on his own accord and died from the elements. The cause of death was undeterminable after all.

One weird thing though: wasn't he found shirtless? And no shoes? This was in November in Ohio, which is not warm. Even being in someone's basement at that time of year he probably would have froze his nurples off.



Something just doesn't add up.
I believe he had his shirt on and was missing one shoe (his right?) which I've always ascribed the fact that as he was being transported from the basement to the ravine, the shoe popped off somewhere and the people who put him down there certainly weren't going to return to the ravine a second time to dump the missing shoe as well. They probably just discarded it somewhere.

If you read the other thread on the Kurt Sova case that is far more detailed than this one, there is a post allegedly by an individual who grew up with the Sova brothers and was aware of the scene that they all grew up in. According to this individual the town of Newburgh Heights, Ohio at the time was littered with drugs and the Sova brothers all partook in the drug scene although not in any manner in which to say they were addicts or anything like that.


I don't think there is a huge-cover up in this case either. In fact I think perhaps only a small handful of people know exactly what happened to Kurt at that party that night in terms of what exactly caused his death. But that being said I still stand firm in my belief that it was individuals at the party that kept him near-death for several days after the party and then when he expired transferred his body down to the ravine. I think the eyewitness account from the woman who witnessed two teenagers carrying another teenage boy with a missing shoe down towards the ravine in the days after Kurt Sova vanished is very credible. Sova didn't die in that ravine, someone placed him there and that person or parties probably has intimate knowledge as to the cause of his death.
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Old 05-11-2013, 09:45 AM   #38
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"One weird thing though: wasn't he found shirtless? And no shoes? This was in November in Ohio, which is not warm. Even being in someone's basement at that time of year he probably would have froze his nurples off."


It was in October 1981, but I get your point.

Kurt had on a yellow sleeveless T-shirt, blue jeans, and had a jacket with him (probably had it on earlier in the day and took it off at the duplex) when he went to the duplex party on Harvard Avenue. Samuel Carroll, Kurt's "friend", used the whole Kurt's-mom-getting-his jacket-back to fabricate that whole story about Kurt going outside drunk and Samuel going to get Kurt's jacket and Kurt wandering off, IMO. I don't think Kurt ever had that kind of moment that night. I think he just drank way too much (probably the Everclear he bought with who knows what else) too fast and went into a coma.


To another poster above, Eugene Kvet was a teenager at the time of his death. For some reason, Unsolved Mysteries just showed a photo of him several years before his death when he was a child (maybe his family or even schools didn't take a lot of photos ?).

Last edited by Steve W.; 05-11-2013 at 12:15 PM.
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Old 05-11-2013, 11:02 AM   #39
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"One weird thing though: wasn't he found shirtless? And no shoes? This was in November in Ohio, which is not warm. Even being in someone's basement at that time of year he probably would have froze his nurples off."


It was in October 1981, but I get your point.

Kurt had on a yellow sleeveless T-shirt, blue jeans, and had a jacket with him (probably had it on earlier in the day and took it off at the duplex) when he went to the duplex party on Harvard Avenue. Samuel Carroll, Kurt's "friend", used the whole Kurt's-mom-getting-his jacket-back to fabricate that whole story about Kurt going outside drunk and Samuel going to get Kurt's jacket and Kurt wandering off, IMO. I don't think Kurt ever had that kind of moment that night. I think he just drank way too much (probably the Everclear he bought with who knows what else) too fast and went into a coma.


To another poster above, Eugen Kvet was a teenager at the time of his death. For some reason, Unsolved Mysteries just showed a photo of him several years before his death when he was a child (maybe his family or even schools didn't take a lot of photos ?).
It's also possible that UM didn't attain the family of Eugene Kvet's cooperation in putting together the segment which is why they only had access to the picture that they did. Perhaps maybe even the Sovas provided the photo of Kvet to UM that they ended up using?

