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Old 10-12-2017, 06:22 AM   #31
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As a Licensed Private Detective in the corrupt and nearly bankrupt state of Illinois it is my professional opinion this poor woman was mentally ill for a long time and committed suicide.
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Old 10-12-2017, 11:05 AM   #32
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As a Licensed Private Detective in the corrupt and nearly bankrupt state of Illinois it is my professional opinion this poor woman was mentally ill for a long time and committed suicide.
Nice credentials, but I don't know how that supports the concept of suicide?

Again, someone needs to explain how a heavily drugged woman ties herself up in a complicated knot assembly near the point of death?

That, to me, clinches the idea of there being someone else (or multiple people) involved.
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Old 10-12-2017, 01:36 PM   #33
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Again, someone needs to explain how a heavily drugged woman ties herself up in a complicated knot assembly near the point of death?

That, to me, clinches the idea of there being someone else (or multiple people) involved.
Neal Hall goes into great detail about this in his book about Cindy James. The knots weren't that tight, and while being a bit odd, it was certainly possible for Cindy to apply to herself. Depending HOW the drugs got into Cindy's system would determine how long it took for them to take effect. This has always been in dispute. If they were injected, she likely would have been under the influence a lot quicker than if she swallowed pills.

The scene of Cindy's alleged abduction doesn't make sense from a stranger abduction scenario. There are several signs that point to a staged scene. (This is not the scene where her body was found, but where her car was found.)

I have no doubt that Cindy could have staged the scene where her body was found. However, it is really odd that her body was not found more quickly, and there was also a lack of things you might expect to find in the area had she done it to herself.

There is certainly a possibility that another person helped Cindy stage the scene -- but who and why? I've always wondered if she did do it to herself, did she really mean to kill herself or was this another attempt to get attention?

Another good aspect of Neal Hall's book is the pattern of these events. Taken individually, this sounds like a horrible campaign of terror and some of these events are brutal. But when you look at the pattern and realize these events happened over YEARS and sometimes went many months between events, it doesn't make sense. Who would stalk someone for so long and yet take such huge breaks off? These also tended to happen around other significant or troubling events in Cindy's life.

What makes this case so fascinating (and frustrating) is the amount of evidence that points both ways, and no clear answers. In any case, Cindy was clearly a troubled woman and my heart goes out to her. She really needed help and sadly never got the exact help she needed.
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Old 10-12-2017, 02:58 PM   #34
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Nice credentials, but I don't know how that supports the concept of suicide?

Again, someone needs to explain how a heavily drugged woman ties herself up in a complicated knot assembly near the point of death?

That, to me, clinches the idea of there being someone else (or multiple people) involved.

I recall the theory presented was that she injected herself and while the drugs kicked in tied the knots etc. I can't remember though if they found the needle at the site?
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Old 10-12-2017, 09:48 PM   #35
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I recall the theory presented was that she injected herself and while the drugs kicked in tied the knots etc. I can't remember though if they found the needle at the site?
They did not.
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Old 10-12-2017, 10:40 PM   #36
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That's what I thought. Maybe she could have tied herself up waiting for the injected drugs to take effect, but also dispose of the needle in such a way it was never found and then tie herself up? That seems unlikely.
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Old 10-13-2017, 01:03 AM   #37
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There is so much information in Neal Hall's book that isnt included in the UM segment. After reading it, I believe Cindy was responsible for the "attacks" and eventually commited suicide due to severe mental illness. Sad to say but I believe true.
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Old 10-13-2017, 03:04 AM   #38
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...but if that's the case (and I'm not saying it's not what happened), WHY did it take so long for her body to be discovered?

I've said it before. The lack of needles at the scene and the location where her body was ultimately discovered are the two aspects of the case I can't ignore...
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Old 10-13-2017, 12:55 PM   #39
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Poor Cindy. I get so tired of the victim-blaming. :-/
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Old 10-13-2017, 02:41 PM   #40
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Couldn't she have taken the drugs orally? I believe she was on morphine as well as other sedatives. All of which can be taken by mouth.

Also, she was found on the lot of an abandoned building. She could have very easily ventured in amongst the brush by herself, had the cords ready to tie herself, and then taken the drugs (which, it should be assumed, she knew of dosing information, amount of time until onset, etc. because of her medical background).

I am still on the fence with this case, but I'm not sure why location of her body and the lack of a needle present further the homicide theory. Clue me in...
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Old 10-13-2017, 03:00 PM   #41
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I'm pretty sure, just from memory, there were injection marks on the body.

IV narcotics aren't slow acting. So the idea that she tied herself up after injecting herself is already a stretch, but to have also apparently run around and hidden the needle so well that it has never surfaced seems improbable.

The field, for me, for someone who did all that she did for attention (per the theory) it doesn't add up she'd go missing and be found in an isolated rural location.
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Old 10-13-2017, 05:19 PM   #42
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This is a case that the UM broadcast didn't do justice to. That is NOT a criticism of UM -- it is just such a complicated case that there is no way to cover everything in 15-20 minutes and tell enough of the story.

Keep in mind, Cindy admitted that she was "withholding information." She never said what that was, but after years of attacks and coming close to being killed more than once, she still wouldn't share everything.

