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Old 10-19-2017, 02:49 AM   #61
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One thing I’ve always loved about the UM segment on this case: Knot Expert.

How the hell do you really get THAT title? Can you get a PhD in knots? I’ll bet that persons parents are proud:

Family friend “You must be so proud of Timmy, going to school for 8 years, even if it did cost $150,000. What did he get his PhD in again?”

Parent: “Knots”
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Old 10-19-2017, 08:00 AM   #62
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Knot Expert, maybe they can but can someone like me (not a knot expert) tie that knot as fast?
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Old 10-19-2017, 08:23 AM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Guardian
One thing I’ve always loved about the UM segment on this case: Knot Expert.

How the hell do you really get THAT title? Can you get a PhD in knots? I’ll bet that persons parents are proud:

Family friend “You must be so proud of Timmy, going to school for 8 years, even if it did cost $150,000. What did he get his PhD in again?”

Parent: “Knots”
It's probably part of a cluster of things you have to learn in police training or some kind of investigative work. But that's just a guess on my part.

janiesue does bring up a good point, however. The knot expert at the inquest showed how quickly he could hogtie himself in a span of two minutes. That's fine and good if you're a knot expert. But if you're a regular everyday schmo like me, you're not going to know what the hell you're doing.

Add in the fact that you've got roughly 90 tablets of flurazepam and morphine in your system and you have just minutes left before losing consciousness and you can STILL successfully hogtie yourself...that's kind of asking a lot to believe.
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Old 10-19-2017, 08:37 AM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dynoguy88
It's probably part of a cluster of things you have to learn in police training or some kind of investigative work. But that's just a guess on my part.

janiesue does bring up a good point, however. The knot expert at the inquest showed how quickly he could hogtie himself in a span of two minutes. That's fine and good if you're a knot expert. But if you're a regular everyday schmo like me, you're not going to know what the hell you're doing.

Add in the fact that you've got roughly 90 tablets of flurazepam and morphine in your system and you have just minutes left before losing consciousness and you can STILL successfully hogtie yourself...that's kind of asking a lot to believe.
#truth: this is what gets me every-time I go back and forth...
1. Did she know how to "hog tie her self"
2. was she fast enough to do it before the med kicked in
3. How many times did HE practice this before showing how it was done
4. Did she practice
5. How would she know if she had time to do this after the med. I know she was a nurse BUT everyone response to med differently. Being such a high dose it is not like she could practice and time her self. It was a one time shot to get it right
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Old 10-19-2017, 06:02 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by janiesue
#truth: this is what gets me every-time I go back and forth...
1. Did she know how to "hog tie her self"
2. was she fast enough to do it before the med kicked in
3. How many times did HE practice this before showing how it was done
4. Did she practice
5. How would she know if she had time to do this after the med. I know she was a nurse BUT everyone response to med differently. Being such a high dose it is not like she could practice and time her self. It was a one time shot to get it right
I'll have to go back and check Neal Hall's book, but if I remember correctly, the knots weren't that tight. If she really had been "hog tied" to prevent movement, it is likely they would have been tighter. This was one of the reasons they thought she may have tied herself up.

As for the medication, if she took it orally as suspected, she may have had quite a while before it became debilitating. IV medication would kick it pretty fast but oral medication would take a while, giving her more than enough time.

As someone else, it's hard to put too much stock in the knot expert as Cindy likely had a much different background. I'm sure she could have practiced quite a bit if she wanted to. If she did it to herself, I doubt she came up with this plan on the spur of the moment. There is still also the possibility that someone else did this to her with her consent (in an attempt to get attention).

A lot of people are hung up on the actual scene where the body was found, and all of the inconsistencies there. I agree -- but also don't forget how bizarre the alleged abduction scene was, and how little evidence of an actual stranger abduction was there. UM didn't go into any detail on this, but Neal Hall goes over it in great detail in his book. That scene was almost certainly staged. As with almost everything in this case, nothing makes a whole lot of sense.
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Old 10-19-2017, 08:55 PM   #66
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This information comes directly from Neal Hall's book. The information was takin from the Coroners Inquest/Cause of Death hearing.

Robert Chisnell, a "knot expert" was brought into the courtroom to testify and explain the knots/ligatures that were found at the death scene.