If you read the other more detailed thread on this case, you'll note a post by crystaldawn where she states that she had some interaction with a friend of Kvet who stated that Kvet's death could've been linked to gang violence. According to this individual both himself and Kvet were being harassed by gang members around the time of Kvet's death

This individual mentioned that both he and Kvet used to ditch school together regularly and meet up near the area where Eugene's body was eventually found. In fact according to this individual, the cause of Eugene's death was that he went to the ravine (or "the falls" as he described it) and apparently fell in. He mentioned that he was supposed to have accompanied Eugene to the ravine on this occasion but ultimately decided not to.
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Old 05-11-2013, 10:56 PM   #40
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Yep, a yellow sleeveless shirt. I just rewatched the segment. Perhaps I was getting him mixed up with another Kurt....Kurt Mcfall.

I don't know, that one partiers statement that he discovered Sova passed out and took him outside to get fresh air and left him hanging on the fence, and went to get his jacket and when he came back Sova was gone doesn't sound implausible to me. Sova was found without his jacket, so I don't think it's entirely impossible that he wandered off. A huge question is where is that jacket?

One thing that leads me to believe that nobody at the party killed Kurt was that "Susan" called the Sova residence at 3:30 in the morning on the day he would be found and stated Kurt was sleeping in her basement, which prompted Kurt's dad to go over there. If anyone living at the apartment was guilty of Kurt's death, I can't imagine they would practically ask for the crime scene to be investigated like that. And even though Kurt wasn't there when his dad got there, the dad was still able to go through things.

I think we're missing a huge piece of the puzzle on this one.
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Old 05-12-2013, 07:15 AM   #41
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"I don't know, that one partiers statement that he discovered Sova passed out and took him outside to get fresh air and left him hanging on the fence, and went to get his jacket and when he came back Sova was gone doesn't sound implausible to me. Sova was found without his jacket, so I don't think it's entirely impossible that he wandered off. A huge question is where is that jacket?"


That was Kurt's "friend" Samuel Carroll that stated that. That's probably why they used that story: because it seems possible but I believe it was fabricated so the authorities wouldn't be as inclined to trace him back to the duplex (where I believe he was the whole time) and would go looking around for him instead.

Kurt's mom recovered his jacket the first time she went over to the duplex to investigate. The people there must have decided to stick to that story and let her find that, but didn't let her find Kurt in the basement (or wherever they were hiding him).



"One thing that leads me to believe that nobody at the party killed Kurt was that "Susan" called the Sova residence at 3:30 in the morning on the day he would be found and stated Kurt was sleeping in her basement, which prompted Kurt's dad to go over there. If anyone living at the apartment was guilty of Kurt's death, I can't imagine they would practically ask for the crime scene to be investigated like that. And even though Kurt wasn't there when his dad got there, the dad was still able to go through things."


The only thing I could think of why she would do that is that she felt guilty of about letting him die there. However, I think she or the other people living there (or associates of people living there) already had moved his body from the basement elsewhere (either concealed somewhere like a trunk of a car or maybe they placed him in the ravine on Tuesday evening, after Kurt's dad had skimmed through there).
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Old 05-12-2013, 08:30 AM   #42
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The only thing I could think of why she would do that is that she felt guilty of about letting him die there. However, I think she or the other people living there (or associates of people living there) already had moved his body from the basement elsewhere (either concealed somewhere like a trunk of a car or maybe they placed him in the ravine on Tuesday evening, after Kurt's dad had skimmed through there).
Yeah in my opinion there was definitely some second guessing going on in the moments before Ken Sova arrived at the duplex after Susan called him. I think Dorothy Sova is 100% on the money when she speaks of the individuals panicking and putting Kurt's body in the ravine rather than allowing her husband to find his dead body in the basement. I think they were hoping that by relocating his body it would take suspicion off the duplex as the place where Kurt Sova actually expired.