As for whether the drugs were ingested (swallowed) or injected, here is a section from Neal Hall's book "The Deaths of Cindy James":

Pathologist Sheila Carlyle testified that, because of the state of decomposition of the body, it was difficult to determine whether the overdoses of morphine and flurazepam had been administered orally or by injection.

The flurazepam was ingested orally, she believed, since tablets were found in the contents of her stomach. She also believed it was likely that the morphine was ingested. The needle mark was probably a "blood collection site" rather than evidence of an injection -- blood might have been withdrawn from Cindy's arm and perhaps squirted on her car to make it look as if she had been abducted. The blood on the car was tested and found to be the same group type as Cindy's.
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Old 10-13-2017, 06:20 PM   #43
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Here are a few facts/quotes takin from the investigators, doctors etc during the cause of death hearing/investigation.


Constable Jerry Anderson testified that he had spoken with Cindys Psychiatrist Dr. Friesen. He stated that Dr. Friesen told him that the "patient was fixated on her ex-husband and had pent-up anger towards her father." He also stated that "two weeks before her disappearance Cindy was in good spirits." He indicated that his experience with suicides happy behavior indicates a person has set a course of action to carry out a suicide. He also noted Cindys friends and colleagues were leaving "en-masse" which may have made Cindy feel abandoned.

Constable Jerry Anderson stated in regards to the threatening messages left on the answering machine he said "I believe that is Cindy on the tape." He did acknowledge that he was not a voice comparison expert. The tapes, along with known recordings of Cindys voice were sent to the FBI in Washington DC, they were then sent to a specialist at the Psycholinguistcs Centre in New York named, M.Miron. He concluded that there were "obvious similarities" in the voice on the tape and Cindys known voice. He was unable to conclude any "source" due to the voice "distortion". Tille Hack was also questioned regarding her thoughts of the voice on the tape, during the hearing when asked if she thought that was Cindy's voice. She replied "oh my god, no." She was then reminded that she had told Coroners Investigator Pat Costello that the voice on the tape "could be" Cindy. She admitted she had said this and stated. "It could be Cindy, it could be anybody."


Anderson testified he interviewed one of Ozzie Kaban's employees named Steve Cox, he worked for Kaban's PI agency. He stated Cindy was "always aware when surveillance was in place at her home." Cox stated sometimes when he "radioed" the office that he was off duty and heading home Cindy would then call the office to report a "prowler." Nothing was ever found. He also stated that looking back he wished he had radioed he was off duty for the night but then stuck around to see what would happen but he never did. He also noted that a security camera had been placed on one side of Cindys home, shortly after it was in place Cindy reported all the "occurances" were now taking place on the opposite side of the home, away from the camera.

Anderson testified that:

Flurazepam was found in Cindys system, the amount found was "10 times that of a lethal dose." Flurazepam is a sedative.

Morphine was found in Cindys system, the morphine level was also "10 times" the level needed to cause death.

It was confirmed Cindy had access to these medications on the hospital ward in which she worked. When asked how Cindy could obtain these medications since narcotics are secured and recorded. Anderson stated he was informed by several sources of a process called "short changing". A patients medication is takin or replaced. This is not uncommon and still occurs today. Anderson also stated he was informed Cindy could have remained concious for up to 30 minutes if the medications were takin orally. (Others have stated 15-30mins)

Pathologist Sheila Carlyle testified that the flurazepam was ingested orally. Tablets were found in her stomach. She also stated it was "likely" the morphine was ingested orally as well.


Knot expert Robert Chisnell testified regarding the ligatures found on Cindys body. He stated the knots were all loose enough to easily be slipped off. He re-created the scene in the courtroom using the same knots/ligatures used on Cindy. It took 3 minutes. He concluded and testified "self tying" was the likely explanation.

I tried to include things that were obviously not really covered or covered in great deal on the UM segment. There is alot more information as well included in the book.
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Old 10-13-2017, 08:36 PM   #44
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Quote:
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Keep in mind, Cindy admitted that she was "withholding information." She never said what that was, but after years of attacks and coming close to being killed more than once, she still wouldn't share everything.
Ironically, this bit of information is only provided by the UM segment. The exact quotes are when Stack says...

"Ten weeks later, Cindy left the hospital. She finally admitted to her family and friends that she had been withholding information."

And Agnes Woodcock added....

"She said when it's all over, I'll explain everything to you but I can't tell you right now."

I've read Neal Hall's book multiple times (though it's been a little while) and I don't remember him ever mentioning Cindy admitting to her loved ones that she had been withholding information any time after her hospital stay. And that's ironic because every question you had after originally watching the segment is answered in the book in major detail. I wonder why not this?
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Old 10-14-2017, 09:30 AM   #45
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And that's ironic because every question you had after originally watching the segment is answered in the book in major detail. I wonder why not this?
Youíre right. IIRC, I donít think it was said in those terms exactly. I do remember one of her psychiatrists saying she would never fully open up to him. He focused more on trying to talk about her past and what was the root of all of this (likely some sort of physical and/or sexual abuse).

I think Cindy used those vague threats as a way to not explain everything to the police. Itís too bad because had they done a better job earlier, this case likely would have been solved and poor Cindy wouldnít have suffered so much, no matter who caused this.
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