He stated the knots that were found on Cindy's hands and feet were in the form of a "slip loop." (A slip loop knot requires no great skill to tie, it is common in the fishing sport and used to tie fishing lures and fishing hooks)

He stated that the knots were then used to form a "box arrangement". (The box arrangement is exactly as it sounds, its formation is common to secure birthday presents, christmas presents, cake boxes etc. It can be formed using twine, ribbon, rope etc.)

He also testified that the "stockings" that were used to form the slip loop knots around Cindy's wrists and ankles were "loose enough to be slipped off."

He then demonstrated all of this in front of the jury, the entire jury actually stood to watch the demonstration. Using the same measurements found on the ligatures/knots Chisnell first began by tying the stocking ligature around his neck, he then tied the "slip loops" and slid his arms and hands into the loops to complete the formation, to complete the demonstration he then laid on the floor with his arms/legs tied behind his back and the ligature still around his neck. The entire process took 3 minutes.

He also stated that the measurements of his own neck were larger than Cindy's. The ligature measurement was the same as the ligature found on Cindy, it did not "impede" his breathing. He was still able to communicate/breathe during the demonstration.
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Old 10-20-2017, 01:07 AM   #67
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Okay, so the knot expert (I’m sorry but I am still laughing at the importance that title suggests), could do it. And they were simple knots that Cindy could have done.

But what about the instances where she received phone calls with others present? Or where prowlers were heard outside when her friends were present? She had to have an accomplice at the very least. Who was this person? It seems her circle of friends was likely small given the circumstances. So the list of suspects here would be short. Just seems unlikely to me in the end that she staged the entire thing. Some instances, maybe. But not all.
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Old 10-20-2017, 08:52 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by Guardian
Okay, so the knot expert (I’m sorry but I am still laughing at the importance that title suggests), could do it. And they were simple knots that Cindy could have done.

But what about the instances where she received phone calls with others present? Or where prowlers were heard outside when her friends were present? She had to have an accomplice at the very least. Who was this person? It seems her circle of friends was likely small given the circumstances. So the list of suspects here would be short. Just seems unlikely to me in the end that she staged the entire thing. Some instances, maybe. But not all.
I think many of us believe this was likely a combination of real and staged incidents (as RobinW laid out in “The Trail Went Cold” podcast).

Oddly enough, there are almost no verifiable accounts of other people being there. A couple of times the Woodcock’s (Cindy’s friends) claim to have seen someone in the area near the time of an attack. A couple people witnessed Cindy get a call or claim to have picked up her phone and heard nothing — but those could be faked or just a coincidence. Cindy would claim to here noises, yet they weren’t necessarily signs of an attacker. But there are no instances when it can be proven that it was without a doubt someone else doing this. And therein lies the problem.

Remember, this went on for YEARS, often with many months in between. Her phone lines were cut more times than the police could count. So someone had it out for her so bad that they dedicated their life to harassing Cindy... or she was orchestrating this herself.

I do think this was likely started by someone else and then Cindy grew frustrated with the police so it took on a life of its own. I agree with dynoguy88 that the police blew this case. Had they done a better job in the beginning, Cindy would still be alive and she’d have received the medical help she needed.
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Old 10-20-2017, 09:32 AM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Todd Mueller
I do think this was likely started by someone else and then Cindy grew frustrated with the police so it took on a life of its own. I agree with dynoguy88 that the police blew this case. Had they done a better job in the beginning, Cindy would still be alive and she’d have received the medical help she needed.
I'm always going to ride the fence on this case. I can't conclusively choose one side over the other.

But sometimes thinking about her orchestrating the whole thing can, at times, be just as disturbing as the thought of some crazy tormenting her. The process of staging such incidents year after year after year would have consumed every moment of her life. And they would have become extra difficult to pull off once the Woodcocks were living with her full time.

Those cut and paste letters/posters would have taken a tedious amount of time to make. Climbing a ladder in her backyard to cut her phone lines dozens of times. Unscrewing her porch lamps.

All those times her garden was vandalized, dead cats were thrown in her yard. Most of them with cords tied around their necks. Would that mean Cindy was constantly driving the neighborhood looking for cats to kill? My head spins just trying to picture such a thing.
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Old 10-20-2017, 01:27 PM   #70
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If she was doing this to her self, why kill her self now? What was the point?

There are some much better ways she could have ended this. One being, if she truly wanted to kill her self why not stage it with a letter from the (stalker). It would have been another slap in the police face that way.

If she was doing this to her self I can not see her plan was to die, it could have been another staged attack that went to far, thinking she would have been found sooner?
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Old 10-20-2017, 07:56 PM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by janiesue
If she was doing this to her self, why kill her self now? What was the point?

