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Old 03-16-2017, 01:28 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by catsrule
Frasier wasn't the custodial parent. Frederick was primarily Lilith's responsibility.
Wasn't that more or less his choice though?

They could have shared custody but he didn't seem to want that option.
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Old 03-16-2017, 04:34 PM   #17
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Well, no, I agree with you. A child should be the first and foremost thing in the father's mind and priorities. But- keep in mind Lillith. She probably was very overprotective over Freddie and therefore didn't like the idea of Frasier visiting him. And back to the thing about Frasier starting a new life for himself, how is that selfish? He loves his child, but it's certainly forgivable that he didn't want to be around his ex-wife who had custody over Freddie. And plus, Frasier's family was in Seattle. Was he just supposed to drop his own family in favor of his child? I'm all for what you said, but I don't believe it was selfish of him. I believe it was an understandable thing to do.
I think the person who benefitted most from Frasier's decision would have been Litith, because she didn't really have to co-parent. I doubt she would have objected to Frasier leaving Boston.

Just because you don't want to "be around" your ex-wife doesn't mean you have to leave the state, because that way you are also not "around" for your child. Ideally they could have had joint custody and Frasier could have been in Freddie's life as much as Lilith was in Freddie's life. Frasier bailed out of being a full time father to his child. He was a long distance parent solely by choice, not necessity.

As for "dropping" his "own" family, Frasier had lived in Boston for years already. They were already "dropped," if you want to put it that way. They didn't "need" Frasier in their life, they got on fine without him for years. Even the situation with Martin could have been handled differently, he didn't need to live with Frasier.

The show is what it is but there is no way I can say that a man who chose to leave his child behind and move to another state when he could have stayed, continued his career and been present in his child's life, is a "good" father. You put your kid first when you can. Frasier could have put his kid first but he didn't. There's no way I can believe that Frasier put his kid first by moving far, far away from that kid.

Frasier was as good a father he could be considering the fact that he chose to move away and not be a full time dad to his son.
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Old 03-17-2017, 08:48 AM   #18
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One broader thing to consider: Frasier's separation from his son is just one example of a whole web of estrangements among the Crane men. Frasier, of course, stopped seeing his father as soon as his mother died, told the people at Cheers that his father was dead and never mentioned his brother. When Martin tried to introduce Niles to a waitress at McGinty's, she assumed that he was the "Eddie" Martin had talked about. We brush off the "Beware of Greeks" episode as an inconsistency with the rest of the series, but the estrangements from Walt and Nikos are actually very consistent with the Cranes' denial of each others' existence.

The other side of this is the women they marry: Zora the Nazi Strangler, Hester who threatens homicide, the controlling Lillith, the wealthy and manipulative Maris. Even Nikos is on the road to marrying a wealthy woman who obviously doesn't love him. It seems unlikely that these are just random bad life decisions.

You put all of this together, and it seems like the Crane men are in some sort of psychological hiding, separating from one another while each is under the "protection" of a powerful woman. What they are being protected from, we don't know. It seems, though, that sometime after Noah Crane married the Russian girl with the bear clock, something terrible happened in the Crane family, and as the show ends the Crane men, now including Freddy, are still recovering from that.
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Old 03-17-2017, 10:36 AM   #19
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These posts are very thought provoking.

I think that if the show was done today Freddie would have been a bigger part of the proceedings.

Back when it started Mr. Grammer was not the family man he is today. He had some kids by two different women who he saw occasionally but they were estranged from him by his own admission. He didn't seem to be very interested in raising them and I think that attitude rubbed off on his decision to keep Frasier for all practical purposes a single man with no responsibilities to a child.

Today he has a wife named Kayte and they seem to have a stable life with young children they adore.

He had a long marriage to Camille which was very contentious and they both spoke very ill of each other and he left her for the current wife. They also had two children.

As troubled as the Cranes were, Mr. Grammer has them beat by a country mile with his own personal family history which is well documented. His father was murdered. His sister was raped and murdered. His two young half brothers died accidentally. The man had a lot of pain in his life and he caused a lot of pain to those around him by all accounts. He was a notorious alcoholic and drug addict and also went to prison.