Remember when the authorities found Kurt's body it was put in a position where it looked as it had been deliberately placed where it lay which of course is what I believe to be the absolute truth in the matter.
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Old 05-12-2013, 11:02 PM   #43
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In the other Kurt Sova thread, I read that Samuel Caroll stated he believed one possibility was that Kurt got picked up by someone during the moments he was gone upstairs to get the jacket. I think that's entirely possible: perhaps the perp (if Kurt was killed) wasn't at the party per se, but stopped by, offered Kurt a ride home or whatever, and Kurt was too out of it to make a good judgement and accepted. I get bad feelings off these gang members, as well as "The Crazy from Detroit." It's another reason why I can't 100% believe someone at the party was responsible. Parties tend to have people coming and going all the time, so it's not out of the question by a long shot.

Now correct me if I'm wrong, but as far as the 3:30 a.m. call goes, wasn't Susan uncertain as to if that was Kurt or not? Granted it does seem strange that somebody wouldn't know who was sleeping in their apartment, but it sounds like this complex had a lot of people passing in and out from the sounds of it. Perhaps it wasn't Kurt and the guy just got up and left?

I'm not saying that the partiers that night aren't 100% crime-free. It's pretty obvious there were some illegal activities going on there that night, mostly in regards to underage drinking and what not. But there's too many unanswered questions for me to be comfortable in accusing them of offing Kurt.

@Dante: O/T, but I just picked up Facts of Life season 1 and Diff'rent Strokes season 1, so I get to see Edna Garrett from the very start. I watched the first episodes of each. Pretty wild to think Molly Ringwald didn't make the cut.
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Old 05-12-2013, 11:33 PM   #44
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@Dante: O/T, but I just picked up Facts of Life season 1 and Diff'rent Strokes season 1, so I get to see Edna Garrett from the very start. I watched the first episodes of each. Pretty wild to think Molly Ringwald didn't make the cut.
She wasn't the Molly Ringwald we would all come to know and love from the John Hughes films yet though. Plus her character on FOL was god awful. She was a pint sized militant feminist and super annoying to boot. Earlier on in the decade "The Partridge Family" tried out a similar type character with Susan Dey before wisely dropping the militant feminist aspect of her character almost entirely a few episodes into the first season.
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Old 05-13-2013, 12:01 AM   #45
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She wasn't the Molly Ringwald we would all come to know and love from the John Hughes films yet though. Plus her character on FOL was god awful. She was a pint sized militant feminist and super annoying to boot. Earlier on in the decade "The Partridge Family" tried out a similar type character with Susan Dey before wisely dropping the militant feminist aspect of her character almost entirely a few episodes into the first season.
OT: Please pardon me for kind of injecting myself into y'all's conversation, but I also had to attest to how annoying Molly Ringwald's character was on the first season of FOL--it's been years, but I went through the whole thing when it was available on demand by my then-cable provider. I clearly remember her carrying around a guitar on a couple of episodes and singing some memorably irritating "protest songs." I think the sole act of writing out Molly and the other three girls saved that show from certain death.

Quote:
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In the other Kurt Sova thread, I read that Samuel Caroll stated he believed one possibility was that Kurt got picked up by someone during the moments he was gone upstairs to get the jacket. I think that's entirely possible: perhaps the perp (if Kurt was killed) wasn't at the party per se, but stopped by, offered Kurt a ride home or whatever, and Kurt was too out of it to make a good judgement and accepted. I get bad feelings off these gang members, as well as "The Crazy from Detroit." It's another reason why I can't 100% believe someone at the party was responsible. Parties tend to have people coming and going all the time, so it's not out of the question by a long shot.
I never knew what to make of that "they're gonna find him dead in two days and no one's going to know how he died" comment. If that's a true story--and I don't see any compelling reason to believe that she was making it up--how else could he have known all that information if he wasn't involved, or knew who was involved and the details concerning the event?

Second only to its refusal to accept help from Cleveland PD or Cuyahoga County SD and the lame attempt to even so much as build a workable case file on Kurt's death, I think this is the biggest mistake NHPD made: letting that dude go without further questioning.
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