There are some much better ways she could have ended this. One being, if she truly wanted to kill her self why not stage it with a letter from the (stalker). It would have been another slap in the police face that way.

If she was doing this to her self I can not see her plan was to die, it could have been another staged attack that went to far, thinking she would have been found sooner?
Shortly before Cindy disappeared it was reported that Cindy's friends were leaving her "en masse". Investigators and Doctors agreed that Cindy may have felt "abandoned" due to losing the majority of her "support system." Why, in a fairly short amount of time would some of Cindy's friends remove themselves from her life? Some excuses were that they were changing jobs or going on "holiday"/vacation. For whatever reason some of Cindy's friends removed themselves from the situation.


Another important fact that alot of people are unaware of. In April of 1989 several weeks before Cindy disappeared RCMP Investigator Anderson installed a "secret" video camera in the shed of one of Cindy's Neighbors. His name was Ted Jamieson. The camera was focused directly on the back of Cindy's residence and would record 24/7. Mr. Jamieson was the only "civilian" at the time who was supposed to know about this camera. Obviously the plan was to seek the cooperation from more of Cindy's neighbors to allow "secret" cameras to be placed on their properties so Cindy's residence could be monitored from different angles 24/7. As Anderson was working out the kinks of these secret cameras Cindy disappeared.


So, in the last few weeks before Cindy's disappearance some of her "support system" left "en masse." Why???? Why would some of her closest friends suddenly "leave" all around the same time?? Apparently not just leave but remove themselves from her life?? I believe Cindy found out about the secret cameras that law enforcement were putting up around her residence. I wouldnt be surprised if a neighbor told her. She cant suddenly move out, considering she had told several people she wasnt going to "run" anymore. She cant lash out at the police or her neighbors due to these secret cameras because all they have to say is they were attempting to "help." All this occuring in a short period of time, did it push Cindy to her breaking point?? With these cameras in place and her neighbors suddenly involved more than ever a real attack or real incident would easily be discovered. If Cindy was faking attacks etc this would easily be discovered as well. All this occurs within a few weeks of Cindy's disappearance.
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Old 10-23-2017, 07:49 AM   #72
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So before bed this pop's in my head

The blood in the car. Where did it come from???
If you say Cindy, then how? Did she have any cuts? Fat lip?

In-order to have blood you have to have a injury for the blood to come from. If there is no injury for the blood then I have to go to she did this to her self and the (needle) mark was to drawl blood and placed it in the car.
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Old 10-23-2017, 01:00 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by janiesue
So before bed this pop's in my head

The blood in the car. Where did it come from???
If you say Cindy, then how? Did she have any cuts? Fat lip?

In-order to have blood you have to have a injury for the blood to come from. If there is no injury for the blood then I have to go to she did this to her self and the (needle) mark was to drawl blood and placed it in the car.
Small correction; the blood was on the outside, on the drivers side door. I think specifically on the door handle, but I can't remember exactly. I'd have to check the book.
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Old 10-23-2017, 04:18 PM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by janiesue
So before bed this pop's in my head

The blood in the car. Where did it come from???
If you say Cindy, then how? Did she have any cuts? Fat lip?

In-order to have blood you have to have a injury for the blood to come from. If there is no injury for the blood then I have to go to she did this to her self and the (needle) mark was to drawl blood and placed it in the car.

Dynoguy88 is correct. The blood was found on the outside of the vehicle. it was found on the drivers side door handle. No blood was found on the ground or inside the vehicle etc.

According to Agnes Woodcock, Cindy always attempted to park as close as possible to buildings, banks etc. On this day she parked further out in the parking lot, away from the buildings.

Tracy Mclean who saw Cindy that day stated she seemed "fixated" on parking where she did. She did not report seeing anyone suspicious in the area.

Just like all of the other attacks no one saw or heard anything.

RCMP Investigator Anderson stated "Its a very poor spot to do an abduction."

Pathologist Sheila Carlyle testified that the small needle mark found on Cindys arm was probably a "blood collection site" rather than an injection site.
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Old 10-24-2017, 07:08 AM   #75
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Here's the deal. From the photos I've seen of Cindy, a reasonable person would most likely consider her an attractive woman. If Cindy wasn't a good looking woman, this case would not have garnered the attention that it has. I have always felt Cindy was seriously mentally ill and there were no perpetrators involved. It was all one giant cry for help
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