I think he was at his best in the first season. You could see him in character seeming very conflicted about his relationship with his father and trying to figure his life out after recovering from Lilith cheating on him and their subsequent painful divorce.

A good final episode could have been Freddie letting him know how much he missed having him as a full time father and Frasier realizing how he dropped the ball with his child and moving back to Boston to repair their relationship. Instead of always finding a way to make HIMSELF happy and fulfilled, he could have focused more on his son and HIS welfare. It must have been painful for that kid to be dropped from his life like that.

Random thought. If Maris was the wealthy one why was NILES paying alimony and going broke? Wouldn't it have been the other way around? Why was it that Daphne, who was portrayed to be a caring and compassionate person seemingly so indifferent to both Donny and Niles new wife's feelings?

Daphne and Niles acted very selfishly at that time and it was hard for me to sympathize with either of them for awhile after that.
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Old 03-17-2017, 01:14 PM   #20
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I could well be wrong about this, but I think Niles's financial problems were legal bills and that Maris had stopped access to all their joint accounts.
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Old 03-17-2017, 01:20 PM   #21
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I loved the Spelling Bee episode !!!
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Old 04-20-2017, 01:42 PM   #22
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Off topic...but not really... the same could be said about Everybody Loves Raymond and how the show really wasn't about the kids as much as it was about the in-laws...am I reaching a little too far? I would have liked to see Freddie in more episodes even though I didn't care for him too much. I don't love the spelling Bee episode, but love the one where he turns Goth out of nowhere, I always spit out my drink when Niles sees Freddie with a Goth girl and says "At least he's dating inside the race".
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Old 04-20-2017, 04:43 PM   #23
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With "Everybody Loves Raymond" the focus may not have been centered on the relationship Ray had with his kids, but he was a constant in the kids' lives. He didn't leave them behind to go live in another city for any reason, so in that sense I don't really see a comparison. On the other hand, Ray wasn't really a hands on dad even though he did live with his kids. He was there, but not always "present." Frasier wasn't there physically all the time but cared about his son's activities and his future and was seen actively trying to participate in his son's life when Freddie visited him or when he visited Frasier.
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Old 04-23-2017, 06:18 PM   #24
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Yeah, I totally get what you're saying but thought I'd bring it up because I always wondered whether Ray was a "Bad" father himself but liked that the show was focused more on the adults lives than the kids. I wonder if there are any interviews out there from the writers or cast talking about whether Fraiser was a good father. I do think that Niles really wasn't an attached uncle, I don't recall him ever really asking for Freddie or giving him a gift for no reason but did find the competitiveness over that Daphne crush pretty cute.
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Old 01-30-2018, 11:19 AM   #25
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I think Frasier was a good father who was selfish at times but sometimes didn't think things straight through. Sure, he was selfish and eccentric, but he loved Freddie very much and whenever Lillith allowed Frasier to even see his own child (this situation probably wouldn't have changed if Frasier had stayed in Boston, maybe only gotten worse). I think the fact that he loved Freddie so much and realized that Lillith was taking good enough care of him that he didn't have to be involved, shows that he was a good enough parent for me. Maybe not for some people who will b*tch about every little thing, but for me.
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Old 01-30-2018, 12:06 PM   #26
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In reality, I’d consider Frasier a father who abandoned his responsibilities of raising his son to move across the country.

But this is TV Land. The writers wanted to get Frasier away from Boston, because had the spinoff been set there, we would have always been expecting Lilith to turn up and for Frasier to pop into Cheers.

I’m guessing that in reality, someone like Frasier wouldn’t have moved away because he would have wanted to be around his son.
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Old 01-30-2018, 01:30 PM   #27
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The same debate over at Reddit....

https://www.reddit.com/r/Frasier/com..._awful_father/
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Old 05-16-2018, 09:39 AM   #28
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Having Frederick often over would have diluted his relationship with the adult Cranes, and I think that was the focus of the show.
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Old 10-20-2018, 02:14 PM   #29
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I agree with all of KatieAnn's posts.
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